[Spoilsport Stonny]

sorrysort, on 20 April 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Do you think the TCG scene where Silchas and Tulas discuss Anomander's "final secret" has any room in this thread? It's probably too long to excerpt unfortunately. But when I re-read TCG I got the distinct feeling that Anomander took possession of the Throne of Shadow as a final measure in the wars, to remove it from play and end all the squabbling of those seeking it (as opposed to sitting in it himself), and had to kill the lone witness Tulas as a safeguard. I also got just the faintest hint that maybe Anomander himself, after all those millennia, was personally involved in the evolution of Kel and Dancer into ST and Cots -- maybe even gifting the real Throne to ST as the ultimate progenitor or conspirator of their longest-term schemes (the non-flitting, actual Kellanved might be sitting there while the smoky one is gallivanting about). Perhaps at the same time Anomander gave him the mysterious Hust sword that ST gives to Silchas, if it was indeed from him. I'm not sure if that fits anything from GotM though, so I could be wrong on the details for sure....but I think this scene shows, somehow, important connective tissue between Kharkanas Trilogy and MBotF.

This conversation?

Quote

‘If I was not bound still – and eternally so, I fear – to this state of undeath, Silchas Ruin, I might take offence at your words.’
‘If you wish, we could still cross blades, you sperm-clouded abomination of darkness.’
Tulas considered the proposition. ‘You are returned to this world, Silchas, leading me to the inescapable conclusion that the Azath do indeed know how to shit.’

It seems to me that sitting on the throne of shadow would most certainly be an appropriate reaction to being spurned by Mother Dark. Especially if he had knowledge of whatever were Edgewalker's misconducts, that would only make the decision easier. Silencing Tulas as a witness makes sense there too. And perhaps having ST sit on the shadow throne would begin the process of healing his/the Andii's relationship with Mother Dark. He obviously had an interest in the Drift Avalii throne, as Andarist was stationed there. Certainly gives him plenty of reason to clean house with Killy on their little slay-date.


THere is also this:

Quote

‘As I would have done for you.’
‘But then Scara—’
‘Curse of the Eleint.’
Silchas nodded. ‘Too easily embraced.’
‘But not you. Not me.’

Their willful regret lends more evidence to Bloodeye succumbing to the chaos of his soletakeness.

[worry]

Yes, I believe it starts in the scene they reunite, but it goes on for several pages of revelation and (naturally) further mystery, as they speculate about Anomander and dance about the issue as friends will do. It's a great scene of course, but these two conclude, and I imagine readers at this point have to know, that Anomander wouldn't have been cruel for its own sake in dispatching Tulas...there's something here about the Throne, Tulas, Edgewalker, Scabi, the chained Eleint trio, and everyone else who sought the throne...and eventually -- at least in my opinion -- Kellanved. Not that Anomander could see the future, but as someone who could think up multiple contingencies and develop others along the way, until someone as impressive as Kel comes along. Anyway, mostly speculation, but I'd get a kick out of it.

[Silk]

I thought it was Edgewalker in NOK who saw the promise of change/allowed the attempt by Kel and Dancer, and also a throw away comment about how ST and COT amuse shadow.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

sorrysort, on 21 April 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

...there's something here about the Throne, Tulas, Edgewalker, Scabi, the chained Eleint trio, and everyone else who sought the throne...and eventually -- at least in my opinion -- Kellanved. Not that Anomander could see the future, but as someone who could think up multiple contingencies and develop others along the way, until someone as impressive as Kel comes along.

It could even be that through their mapping and exploration of the Azath, they came across the history of KE's sundering and they already know that what they rule is but the first layer/level of shadow. This has much to do with Cotillion's conversation with the chained dragons, in that he realizes that there are shadows of shadows. Subsequently, it could be K&D knew of Anomander's rule of Shadow and made a deal with him to take it over. In exchange he warned them of what would happen if they sat on the Throne -- sufferring the same fate as Edgewalker, perhaps. Their first meeting that we get to see in GotM shows a certain familiarity with each other and Rake says he has no qualms about "assailing the Shadow Realm" if they "push" him. Of course that is Shadow Realm, and not Emurlahn, but that's not necessarily the point. There seems to be a very delicate thread keeping these two parties from interfering in each other's machinations. Obviously, they put that aside and work together to get Dassem to send Rake into Dragnipur, but ST was definitely doing some side work at the time, because they knew that had to send the CG back to his home in order to keep the other Gods from using him for his power. Rake also had his extenuating plans as well, too, so this may not have been problematic.

On the other hand, two of the hounds attacked Rake. Would the hounds attack a former ruler of Shadow?

Silk, on 21 April 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

I thought it was Edgewalker in NOK who saw the promise of change/allowed the attempt by Kel and Dancer, and also a throw away comment about how ST and COT amuse shadow.

I would not presume that Edgewalker was any less arrogant than any other ancient elders, and completely underestimates Kellenved and Dancer. If he was so smart, he would be ruling Shadow, not serving it. His arrogance would certainly manifest in his belief that he allowed them to sit on the throne. That said, its definitly clear that some aspects of shadow are not under the complete control of ST. Like when the Edur took command over the Hounds -- in HoC, I think it was -- at the throne on Drift Avalii.

[Silk]

I have a feeling that when everything is said and done one may find that Edgewalker is probably not getting any form of credit that may be due to him...

Loads of big bads and gigantic goods seem to harbour a fear of him in one form or another .... he was after all the mediator in TTH ... with other big shots.....

[worry]

Yah, I have no problem being wrong on the details (my re-read of TCG was completely independent of a series re-read), I just had a gut feeling that Anomander is involved pretty intimately with the fate of the Throne of Shadow (though hasn't sat upon it IMO), as well as with ST and Cots' place in shadow (perhaps TTH's meeting = the fruits of that labor), in a way this conversation casts some light on. But anyway, somebody killed Edgewalker, he's not just chained to the realm like the three Eleint or the folks likes Jhedel attached to the menhirs (but apparently still "alive"), and I'd bet it was Rake. And Silk you may be right, but they were after Shadow already before EW saw what he saw in them; and alternately who knows, maybe Anomander just has respect for EW's opinion. I'd just as soon be wrong if the reality is just as interesting though.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Silk, on 21 April 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

I have a feeling that when everything is said and done one may find that Edgewalker is probably not getting any form of credit that may be due to him...

Loads of big bads and gigantic goods seem to harbour a fear of him in one form or another .... he was after all the mediator in TTH ... with other big shots.....

If I sounded like I was selling EW short, I ssure you I wasn't. His mystery is one of my favorites. In BH, during his talk with Cots in the beginning, he refers to himself as an "elemental force". Beofre that, chained Ampelas refers to "...elemental forces. Moving unseen until the coming of Light. Bound only to their own laws. It is the nature of Darkness that it but rules itself."

EW seems to be this elemental, elder force, probably of Shadow itself. But there is nothing stopping Elder/Azathanai from being cursed, as he is cursed to roam KE. At least the perimeter. That conversation between Cots, Edgewalker and the three chained dragons is awesome in that it reveals SO much, and so little at the same time.

So what is the elemental force of shadow if there is no light to create shadow? It still existed, as Ampelas says. The 'coming of light' was the gift of T'riss through Syntara? That would explain much. Do we ever read of sunsets or sunrises in FoD? I bet everythign was just dark, as "Darkness ruled alone".

[nacht]

Found this in TTH, Endest Sillan reminisces

Quote

'Good evening, priest,' said Andarist, who then added, 'Anomander, it seems you were right.'

'An easy prediction,' Anomander replied. 'The Temple watches me the way a rove of rhotes watch a dying ginaf.'

Endest blinked. The last wild ginaf had vanished a century past and no longer did the silver-backed herds thunder across the south plains; and these days roves of rhotes winged above battlefields and nowhere else – and no, they did not starve. Are you the last, Lord? Is this what you are saying? Mother bless me, I never know what you are saying. No one does. We share language but not meaning.

The third brother was silent, his red eyes fixed upon the forges beneath the western sky.

'The clash between Drethdenan and Vanut Degalla draws to an end,' said Andarist. 'It may be time—'

'Should we be speaking of this?' Silchas Ruin cut in, finally turning to face Endest Silann. 'None of this is for the Temple. Especially not some pathetic third level acolyte.'

Anomander seemed uninterested in settling his attention upon Endest Silann. In the face of his brother's belligerence, he shrugged. 'This way, Silchas, perhaps we can ensure the Temple remains…neutral.'

'By unveiling to it all that we intend? Why should the Temple hold to any particular faith in us? What makes the three of us more worthy of trust than, say, Manalle, or Hish Tulla?'

'There is an obvious answer to that,' said Andarist. 'Priest?'

He could refuse a reply. He could feign ignorance. He was naught but a third level acolyte, after all.

Instead, he said, 'You three are not standing here trying to kill each other.'

Andarist smiled at Silchas Ruin.

Who scowled and looked away once again.

'We have things to discuss,' said Anomander. 'Andarist?'

'I have already sent representatives to both camps. An offer to mediate. Veiled hints of potential alliances against the rest of you.

The key will be in getting Drethdenan and Vanut into the same room, weapons sheathed.'

'Silchas?'

'Both Hish and Manalle have agreed to our pact. Manalle still worries me, brothers. She is no fool—'

'And Hish is?' laughed Andarist – a maddeningly easy laugh, given the treachery they were discussing.

'Hish Tulla is not subtle. Her desires are plain. It is as they all say: she does not lie. No, Manalle is suspicious. After all, I am speaking of the greatest crime of all, the spilling of kin's blood.' He paused, then faced Anomander, and suddenly his expression was transformed. Unease, something bewildered and lit with horror. 'Anomander,' he whispered, 'what are we doing?'

Anomander's features hardened. 'We are strong enough to survive this. You will see.' Then he looked at Andarist. 'The one who will break our hearts stands before us. Andarist, who chooses to turn away.'

'A choice, was it?' At the heavy silence that followed, he laughed again. 'Yes, it was. One of us…it must be, at least one of us, and I have no desire to walk your path. I have not the courage for such a thing. The courage, and the…cruel madness. No, brothers, mine is the easiest task – I am to do nothing.'

'Until I betray you,' said Silchas, and Endest was shocked to see the white-skinned Lord's wet eyes.

'There is no other way through,' said Andarist. Centuries into millennia, Endest Silann would wonder – and never truly know – if all that followed was as these three had planned. Courage, Andarist had called it. And…cruel madness – by theMother, yes – such destruction, the sheer audacity of the treachery – could they have meant all of that?

The next time Anomander had met Endest Silann had been on the bridge at the foot of the Citadel, and in his words he made it clear that he had not recognized him as the same man as the one sent to witness his meeting with his brothers. A strange carelessness for one such as Anomander. Although, unquestionably, the Lord had other things on his mind at that moment.

Endest Silann had delivered to the High Priestess his account of that fell meeting. And in relating the details of the betrayal, such as could be culled from what he had heard – all the implications – he had expected to see outrage in her face. Instead – and, he would think later, with prescient symbolism – she had but turned away.

There had been no storms in the sky then. Nothing to hint of what would come. The blackwood trees of Suruth Common had lived for two millennia, maybe longer, and each season they shed their elongated seeds to the wind. Yet, when next he looked upon those stately trees, they would be on fire.

This post has been edited by nacht: 15 July 2013 - 06:18 PM

[Siergiej]

Just two little thing I just stumbled upon while rereading Deadhouse gates:

Fiddler thinking about Iskaral:

Quote

In a strange way Iskaral Pust reminded the sapper of
Quick Ben, the squad's mage. An endless succession of plans within
plans. He imagined peeling through them one by one, right down to
thumbprint schemes all awhirl in devious patterns. It's quite
possible that his very existence is nothing more than a collection of
if-this and then-that suppositions. Hood's Abyss, maybe that's all
we all are!
The High Priest

And this is when Crokus confronts Iskaral:

Quote

The Daru hesitated; then, with a snarl, he flung Pust away. The
High Priest skidded along the wall, gasping, then straightened and
began adjusting his robe. He spoke in a rasp. 'Precipitous youth! I
am reminded of my own melodramatic gestures when I but toddled
about in Aunt Tulla's yard.

I am well aware that these tidbits probably mean absolutely nothing and the Tulla name is just a coincidence, but wouldn't it be interesting if Iskaral had his roots back in the Tiste aristocracy? If that was true, it would mean darkness was his first aspect, and he joined forces with shadow later on. And that might be the reason why he reminds Fiddler of Quick Ben - the connection between the two may be much deeper than just the way they act. I am trying to remember if Pust and QB met in the series. The only possible moment would The Bonehunters, but I don't recall that happening.

Though, again, don't take that too seriously

[Siergiej]

Sorry for the double post, but my re-read continues, and that's what I stumbled upon in Memories of Ice.

Chapter 22, Lady Envy is explaining to Lanas Tog how Baaljagg, the last Ay alive, became an immortal vessel for the soul of Fanderay:

Quote

The T'lan Imass turned her head. 'Who has granted the beast this
edged gift?'
Lady Envy shrugged, smiling with delight at the opportunity to
return such a gesture. 'A misguided sibling who'd thought he was
being kind. All right, perhaps that was too simplistic an answer. My
sibling had found the goddess, terribly damaged by the Fall, and
needed a warm-blooded place to lay her spirit, so that it could heal.
Serendipity. The ay's pack was dead, whilst she herself was too
young to survive in normal circumstances. Worse yet, she was the
last left on the entire continent.'
'Your sibling has a misplaced sense of mercy, Lady Envy.'

Is it something I missed about the backstory of Baaljagg, or do we have a possible Arathan referemce here? Or Malice. Because it certainly doesn't sound like Sister Spite, though I may be wrong. Sidenote: I am reading in Polish, and then looking for specific quotes in original version, and in the Polish translation Lady Envy speaks not about a "sibling" but about a "brother"

[nacht]

Siergiej, on 17 September 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Sorry for the double post, but my re-read continues, and that's what I stumbled upon in Memories of Ice.

Chapter 22, Lady Envy is explaining to Lanas Tog how Baaljagg, the last Ay alive, became an immortal vessel for the soul of Fanderay:

Quote

The T'lan Imass turned her head. 'Who has granted the beast this
edged gift?'
Lady Envy shrugged, smiling with delight at the opportunity to
return such a gesture. 'A misguided sibling who'd thought he was
being kind. All right, perhaps that was too simplistic an answer. My
sibling had found the goddess, terribly damaged by the Fall, and
needed a warm-blooded place to lay her spirit, so that it could heal.
Serendipity. The ay's pack was dead, whilst she herself was too
young to survive in normal circumstances. Worse yet, she was the
last left on the entire continent.'
'Your sibling has a misplaced sense of mercy, Lady Envy.'

Is it something I missed about the backstory of Baaljagg, or do we have a possible Arathan referemce here? Or Malice. Because it certainly doesn't sound like Sister Spite, though I may be wrong. Sidenote: I am reading in Polish, and then looking for specific quotes in original version, and in the Polish translation Lady Envy speaks not about a "sibling" but about a "brother"

There is some discussion on this in the Arathan page :-) See the post by Jaiden and followup discussion.

http://forum.malazan...an/page__st__60

[Spoilsport Stonny]

It could be wither Spite or Arathan. THe girls are absolute monsters in FoD, but in Bonehunters and Toll the Hounds Spite showed some kindness to the folks on her boat and she also rescued them when the Jade giants destroyed their boat when they left Seven Cities. Still up in the air I suppose.

[Siergiej]

Thanks for the link, didn't notice that discussion before