[Illuyankas]

You are right about the luddite thing, since you apparently don't know how important things like advertising and networking is to those working in the media, and whatever the latest program is that's being used to communicate is pretty irrelevant, they'd still be abused for bullshit reasons no matter what they used. Haha, 'advertising your product is giving yourself attention, therefore you should expect people to threaten to literally fuck you to death' is what you're going with? And you should learn about direct messaging and the magic of a personalised RSS feed with much more utility before declaring stuff as 'for dolts' and I don't even use twitter.

I don't recall the last time someone was forced to flee their home because of abuse from ~*tumblr people*~. Like, you're the only person who's brought up the INCREDIBLE HORRORS WROUGHT UPON THE POOR RAPE-THREATENING PEOPLES OF THE LAND BY THOSE VILLAINOUS FEMINISTS and I'd quite like to see some links for all that, you know? Not just the FYC thing, something on the scale of shit Sarkeesian or Quinn have received. You know, to make it just. Incidentally you're still saying 'they didn't deserve it, but they also did deserve it'.

[Aptorian]

Grand Chef of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

You are right about the luddite thing, since you apparently don't know how important things like advertising and networking is to those working in the media, and whatever the latest program is that's being used to communicate is pretty irrelevant, they'd still be abused for bullshit reasons no matter what they used. Haha, 'advertising your product is giving yourself attention, therefore you should expect people to threaten to literally fuck you to death' is what you're going with? And you should learn about direct messaging and the magic of a personalised RSS feed with much more utility before declaring stuff as 'for dolts' and I don't even use twitter.

There is a difference between "Hey guys, you should play Depression Quest a game I made. It might change the way you look at this affliction."

and

"Those fucking assholes said this and that about this thing that us guys think is more important than oxygen, how fucking stupid do you you guys think they are? Women are just the best!"

Quinn does not just use her Twitter for advertisement and communicating with business partners and you know that Illy.

All these people allow their personal lives and their political agenda to get tangled up in their media presence. THAT is what causes all the drama.

And I repeat. If you cannot stop getting into arguments with people on a public platform like Twitter then you should step away from it. And while we are at it, it's not like Quinn isn't milking the situation for everything it is worth.

Grand Chef of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

I'd quite like to see some links for all that, you know? Not just the FYC thing, something on the scale of shit Sarkeesian or Quinn have received. You know, to make it just.

How bad does one side need to be to make the other side just?

Are you arguing that because /v/, tumblr, the red pill (or is that the blue pill?) are more vocal and numerous that makes the actions and rhetoric of the more aggressive feminists okay? Like a couple of death threats is not as bad as 20 death threats?

The most easily digestible collection of stuff that is attacking Quinn and that side of the fight is that InternetAristocrat guy:

(DISCLAIMER: This guy is a raging dick head and he's as bad as Sarkessian at cherry picking his examples and generally lashes out at everything and anyone (But his tumblr videos are hilarious))



Or just google around Quinns name. Lots of angry people have collected information about "the other sides transgressions".

Take everything with a shovel of salt.

Grand Chef of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Incidentally you're still saying 'they didn't deserve it, but they also did deserve it'.

I am saying if you punch a misogynist bear you are going to get mauled. Now, I didn't want you to get mauled, but you punched a fucking misogynist bear, what did you expect?

The internet is a terrible, dark horrible place... at times. Quinn, Sarkessian, et al can continue to rail about the evil of the misogynist gaming demographic but the problem really isn't gamers. It's human beings who are shrouded in anonymity and their own base stupidity. You can find those people on both sides of this discussion.

This post has been edited by Demon of High House Decay: 02 September 2014 - 09:32 PM

[Morgoth]

Yeah, and if you didn't want to get raped why did go to that party when you knew it contained men and alcohol?

Are you seriously believing this shit your spouting, Apt? If she didn't want death threats she should just have stayed at home? Not used the internet? That she shouldn't participate in, or talk about, a subject she cares about through the most effective platform?

What is wrong with you?

The problem certainly is gamers. I can write a feminist critique of say the MBotF, and it would garner some criticism. I could write a feminist critique of True Detective and it would garner some criticism. I could write a feminist critique of GTA and with just a little bit of exposure I could reasonably expect to receive threats. Shit, I was stupid enough to make a negative comment about a video “take down” of Sarkeesian on Reddit, and received a number of direct threats. But I guess if I didn’t want threats I should have put on a less revealing outfit, right?

The problem with the gaming community is twofold. First, it’s the assholes feeling legitimate in making threats so serious a person has to flee her home because she made a 30 minute critique of the video games. The second problem are people like you, Apt, who implicitly defend these people. Arguing that a sizeable part of the blame should be placed on the victim. And why not throw in a comment or two about rabid feminists, you know, just to keep things classy.

This is not just the way people are. That’s a weak attempt at dodging responsibility. The gaming community is especially bad – as could easily be seen on Reddit following the Quinn debacle or the posting of Sarkeesian’s videos – and if we do not make a point out of denouncing that sort of behavior we allow it to continue.

Demon of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

And there is a sort of cover-up going on. Albeit it appears to be one of silence and deflection. The press focuses on poor Zoe Quinn and they don't discuss the allegations of improper business relations. But hey, can you blame them? It's hard to see a problem when it's your every day social interactions on Twitter or Facebook that is the issue.

This is complete nonsense. A cover up of what? That a disgruntled ex-boyfriend claimed that Quinn had cheated on him with several people in the gaming industry? Yeah that's the foundation for a price winning article right there. The fact that you don't even see how little there is to discuss in the Quinn case is disturbing.

Now, we all agree that gaming journalism is mostly shit. However, the Quinn case is not about that. It's about misogynistic assholes and the people defending them.

[Aptorian]

High Priestess of our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 03 September 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Yeah, and if you didn't want to get raped why did go to that party when you knew it contained men and alcohol?

Are you seriously believing this shit your spouting, Apt? If she didn't want death threats she should just have stayed at home? Not used the internet? That she shouldn't participate in, or talk about, a subject she cares about through the most effective platform?

What is wrong with you?

I am saying that Quinn, Sarkissian, etc. aren't victims.

Lets make a historical parallel. When Martin Luther King made speeches and marched down streets with tons of black people, was it sickening the amount of hatred and threats that came his way? Yes it was, but it was also expected. A paradigm shift in the way society thinks was needed.

Same goes for women's rights. We've come a long way but whether you like it or not, video games are still percieved as, and marketed to as a boys club.

There's several generations of people, an entire culture of (probably) white, young, subburban assholes, who speak with out thinking, who hate with out reason, who live in a pit of ignorance. Those people can not all be expected to act or think rationally. You can then combine this with the fact that they have annonymity and that they hang out on message boards who encourage this kind of thinking. There's a reason why they call 4chan the internet hate machine for example.

I don't think the young girl out on the town annalogy is valid because this is not the same.

The threats and harrassment is the acts of manchildren. People who have no understanding of the repercussions of what they are actually doing or saying. Cowards who use their annonymity to say dark things they would be ashamed to utter in front of friends or family... hopefully.

My point being, as long as we have Net Neutrality, as long as people are allowed to use message boards with no registration of personal information, then this will continue. As such, if you do decide to speak up, if you want to fight, then fucking stand up for yourself. Be prepared for that tidal wave of shit that comes your way because it is fucking inevitable.

Which makes me repeat my statement. I do not feel sorry for Quinn or Sarkissian or who ever who is on the receiving end. I admire the passion and the dedication but they are not a victim, they are figureheads. As such, they become lightning rods for every bad thought in the video games industry.

High Priestess of our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 03 September 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

The problem certainly is gamers. I can write a feminist critique of say the MBotF, and it would garner some criticism. I could write a feminist critique of True Detective and it would garner some criticism. I could write a feminist critique of GTA and with just a little bit of exposure I could reasonably expect to receive threats. Shit, I was stupid enough to make a negative comment about a video “take down” of Sarkeesian on Reddit, and received a number of direct threats. But I guess if I didn’t want threats I should have put on a less revealing outfit, right?

I am inclined to give this argument merit. You're right, the tone and attitude is pretty rough on some message boards, but is the comparison between medias relevant?

How big are your average fantasy forum or TV show fan club? I haven't visited TORs forums in ages but I bet they don't get 1% of the traffic that r/gaming, neogaf or /v/ does. Furthermore I suspect that the average r/gaming user is probably younger and dumber than say a member of the esteemed Malazan forums.

Which would lead me back to my opinion that this is just human behavior. I mean, it's not like authors, actors, musicians, etc. don't get mountains of shit poored over them every time they say or do something online that is controversial or unpopular. F.eks. Salman Rushdie or poor, poor Nickelback..

High Priestess of our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 03 September 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

The problem with the gaming community is twofold. First, it’s the assholes feeling legitimate in making threats so serious a person has to flee her home because she made a 30 minute critique of the video games. The second problem are people like you, Apt, who implicitly defend these people. Arguing that a sizeable part of the blame should be placed on the victim. And why not throw in a comment or two about rabid feminists, you know, just to keep things classy.

This is not just the way people are. That’s a weak attempt at dodging responsibility. The gaming community is especially bad – as could easily be seen on Reddit following the Quinn debacle or the posting of Sarkeesian’s videos – and if we do not make a point out of denouncing that sort of behavior we allow it to continue.

I am not defending anyone. I am how ever arguing that people need to stop being so fucking outraged over very predictable reactions. Was I disgusted when the Sarkissian business first started? Yes. But then she continued making videos and the trolls and manchildren continued their act. And the cycle repeated itself a handful of times and now I just don't care to be outraged. The reactions are predictable. The only way to stop it is to force sites like 4chan, Reddit, etc. to hand over IP addresses and throw a bunch of people in a dungeon, but then what about our precious Net Neutrality?

And about the feminist thing. There IS vocal and toxic feminist faction that is just scary as the people who come after Quinn and Sarkissian. You talk about being hounded on Reddit for arguing in favor of Quinn, I have seen people being just aggressive in attacking people who argue against Quinn.

I don't think there is a bad or good side in this mess. Just a lot anger and confusion.

High Priestess of our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 03 September 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Demon of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

And there is a sort of cover-up going on. Albeit it appears to be one of silence and deflection. The press focuses on poor Zoe Quinn and they don't discuss the allegations of improper business relations. But hey, can you blame them? It's hard to see a problem when it's your every day social interactions on Twitter or Facebook that is the issue.

This is complete nonsense. A cover up of what? That a disgruntled ex-boyfriend claimed that Quinn had cheated on him with several people in the gaming industry? Yeah that's the foundation for a price winning article right there. The fact that you don't even see how little there is to discuss in the Quinn case is disturbing.

Now, we all agree that gaming journalism is mostly shit. However, the Quinn case is not about that. It's about misogynistic assholes and the people defending them.

Read that sentence again. I am NOT referring to Quinns personal life. I am referring to the refusal to discuss the interconnected relationships between the press and the developers. The Quinn case IS about that. It's like saying something bad about Israel. Suddenly you are a anti-semite, or in this case an anti-feminist. It's deflection. It's not about Sarkassian or Quinn or any one else on that side of the playing field. It's about the mainstream press refusing to at least play the devils advocate and ask some hard questions about people's work ethics.

This post has been edited by Demon of High House Decay: 03 September 2014 - 07:39 AM

[Obdigore]

Demon of High House Decay, on 03 September 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

There's several generations of people, an entire culture of (probably) white, young, subburban assholes, who speak with out thinking, who hate with out reason, who live in a pit of ignorance. Those people can not all be expected to act or think rationally. You can then combine this with the fact that they have annonymity and that they hang out on message boards who encourage this kind of thinking. There's a reason why they call 4chan the internet hate machine for example.

Then it is up to you to eviscerate these peoples opinions on the internet. Not validate and agree with them.

Ignorance is not, and never has been, an excuse.

If you don't agree with them, speak up, instead of just just re-linking the same shit they spouted.

[Aptorian]

Illy asked for some kind of link. I provided one.

And trust me, I have gotten into day long arguments with people in r/games. My favorite being the notion that Quinn somehow slept with all the mods on r/gaming and r/games.

However you can only read so many articles about what he said, she said, every week before the world becomes devoid of color.

[Morgoth]

Quote

Quote

This is complete nonsense. A cover up of what? That a disgruntled ex-boyfriend claimed that Quinn had cheated on him with several people in the gaming industry? Yeah that's the foundation for a price winning article right there. The fact that you don't even see how little there is to discuss in the Quinn case is disturbing.

Now, we all agree that gaming journalism is mostly shit. However, the Quinn case is not about that. It's about misogynistic assholes and the people defending them.

Read that sentence again. I am NOT referring to Quinns personal life. I am referring to the refusal to discuss the interconnected relationships between the press and the developers. The Quinn case IS about that. It's like saying something bad about Israel. Suddenly you are a anti-semite, or in this case an anti-feminist. It's deflection. It's not about Sarkassian or Quinn or any one else on that side of the playing field. It's about the mainstream press refusing to at least play the devils advocate and ask some hard questions about people's work ethics.

No one is refusing to discuss the interconnected relationship between the gamin industry and gaming journalism. People do it all the time. Every day. There is no lack of conversation here. The idea that Quinn’s alleged sexual relationship with some gaming journalists is somehow necessary, or even conducive, for an important debate is absurd.

As for all the accusations you have received of being an anti-feminist, I cannot but apologize. Alas it is out of my hands. It’s those dastardly rabid feminazis working towards their evil agenda to sensor all men on the internet and turn gaming into a brainwashing tool for their military branch. Being awake to this fact makes you immune to their machinations, but I understand that the continuous wave of accusations thrown your way grows tiresome.

[Aptorian]

High Priestess of our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 03 September 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

As for all the accusations you have received of being an anti-feminist, I cannot but apologize. Alas it is out of my hands. It’s those dastardly rabid feminazis working towards their evil agenda to sensor all men on the internet and turn gaming into a brainwashing tool for their military branch. Being awake to this fact makes you immune to their machinations, but I understand that the continuous wave of accusations thrown your way grows tiresome.

Thank you.

[Gothos]

This issue is rather interesting to watch from the sidelines. Why the sidelines? Well, where I come from and live, video games are still, in the hearts of minds of people, not only a "boy" thing, but also largely regarded silly, wasteful and childish on top. I've met one, ONE, woman that plays video games regularly in my entire life, and I met her through my WoW guild. Even there she was the only woman in the entire ~15 man team. Back when we did 25 man raids there were two, maybe three tops. As such, reports and research showing 47% of gamers being female is like complete science fiction to me. Not that I'm against it - I say BRING IT HERE PLEASE. Unless that counts all the Farmville, Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja and Candy Crush players as gamers, then the number is not really representative. But a world where the distribution of people who even accept gaming as a legitimate hobby is not just larger but also evened out across the sexes? Yes please, right now, bring it here.


More on topic, video games are as guilty of placing women as rewards for the males as cinema and TV are. Franchises like Mario and Legend of Zelda are quite terrible with it. But then there's oh so many games where the distinction between male and female characters is mostly cosmetic (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Diablo 3, World of Warcraft - really, pretty much any RPG where there's a choice of sex). Even the infamous chainmail bikini is slowly fading into the realm of fanart. Others will naturally have a divide, like Crusader Kings II - simulating a fedual medieval system of course you have to account for crown laws and inheritance. What was I supposed to be talking about again?
Oh. I actually forgot. Damn.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

This is one of the few places I've seen this topic discussed mostly sensibly, and it's a real breath of fresh air to see it. Bravo, Malazan Empire.

For my part as a member of the gaming community I don't agree with everything Sarkeesian states and I think in some cases her analysis and examples could be better (from the couple of videos I watched she draws from a narrow pool of hyper-violent games to make her point - and sort of misses the point that those games are hyper-violent and disturbing across the board, not just in the context of sexism), but I'm disgusted with the level of bile and hatred which has been thrown her way. I take the point made above that games seem to be a form of media you can't criticise, in that there seems to be a very vocal part of the community can't bear for their toy to be analysed. My other half for example, whilst not insulting anyone, gets very irrational about her and goes out of his way to prove her points wrong, even the solid ones that you'd have trouble arguing with. He even throws in "She isn't even a gamer" as a justification from time to time.

Even if you waltzed into the middle of the most rabid of fandoms of a TV series, film or book series and started ot critique it, I don't think you'd receive anything like this level of abuse. It's a really really sad state of affairs and in some ways makes me ashamed to be a part of that community.

One of the things I find most irritating is this idea of "professional vicitimhood". There's a crowd funded project to make a documentary called the Sarkeesian Effect and if you watch their pretty poor introductory video it amounts to little more than "Sarkeesian et al's professional victimhood is hijacking the industry". I'm sorry, I didn't realise receiving death and rape threats couldn't be a genuine problem. My bad.

On a lighter note, I'd never seen the Extra Credits video about female characters before, so thank you to the person who linked it (I forget who) - I thought that was spot on

[amphibian]

I don't think receiving threats over video games is unavoidable. Not in the slightest.

Much is made over the free wheeling 4chan, but there are rules to their conduct and not doxxing and threatening people should become the norm/be added to them.

When my cousins get to a certain age, I make it a point to not let them cuss on videogames chat, to keep their social media free of racism/stupidity and so on. This doesn't drive their rebellious behavior underground - it just makes them find another, more productive avenue for energy and fun.

Eternal September can be managed, if there's a strong interest in maintaining a sane and durable culture.

[Khellendros]

Here's a nice little article on #gamergate (man I hate that term), and the idea of supposed widespread corruption in game journalism.

http://www.theguardi...esian-zoe-quinn

[Gredfallan Ale]

Weaver of High House our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 03 September 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

I don't think receiving threats over video games is unavoidable. Not in the slightest.

Much is made over the free wheeling 4chan, but there are rules to their conduct and not doxxing and threatening people should become the norm/be added to them.

I think it is. While I hold the same moral values as you regarding threats and the like, I think it would be unrealistic to expect a state in which everyone holds and acts according to that value. We may hope or even strive for it, sure, but I don't we are ever going to reach a Utopian society, not without innovations like those in "Brave New World".

---

On the subject of Sarkeesian, I think I agree with most of her motives and general ideas. However, her video's are laden with rhetorics that may be persuasive, but are hardly backed by empirical facts. For example, during her "Damsel in Distress" trope video, I think that's the one in the original OP, she throws in the classical feminist "female as male property" trope, while arguably, in a lot of the video games she mentioned as examples of the "damsel in distress" trope, the female is never implied to be property of the male heroes (e.g., Princess Toadstool is never shown as property to Mario, nor is Princess Zelda the property of Link before she's captured). In her video's, she uses a lot more rhetorical devices like this one to induce a "yay-saying" response in her audience using classic feminist clichés that not actually supported by what's she's showing.

Sure, this is totally besides the inequality point she's making, a point I largely agree with, but it may actually harm her thesis, as she's often attacked on those empty rhetorics. It provides the critics with easy, but ultimately irrelevant, "escape cards", just like the "She's not even a real gamer" one.

[Illuyankas]

This guy I read stuff from occasionally wrote a post about this whole shebang after a contributor wrote his own piece, and I'm gonna post the relevant bits from the one I agree with more:

Quote

Schamergate and using irrelevancy as a weapon

I’ve been struck recently by how the “Gamergate” schmucks – and make no mistake, you are schmucks – seem determined to use absolutely irrelevant arguments to try and advance their stupid, frivolous cause. (he means the comments here, btw)

(And it is a stupid, frivolous cause. Game reviews do not merit a “-gate,” because they have been fundamentally crap for decades – it is open knowledge that better than ninety percent of them are bought-and-sold marketing pap, they are mostly pointless recitations of the game’s technical specifications anyway, and if a reviewer tries to get substantive, gamer nerds will start with the death threats because they didn’t give a perfect score to the game they wanted to be perfect. So anybody saying that this is the hill they have to die on is an idiot. But I digress.)

I am reminded, frankly, of what happened with conservatives who decided that Darren Wilson had to be defended when he shot Michael Brown to death, and how they began harping on whether Brown had shoplifted just prior – which was irrelevant, because the police admitted the shopkeeper had not reported the theft and Wilson had no idea about it. Then they harped on how Michael Brown’s autopsy showed he had marijuana in his system – which was irrelevant because so what, you can have pot in your system for weeks after smoking it, and more to the point pot doesn’t turn you into a savage monster who needs to be shot to death last time I checked. Then they started complaining about how all those black people were rioting, which A) was mostly not true and didn’t have anything to do with Michael Brown because he was dead and therefore could not riot so much. Right now they’re harping about releasing his juvenile record, which is not relevant because who gives a shit about his juvenile record.

The point of all of these irrelevancies is to try and cast blame for other incidents to muddy the waters, to try and make Michael Brown look like he deserved to be shot, when in context there was really no cause for him to be shot. (The context in this case of course being the multiple eyewitnesses who didn’t know each other and who all gave basically the same story – of Wilson executing Brown – within hours of Brown’s death, but conservatives decided that they didn’t count because, well, all the eyewitnesses were black and you know how black people are.)

Which brings me to Zoe Quinn and Lamergate. Gamergate. Whatever.

It is not relevant if Zoe Quinn and Eron Gjoni had a bad relationship (which, clearly, they did) to the issue of “was it right for Gjoni to post private message logs on Tumblr.” Because it’s not: it’s simply gross, shaming behaviour. If Gjoni wanted to rant about his ex, he could have anonymized the details and nobody would have said that was inappropriate. (Self-pitying wank, maybe, but not inappropriate.)

[aside about the contributor article here]

It is not relevant if Quinn cheated on Gjoni to the issue of “is it appropriate for some anon 4chan loser to post nude pictures of Quinn.” It is not relevant if Quinn slept with a Kotaku reviewer to the issue of “is it appropriate for Quinn to receive death threats.” Frankly, it isn’t even relevant if Quinn slept with a Kotaku reviewer to the issue of “did Quinn get a good review because of sex” because Quinn isn’t the reviewer and the moral onus for writing an unbiased article falls on the journalist, not the subject – never mind that there is precisely zero evidence whatsoever that said Kotaku reviewer ever influenced any writing at Kotaku about Quinn’s work.

It is not relevant if Quinn is an awful human being (I don’t know and I don’t care, although I expect she is like most twentysomethings: generally well-meaning, but confused and self-interested) because Quinn’s private life simply does not impact, in any way, the pathetic sad lives of the 4chan assholes who have harassed her.

(And yes, I don’t believe 4chan either, because why the hell would you believe anything emanating from a community which, inherent in its site design, encourages irresponsibility for one’s words and actions through anonymity? I mean, let’s go back to Michael Brown for a second: have we all forgotten that 4chan encouraged the Darren Wilson fundraiser for laughs? It’s a poison place filled with poison people; it makes Reddit look like a circumspect garden party by comparison, and that is indeed the very point of the site, to allow people to wallow in this sort of thing anonymously with no consequences. Why would you ever trust their word?)

In short: I have not seen one complaint about Quinn that is relevant to the issue of the horrible things that have been visited upon her. I have seen whining and piteous, pathetic wank, most of it either obfuscating the basic truth that this is about looking for excuses to attack Zoe Quinn for her gender, or alternately proclaiming that “this is bigger than Zoe Quinn” because some have at least enough insight to realize that maybe the wildly sexist assault is counterproductive, but they don’t want to apologize really so they jump straight to “we need to move on and address the REAL issues.” As if death threats were some kind of amusing sidenote.

And if you take offense with that – hey, go over to Davis Aurini’s Youtube page and start commenting there. I’m sure he can swirl his glass of whisky and cluck his tongue in such a way as to make you feel at home.

[amphibian]

The cesspools of the internet are now places where abuse becomes normalized. This takes form mostly in textual harassment and verbal assault, but now often extends to real world bullying.

The fact that some people find it funny or don't take it seriously doesn't mean this isn't happening.

Making a culture change to remove the abuse isn't something that requires a Brave New World style system. It just requires that more people get their jollies in different ways that don't leave behind an angry/sad monkey trying to pass that on to the next monkey.

It's kind of odd that my thoughts on 4chan et al crystallize on this topic, but it's the normalization of abuse in a way that needs to stop. The effects are bad enough that breaking up the worst centers of this is actually worthwhile. Yes, it's going to be a perpetual struggle and interesting legally/politically to develop a workable mechanism to do so, but it's worth it in my view.

[Morgoth]

I for one have never participated in an argument, or a debate for that matter, in real life that ended in someone threatening to kill one of the other participants.

[Obdigore]

Weaver of High House our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 05 September 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

The cesspools of the internet are now places where abuse becomes normalized. This takes form mostly in textual harassment and verbal assault, but now often extends to real world bullying.

Yup, there was no bullying before the internet!

Quote

The fact that some people find it funny or don't take it seriously doesn't mean this isn't happening.

Making a culture change to remove the abuse isn't something that requires a Brave New World style system. It just requires that more people get their jollies in different ways that don't leave behind an angry/sad monkey trying to pass that on to the next monkey.

It's kind of odd that my thoughts on 4chan et al crystallize on this topic, but it's the normalization of abuse in a way that needs to stop. The effects are bad enough that breaking up the worst centers of this is actually worthwhile. Yes, it's going to be a perpetual struggle and interesting legally/politically to develop a workable mechanism to do so, but it's worth it in my view.

This is like blaming fast food for Americans being fat. If you actually want to change these peoples minds, then you would have to magically make their parents not shit-heels, and then have them reset to about 3 months old, then change the entire culture around them, to well before they found such a horrible place as 4chan.

This whole 'Lamergate' (shamelessly taken from Illy's article quote above) thing has been spread throughout the 'gaming world', at least the English sections of it. I've seen it posted on places, and by people, who have nothing to do with 4chan and mostly agree with you that 4chan should diaf. If you honestly think 4chan has such a huuuuge influence on whatever, you are absolutely minimizing your impact, and maximizing a different group, so you can wash your hands of it and say 'they are too big for me to fight!'.

Quote

When my cousins get to a certain age, I make it a point to not let them cuss on videogames chat, to keep their social media free of racism/stupidity and so on. This doesn't drive their rebellious behavior underground - it just makes them find another, more productive avenue for energy and fun.

If you are trying to control their behavior instead of convince them to change their minds, then yes, you are just driving their rebellious behavior underground. They are just so good at it you don't know about it. Imagine that.

[amphibian]

Yes, there was and will be bullying without the internet - but not institutionalized on this scale and marketed in a way that really draws in the fourteen year olds. You will find stuff like "Hey, there's this really edgy place where people act outrageously for jokes." on plenty of forums like Gaia and Reddit. They won't all point to 4chan or the other places.

I'm referring to real life DDOS like SWATting, harassing phone calls, magazine sign ups etc. when I say that the online bullying is now encroaching into the real world.

Fast food restaurants have purposely shifted things like portion size, salt in food etc. higher and higher. The Big Mac of the 50s is a very different thing than the Big Mac of today - and that's not actually a good thing. Yes, the consumers keep buying the food, but it's not entirely their/our fault that the food is awful for us.

In regards to my cousins, no, they actually listened to me about language. I figure the rebellious behavior will be the "sneaking out, underage drinking, car stealing" type. It also helps that my cousins are visibly not white and already have had to deal with racist jerks.

[Tsundoku]

Speaking of 4chan ...

Attached File(s)

•  licd4chan.gif (143.63K)
  Number of downloads: 0

This post has been edited by Sombra: 06 September 2014 - 06:07 AM

[Vaddon Ra]

Weaver of High House our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 09 March 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Do men make up the majority of the market because that's just the way it's always going to be or because there's been some degree of exclusion of women in the creation, design and marketing of most video games?

I've no idea about the 180k and not doing anything, but that's pretty egregious - if true. I recall seeing that people were faking things (fake pictures, fake tweets etc.) to make it look like the woman wasn't doing anything. That's messed up and severely drops the credibility of the detractors here.

Men almost certainly make up the majority of the market due to roughly 3 decades of nearly 100% male marketing. Although there are women in games, playable female characters etc, in almost any period of games design reaching way back into the 70's even almost all video games will feature male protagonists and, for example, when there are both male and female characters available it is often the case that there are more male designs (and arguably therefore more thought and love put into the masculine figures) or that the female characters aren't actually that good in the game. I would suggest that in old school arcade games Golden Axe and Streets of Rage despite 1 of your 3 playable characters being female and both of them actually being a better character in their own right they are still sexualised in appearance to cater to the audience and heavily involved in games that are almost entirely built around a male player base.
I would also think that even the rise of Tomb Raider for all the good it did to give a high profile game series a female protagonist did not do enough to alienate the desires of the male populace.. hence the nude cheats in Tomb Raider 3, the short shorts the bewbs etc etc.

It's getting better, especially in the realm of wide open world RPG's where your character is supposed to be a in game reflection of what you, the player wishes, hence no fixed protagonist of any specific gender. I would heavily recommend looking into large scale RPG's and MMO of the last few years for a slightly healthier way of representing women in video games. It's not quite perfect and still caters to the "object" problem but its getting there.