[Nevyn]

First, I know there are a couple threads about him or discussing him elsewhere. I though I would put this one here, as it will be discussing assuming people have read all the books to date.

Like many, I am very curious as to who Ruthan Guud could be, so I thought I'd put something here where we can get together all the various hints we've seen so far and see if we can make sense of it. Of course, its entirely possible he wasn't in Forge of Darkness and we'll not see him until later.

So I'll start with a list of facts we know about him, where we know it from, etc. Then maybe go through some of the possibilities, and go through the strengths and weaknesses of each. please let me know if I've missed anything or gotten anything wrong.

Ruthan Guud:

• Was once Greymane's adjutant (SW)
• Was given a sword by the stormriders that seems to let him "borrow" stormrider armor (some unnamed female 'answering')
• Has a way with the ladies
• Has a habit of stroking his beard
• He has a "new face" (DoD)
• He knew Draconus before the fall of the crippled god, and went to Jacuruku against his advice.Called 'friend' by Draconus (DoD)
• Was trapped in an Azath house on Jakuruku that was destroyed by the fall of the Crippled God. (DoD)
• Promises (in PoV thought) that if Draconus finds him, one of them will die.
• He also seems to think that Greymane knew and can sense Draconus (DoD again).
• Is called Elder by the T'lan Imass (TCG)
• "Smells of ice" to a T'lan Imass, who thinks he might be Jaghut but has never met one (TCG)
• Denies being an Elder God (TCG)
• Tells Tavore that holding the Otataral Sword would kill him, as he is kept alive by sorcery (TCG)
• Recognizes the name "Ben Adaephon Delat" with emphasis or particular meaning on the last name. (TCG)
• Can sense things like the release of the Otataral Dragon and the freedom of Draconus. (TCG)
• Spends a lot of time trying not to be noticed.

Some popular theories:

Ruthan Guud as Arathan
Supporting evidence:

• Strained relationship with Draconus
• Name quasi similarity
• Face touching
• Tie in to ice (Arathan falls through ice as child, and lives with Gothos)
• Way with the ladies
• Not wanting to be noticed
• Under the theory that Korya Delath is in some way related to Ben Adaephon Delat, would explain knowing him.

Evidence against:

• Would Draconus refer to his son as 'friend'?
• Stroking a beard and chewing fingers not really that similar
• Would Otataral kill Arathan?
• Sleeping with one bordersword under Daddy's orders, and having a Tiste who hasn't seen a non tusked warm body in years attracted to you doesn't make you a ladies man.

Conclusion: Case is shaky at best

Ruthan Guud as Grizzin Farl

Supporting evidence:

• Friend of Draconus
• Elder Azathenai, but was he a god? Only half Azathenai (half Thel Akai).
• Warrior, not known for any sort of magic as of yet
• Definite way with the ladies
• Habit of being "late to battles", etc

Evidence against:

• Again, would Otataral be a threat to him?
• No real relationship to ice
• Errastas believes Grizzin Farl to be dead. Says his corporeal body is gone at least or something like that. Maybe this could be the "new body" which would explain needing sorcery to live ... but kind of odd.
• Cotillion references Grizzin Farl as if he was known as an Elder God, and speculates an altar for blood worship could have been to him. If you're receiving blood worship, you're an elder god.
• Complicates the question of who is Greymane ...

If there are other compelling theories, we can do similar lists for them, too.

Some other thoughts of mine of possibilities (but not worthy of pro/con lists yet):

• Ruthan Guud could be a Jaghut who has been given a human's body (happened with Pannion). It would explain him knowing the characters and the stormrider relationship, would make him elder but mortal. But never uses Omtose Phellack, most of the older Jaghut we know are accounted for, and you'd think the unbound would sniff him out as one even with the new body.
• Under the theory that we didn't yet meet him in FoD, it is possible that he knew Draconus, and travelled to Jacuruku BEFORE FoD begins (we know there is already a High King). This is interesting because he has to be trapped before the fall of the Crippled God, and it is possible that this event will be tackled in the Kharkanas trilogy.
• Ruthan Guud could be one of the tiste or one of the dog runners (or a bordersword) we have met in FoD, and something yet to occur could prolong his life. Not sure how the Imass would know he was elder, but could be.

[worry]

Funny you read GF as half-Thel Akai, half-Azathanai. Can you say only "half" Azathanai? Are they a distinct species? They could be drawn from other existing species to worship of the mysterious Azath -- "priests" of the Azath, used loosely, predating of course the Nameless Ones -- which grants them all sorts of powers/longevity. Now I'm curious how everybody else read that!

[Nevyn]

worrywort, on 29 March 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Funny you read GF as half-Thel Akai, half-Azathanai. Can you say only "half" Azathanai? Are they a distinct species? They could be drawn from other existing species to worship of the mysterious Azath -- "priests" of the Azath, used loosely, predating of course the Nameless Ones -- which grants them all sorts of powers/longevity. Now I'm curious how everybody else read that!

Good question. I guess its my assumption and could be wrong, certainly.

But those among them (and their children and part children) seem to have distinct traits that don't apply to the other species. Such as nearly dying triggering growth and power spurts (as Envy and Spite are discovering and recalling). We really don't know much for sure yet, though.

It seems like some Azathenai have "aspects' (such as Draconus, Suzerain of Night). Do all of them? We don't know. Some of them also seem linked to races. Are some linked to races and others aspects? Or are they linked to races that embody their aspects (Kilmandaros could be 'order' or something like that, explaining her racial link and her hatred of Dragons).

They have their own language. According to T'riss 'Azat drevlid neratarh Azathenai' means 'the people who were never born'.

They have their own lands. There are apparently enough of them that they have many masons.

I guess he is just described as a "Thel Akai halfblood' or 'Azathenai'. But SE is being very sneaky even by his own standards if they are not in some way a race/people. Why not mention Grizzin Farl's other race?

Also, we have not seen "houses of the Azath" yet to be worshipped. And given the relationship of those houses to the holds/houses/warrens/paths just being created, i was expecting their genesis to be in the future.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 29 March 2013 - 06:11 AM

[worry]

Yah, gotta re-read the book some time too, prolly when the next one comes out. For your list: One other "major" possibility you didn't include was Tayschrenn. Some people think it's him. And the worst of the bigger suggestions (in my opinion) is Icarium.

[Nevyn]

worrywort, on 29 March 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Yah, gotta re-read the book some time too, prolly when the next one comes out. For your list: One other "major" possibility you didn't include was Tayschrenn. Some people think it's him. And the worst of the bigger suggestions (in my opinion) is Icarium.

This is about the identity of Ruthan Guud, not the identity of Arathan (it does get confusing as the theories intersect)

I don't think anyone has suggested that Ruthan Guud is either of those two ...

[worry]

Oh crap yah, my brain frizzled.

[Ruthan Good]

Nevyn, I love it. Fantastic analysis.

When I first read FoD, I was convinced that if Arathan was any existing character, he would be Ruthan Gudd. I never considered Grizzin Farl, but the above points are very compelling.

Also, Arathan and Ruthan are both POV characters.

On the aside, I think the Tayschrenn theory is far too farfetched.

[Nevyn]

I'm really starting to lean towards him being neither. But whats really bending my mind are the related questions and how they impact it. For example, who is Greymane? Ruthan seems to think he would sense Draconus, too. So is Greymane just like Ruthan (an elder being somehow maintained by sorcery)? And does that make it more or less likely that either is Azathenai?

[tiam]

worrywort, on 29 March 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Funny you read GF as half-Thel Akai, half-Azathanai. Can you say only "half" Azathanai? Are they a distinct species? They could be drawn from other existing species to worship of the mysterious Azath -- "priests" of the Azath, used loosely, predating of course the Nameless Ones -- which grants them all sorts of powers/longevity. Now I'm curious how everybody else read that!

Its stated hes half Thel Akai, but its also stated he can completely transform himself to anything even a butterfly. If thats so how much Azathanai blood do you have to have to change? As for the Azathanai being a seperate species id have to say yes. There is a line from Osserc in BnB that states while Cowl was dangerous and a feared killer there are those within the grounds that possess Azathanai blood, thuis suggesting they are a race. Though of course this is problematic as MD is given the title of Azathanai by another Azathanai.

[worry]

To me Azathanai (so far) is just an early type of Ascendant, with a specific Azath House connotation. But this notion of them as a distinct people is plausible for sure.

[Ruthan Good]

Yes, I like it, an early type of ascendancy.

"Modern" era ascendancy has various grades of ascendancy, ranging from Dassem, to Kell and Dancer, to Stormy and Gesler you have individual people overcome some kind of physical or otherwise challenge and rising above themselves. It could be that in the olden days the Azath, the Vitr, or whatever, choose a person for servitude/guardianship/what not. And from there it flows in blood, like Envy and Spite, or in Draconus choosing MD out of love or just desire to be loved or worshipped, or whatever Burn's relations with Olar Ethil are (I need a reread). A brand new theory, just thought of it, maybe wrong.


Greymane, I believe early in SW his seemingly human past was mentioned. Sure enough in Wu it's not enough to guarantee anything, but I never thought Greymane to be anything but a human who got in touch with Burn and the Stormriders and maybe had some ascendant bits.

As for GF, it is also possible that he was the Forkrul Assail god that they popped. He has a connection to Kilimandaros and her children, and someone has to be their God, as they have killed him. It would be very poetic as well for the god of a people to be so unlike the people.

[Nevyn]

Says a lot about how little SE and ICE explain that we could not know conclusively at this point whether Azathenai is a race. It could be an early version of "Nameless One" (but I doubt it), or it could refer to Ascendants.

However, aside from the stuff Jean-Claude and I already mentioned, remember that there is a familial link here. We haven't yet seen exactly what becomes of Arathan, but so far if a character is Azathenai, their kids end up Azathenai. Thats a big part of why, to me, it feels like they are being presented as a race.

GF being the god they popped (thats the one that ends up a d'ivers in the glass desert right?) certainly would make sense.

I never thought of Greymane as other than human until looking further into the Ruthan Guud stuff. Here is the quote that got me thinking, and its certainly not definitive:

from DoD
------------------------------

But this night darkness had opened its flower, with a scent that could freeze a god's soul. Still alive, Greymane? Did you feel it? I think, your bones could be rotting in the ground right now, and you'd still have felt it.
Draconus.
Fuck.

----------------------------

Why would a mortal feel it? Why especially would a mortal feel it even if dead? Could just be a poetic train of thought, but it did get me wondering.

[Ruthan Good]

Could it be that his point was that everyone (or at least everyone with a modicum of power or some connection to higher forces, which we knew Greymane had) could feel it? And Gudd tells to the readers how important Draconus' return was through his internal musings, and the person he would imagine talking to would be, Greymane, one of his closest human associates?

This post has been edited by Ruthan Good: 30 March 2013 - 09:52 AM