[Cause]

I feel like I am becoming a broken record but what the hell happened to the Malazan series. I feel like its become an unending fiction engine. The only point of any book seems to be to throw out plot hooks for future books. My god when Triss told K'azz to go to Assail I almost felt like I was hearing a telephone operator telling me to put in an extra quarter to continue the conversation. Can Assail really deliver after all this hype? I'm not sure I even care anymore.

Cowl knows! K'azz knows! Triss knows! But no one will give the answer straight. Go to Assail! Shimmer needs to know, all the Crimson Guard do. I just cant buy that they are all happy to just let it go. Again to me it feel like the plot lines are being stretched on purpose. What did we learn this book? What happened?

The Plot lines:

Ardata!
Ardata is an Alien witch queen who has manifested her power in a way no one else has. Hey lets ignore that for now. She wants Skinner or K'azz as her consort for reasons we dont know. At least we get another hint the CG is special! Did not have enough of those. She takes out Skinner like a punk, though he came across as a punk the whole novel. This was not the rival to Dassem I had come to expect. She has a child she shelters from the world and we know Triss thinks this is selfish and wrong but why?

Triss!
The entire mission Triss performs is a mystery. What is she doing and why is just not covered. Who is Ina? Why does she serve? I know the Seguleh belong to ICE but it seems that is the only reason one showed up.

Crimson Guard
Skinner is dead lets just get back together and go to Assail!

Kallor!
Did anyone fail to see it was him? For all that this book was about it him we dont have a single PoV from his character. Which is sad since it seems like he might actually be one of the most interesting characters in Malazan history. It also seems to me that he might have been wronged by the elder gods. He might be a bastard and tyrant but it seems his empire prospered. He also seems to not have been as much a monster as we thought, he banned human sacrifice for example and he is responsible for human ascendancy on Jacaruku. Too bad none of this was delved into deeper. Why should he not be able to kill himself? Is he sustained in a manner similar to the Imass or CG? Maybe we will find out in Assail!!!! Also did he attack the Thaumaturgs to defend himself, or did they attack him to defend themselves?

Jatal!
Just a plot device to not give Kallor a PoV!

The Masters!
They were going to destroy the entire world to kill Kallor? This just does not make sense!

The Thaumaturgs!
Look an entire order of mages who dont use warrens or any system of magic we are familiar with or have ever seen before! Lets move on shall we

Army of Righteous Chastisements!
To suffer through an unending list of ways in which people may die from disease, parasites, rot and incompetence just so they could serve as a diversion for the masters was painful. How did Skinner and Co benefit?

Saeng and Pon-lor!
Another set up for something far in the future. The army of Ghosts she speaks to and who are familiar with Kallors history are just wasted. By birth alone she is the high priestess of light! Wow!

I cant tell whether I just no longer understand this series or if as I begin to suspect their is just nothing to understand.

[nacht]

Cause, on 20 February 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

I feel like I am becoming a broken record but what the hell happened to the Malazan series. I feel like its become an unending fiction engine. The only point of any book seems to be to throw out plot hooks for future books. My god when Triss told K'azz to go to Assail I almost felt like I was hearing a telephone operator telling me to put in an extra quarter to continue the conversation. Can Assail really deliver after all this hype? I'm not sure I even care anymore.

Cowl knows! K'azz knows! Triss knows! But no one will give the answer straight. Go to Assail! Shimmer needs to know, all the Crimson Guard do. I just cant buy that they are all happy to just let it go. Again to me it feel like the plot lines are being stretched on purpose. What did we learn this book? What happened?

Overall, you make some good points but Jackuruku is simply not the right setting to disclose this secret. As far back as MOI, there were hints that something big was happening in Assail and it is tied to the T'lan Imass someow. Clearly both SE and ICE already laid out the books in the series and know exactly when they will reveal what.
So, I dont see why they would make the mistake of revealing anything prematurely and spoiling the future books.

Quote

The Plot lines:

Ardata!
Ardata is an Alien witch queen who has manifested her power in a way no one else has. Hey lets ignore that for now. She wants Skinner or K'azz as her consort for reasons we dont know. At least we get another hint the CG is special! Did not have enough of those. She takes out Skinner like a punk, though he came across as a punk the whole novel. This was not the rival to Dassem I had come to expect. She has a child she shelters from the world and we know Triss thinks this is selfish and wrong but why?

I dont think Ardata is an "alien" . She is the Queen of Witches, which as a trope is generally very important position. In my opinion, she wanted Skinner or K'azz simply for company, as a partner as she appears to be emotionally needy. They are both very capable people who live forever and that is the attraction. She has not seen Kazz before and I think was clearly disappointed in how he turned out to be.

Quote

Triss!
The entire mission Triss performs is a mystery. What is she doing and why is just not covered. Who is Ina? Why does she serve? I know the Seguleh belong to ICE but it seems that is the only reason one showed up.

The nature of Triss will remain a big mystery. The seguleh might be bodygaurds of gods. Perhaps they even worship T'riss. Who knows? With Ina, ICE did some trope twisting and it is enjoyable to see them brought down to earth a little bit.
As a god Triss probably can appear in whatever form she wants and this seemed to be a very effective disguise.

Quote

Crimson Guard
Skinner is dead lets just get back together and go to Assail!

I found the way Skinner was handled to be deliciously ironic. Beware of Ardata's gifts.

Quote

Kallor!
Did anyone fail to see it was him? For all that this book was about it him we dont have a single PoV from his character. Which is sad since it seems like he might actually be one of the most interesting characters in Malazan history. It also seems to me that he might have been wronged by the elder gods. He might be a bastard and tyrant but it seems his empire prospered. He also seems to not have been as much a monster as we thought, he banned human sacrifice for example and he is responsible for human ascendancy on Jacaruku. Too bad none of this was delved into deeper. Why should he not be able to kill himself? Is he sustained in a manner similar to the Imass or CG? Maybe we will find out in Assail!!!! Also did he attack the Thaumaturgs to defend himself, or did they attack him to defend themselves?

First it is mentioned in MOI that Kallor survives by taking this special herb which prevents aging. Second, I dont think Kallor's identity was ever meant to be a gotcha. He is not mentioned by name because the characters around him are not aware of his true identity.
Ultimately, Kallor is true evil. He is a tyrant and his subjects mean nothing to him. He is ambitious, cynical, selfish and spiteful. The worst thing is that all his extended life has not change him one bit. He is a personification of all that is bad about humans and the fact that they never learn anything from history.
One thing is clear, Kallor destroyed Jackuruku just because of spite, to make a point rather. His subjects rebelled against him, but his response was even worse.

Quote

Jatal!
Just a plot device to not give Kallor a PoV!

I think Jatal was a mini-story in itself. An interesting variant of the usual Romeo and Juliet trope. As a series, MBotF is missing a bit on romance. So this makes up for it. I am ready to fall in love with Andanii :-) Anybody who puts arrows in Kallor has some oomph...

Quote

The Masters!
They were going to destroy the entire world to kill Kallor? This just does not make sense!

I dont think they were trying to bring a meteor down to destroy the world. They were probably thinking of controlling the souls in the jade statues for their own purpose. In DG, there was a jade statue embedded in Raraku sand. So it is possible to bring them down without destroying the world.

Quote

The Thaumaturgs!
Look an entire order of mages who dont use warrens or any system of magic we are familiar with or have ever seen before! Lets move on shall we

There is a brief mention of Thaumaturgy in some previous book. I think this has something to do with Denul. It is not a warren you travel in. Rather it can separate consciousness from the human body, while the body itself is remade.
As a system of magic it was very interesting.

Quote

Army of Righteous Chastisements!
To suffer through an unending list of ways in which people may die from disease, parasites, rot and incompetence just so they could serve as a diversion for the masters was painful. How did Skinner and Co benefit?

I dont think they thought this would happen, that they would suffer this much. As a strategy, I am stumped on the need for a feint like this. They probably

Quote

Saeng and Pon-lor!
Another set up for something far in the future. The army of Ghosts she speaks to and who are familiar with Kallors history are just wasted. By birth alone she is the high priestess of light! Wow!

Saeng is a born adept like Sinn. At many places in the series, it is hinted that bloodline have importance. For example the bloodlines of the Shake. I think both Saeng and Pon-Lor were great and the story was fun to read.

Quote

I cant tell whether I just no longer understand this series or if as I begin to suspect their is just nothing to understand.

I think this is too harsh. It is story and it is a good story. ICE is quite imaginative but his story lines dont ge'l as well as SE's.
The clash between Ardata and T'riss was a big disappointment for me.

Also being an asian, the settings were quite exciting.. Himathan (similar to the Himalayas), Adnanii, Jungles like those in Vietnam. The take on Thaumaturgy was great. There is some similarity to Indian yogis which as was fun..
And I loved Spite... She was badass in this ....
A lot of good characters. Good characters, great settings, a few weaknesses in the story arcs

[Sinisdar Toste]

gothos v osserc was perfect i don't care what anybody says

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 21 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

[tiam]

Nacht- The Thaumaturgs use Driss in ROTCG. It is likely, though not specified, they do tap into warren magic but Cause is right its seems slightly odd. Saeng is not a born adept like Sinn or Beak, she is generic by- blood priestess searching for a lost temple that houses infinite power, the same trope SE slams in RG with Udinaas's story. You argue your case well however..

Point 1- Plot- By saying its not the right time to deal with it is fine but do not simply allude to it throughout the entire book. If they had simply ignored Assail and gotten on with the book then it would have been a much more enjoyable read. Did we really need section after section of Kazz question dodging or Skinner question dodging? Its not such a big deal when such things are resolved by the end of the book or even if they are not vital to the book.

However we are faced with the fact that both Kazz and Skinner went to see Ardatha for no valid reason in this book. It is stated by ICE I think that these are standalone books that are simpy set in the Malazan universe and as this is the case the story fails.

Point 2 Ardatha- The disfigured daughter plotline was so under whelming, under explained with such a unresolved ending, that remember will not be revisited as these are standalone novels, that I felt like id wasted my time.

Point 3 - Triss - To state that Triss is a big mystery is fine it really is but what was her mission? What was its purpose? The fact that it is so vague after finishing the book, that again will not be returned to because these are standalone books, simply makes it that much more frustrating. You can simply go 'who knows about the nature of the gods' to these questions but not when the very narrative clarity of the book hinges upon it.

Point 4 - The CGRD- Nothing happened with them at all other than Skinner went back to Ardatha and , for an undefined reason, was killed off because of *insert vague conversation again*. Why not have the opening of Assail be Kazz stating Skinner is dead, having him come back as a Brthern and showing his journey, solitary after his Disavowed return to Kazz out of loyalty, as a flashback. It would have been far more interesting, alot shorter, and we could have had the reveal as to why he went back there as it would have been the Assail book that holds all the answers.

Point 5- Kallor- Its not a special herb it was century candles, an alchemical device that allows Kallor, cursed with mortal life unending, to not be a bed bound old man. You claim ultimately Kallor is true evil but hes simply not. His growth in SE's books culminating in TTH highlights alot about his character. Yet here he becomes a 2d warlord again and all his growth from TTH is gone. I understand he wasnt supposed to be a mystery for the reader and that he wasnt mentioned by the Adwamii but he his story is built up as tragic in TTH.

I realise this is subjective and im glad you enjoyed the book. I, like alot of people, found it maddening like alot of ICEs books. There not going to be addressed later either. A fine example of how to have an event that it important and foreshadows alot would be the Seguleh Seconds appearance in TBH. An important event that foreshadows alot of things and allows us to debate alot of things based on what we know, yet allows the book to continue onwards to understandable plot points. ICE has simply put all his eggs in one basket with Assail and it probably wont deliver. Its not like TCG where we have numerous flashbacks across the characters that cant be addressed. It made sense in TCG but it wont make sense to have a continental round up at the end of Assail.



Cause- I pretty much agree on all your points. Himatan as a setting was very well realised. I would have liked even more older entities there though, as a last bastion of the old world before humans. To me that would have been more interesting than having everyone walk through a jungle and question dodge for 600 pages like an episode of Lost/the Event etc. Himitan could have been a bastion for the soletaken or the mix breeds that are half and half from the HFE thus padding out history for the HFE and providing interesting characters to this book.

EDIT- I continued on addressing all points but my laptop crashed and I havnt got the heart to start again.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 21 February 2013 - 04:09 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I kind of have a feeling that the whole Light/Whorl/Liosan/Osserc/T'renn/Vitr/T'riss/Ardatha/Leoman/Kiska thing will wrap up with a little more finality in the Assail book. Kind of like the Korabas/T'iam/Jade Giants/Crippled God/Bonehunters convergence in tCG. I don't see why he would have included the whole Light plot spanning RotCG to BaB if he didn't have a good - if for lack of a better word - ending in mind. That said, there is no real precedent for me to believe this and that does leave me a little skeptical. But a girl guy can dream, can't she he?

[tiam]

Stalking Stonny, on 21 February 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I kind of have a feeling that the whole Light/Whorl/Liosan/Osserc/T'renn/Vitr/T'riss/Ardatha/Leoman/Kiska thing will wrap up with a little more finality in the Assail book. Kind of like the Korabas/T'iam/Jade Giants/Crippled God/Bonehunters convergence in tCG. I don't see why he would have included the whole Light plot spanning RotCG to BaB if he didn't have a good - if for lack of a better word - ending in mind. That said, there is no real precedent for me to believe this and that does leave me a little skeptical. But a girl guy can dream, can't she he?

It will be rapped up in Assail likely dovetailing nicely with the return of Osserc to lead the Liosan or some such. He will undoubtedly address it but whether he can address all the points hes left hanging remains to be seen. Im not asking for there to be no mystery left but motivations need to be made clear. Weve finished SE ten book arc and we pretty much know alot of whats happened. The history of the world still has so many mysteries but the main narrative of the main arc has been addressed with some finality. Yet ICE is writing standalone novels that arent going to be returned to. We still have no idea what the Storm Riders are, to take an example out of the air, their motivations/origins/society, which would be fine except they were the main thrust of a a full book with alot of foreshadwing before that in NOK.

[Salt-Man Z]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 21 February 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

ICE is writing standalone novels that arent going to be returned to.

This is pretty obviously false, and (incorrectly) accepting it as premise is what leads to a lot of people's disappointment with ICE, in my opinion.

- - -

Though his writing has improved steadily over time, the problems with BaB are the exact same issues that have been plaguing ICE's work since NoK. It seems silly to get fed up and threaten to jump ship with only one novel left, especially considering all the hints pointing to "Assail" being where all (or at least many) of the answers will be revealed.

Now, it's certainly reasonable to be skeptical of ICE's ability to pull it all off in the final book, but shoot, we've got less than a year's wait to find out whether that's the case or not.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Also I think appropo to how SE and ICE use info revealed in each other's most recent works, there may be some kind of new info we pick up from Fall of Light that may answer a few of the Osserc/Liosan questions in the Assail novel or vice versa.

[tiam]

Salt-Man Z, on 21 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 21 February 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

ICE is writing standalone novels that arent going to be returned to.

This is pretty obviously false, and (incorrectly) accepting it as premise is what leads to a lot of people's disappointment with ICE, in my opinion.

- - -

Though his writing has improved steadily over time, the problems with BaB are the exact same issues that have been plaguing ICE's work since NoK. It seems silly to get fed up and threaten to jump ship with only one novel left, especially considering all the hints pointing to "Assail" being where all (or at least many) of the answers will be revealed.

Now, it's certainly reasonable to be skeptical of ICE's ability to pull it all off in the final book, but shoot, we've got less than a year's wait to find out whether that's the case or not.

I never said I was going to jump ship nor was I questioning ICEs ability as a writer. Often he gets unfavourably compared to SE but I find his prose very good and at times refreshing compared to the philosophically dense writing of SE.

They arent going to be returned to though are they? The main arc goes Genabackis for GOTM, MOI, TTH, 7cities for DG, HOC and TBH and Lether for the rest. These are individual books that are set on different continents that have overlapping themes yet will not be returned to. It was ok that we didnt get to see the Malazan counter attack mentioned in DG because it was book 2 of ten. This was the second to last book that have all been set on different continents with the last being set on yet another continent. It is not ICE style of writing that is frustrating simply his reluctance (or inability in which case it is a weakness) to put clear motivations down on paper. Nothing is explained. Its not even like SE where enough clues are in place to piece it together. Alot of people found the the motivations in DOD and TCG very confusing yet there was enough clues there to piece it together with Tavore etc (apart from the Perish).

We just dont get this for ICE. It was the Storm Riders in SW, the Tyrant (amongst other things) in OST and its reaches its frustrating pinnacle in Blood and Bone in that we have large amounts of POV chcaracters heading towards somewhere without a shred of information. If we dont have Blood and Bone as a book and ICE jumped to Assail what happens? We dont learn anything in this book, the only thing that comes out of it is that Skinner dies and the CGRD get back together but even then we have no idea why these things happened nor why they had to happen in Jacuruku.

Stalking Stonny- Thats entirely my point though. A good example of this is the fake Kazz plotline. While it might be a retcon the Kazz situation was mentioned in passing in TTH. There was mention of a fake Kazz and then in this book it was mentioned that the Avowed used to pretend to be Kazz for fear of the Claw. Thats fine. But the information in this instance wasnt the crucial info needed to understand the motivations of the characters. SE does it with a subtle frustrating hint that will be answered later but that isnt crucial to the book. For example I remember someone saying that they loved the fact that Silanda plotline wasnt cleared up for many books. That was fine because it wasnt crucial. Same with the dead Edur in MOI that the Moranth and QB find. An intriguing clue, with a good level of foreshadowing, yet not relevant to the task at hand. Say we get a brief mention of why the Storm Riders where attacking the Wall in 3 books time that will be frustrating. Theyre a huge part of SW yet we know nothing about them in a book that should have given us at the very least the bare bones of info. Greymane is still a mystery in a book named after him.

As I say im glad some people enjoyed the book and I did in parts. Its just so utterly disheartening to be 15 pages from the end of an ICE book with precisely nothing resolved or explained

EDIT- Youll have to forgive me I have hijacked this thread and gone on somewhat of a rant about ICE in general. For the record I really enjoyed ROTCG, enjoyed SW but only on a reread, ive reread OST and really enjoyed the Antsy plotline though the whole Dstan plotline is a huge mix of inconsistencies and let downs and am currently on a very very slow reread of BnB. This doesnt actually get better on a reread which explains my lack of reading it and my frustration. As I say im glad some people enjoyed it and I really hope ICE, who is a good writer, can pull off Assail.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 21 February 2013 - 06:50 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 21 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Stalking Stonny- Thats entirely my point though. A good example of this is the fake Kazz plotline. While it might be a retcon the Kazz situation was mentioned in passing in TTH. There was mention of a fake Kazz and then in this book it was mentioned that the Avowed used to pretend to be Kazz for fear of the Claw. Thats fine. But the information in this instance wasnt the crucial info needed to understand the motivations of the characters. SE does it with a subtle frustrating hint that will be answered later but that isnt crucial to the book. For example I remember someone saying that they loved the fact that Silanda plotline wasnt cleared up for many books. That was fine because it wasnt crucial. Same with the dead Edur in MOI that the Moranth and QB find. An intriguing clue, with a good level of foreshadowing, yet not relevant to the task at hand. Say we get a brief mention of why the Storm Riders where attacking the Wall in 3 books time that will be frustrating. Theyre a huge part of SW yet we know nothing about them in a book that should have given us at the very least the bare bones of info. Greymane is still a mystery in a book named after him.

I see your point, but am pivoting on the axis of them both being different writers and having different styles. Me saying I have a feeling doesnt mean it will happen and even if it does, it could still be something that doesn't really make a whole hell of a lot of sense or just come from nowhere. Its interesting because every time ICE has a new book come out, many people, upon finishing it, think "Well maybe he'll explain all the stuff in the next book." And I can understand how that is frustrating. And I really still think the T'riss/Ardata plot was hard to sink into, not really giving a fuck about Ardata or her daughter. I also hated the comic demise of the Tyrant in OST, despite how fun it was to read at the time, and still want to know about the Stormriders.

I think what frustrates people the most is that ICE and SE to a lesser extent are more into telling the story, and dont care about our questions regarding lack of clarity on many of their main plot devices and characters, and are willing to sacrifice expectations for telling the story, and since ICE's reasons for how things happen in his stories can sometimes be...not too good, and the characters sometimes seem unfinished for no reason at all, it leaves sour taste.

I like ICE's stories because they are set in the Malaz world. I don't think I would really like them if I didn't have past histories of the characters and the world. Kind of like the Star Wars prequels, but nowhere near as bad.

This post has been edited by Stalking Stonny: 21 February 2013 - 07:52 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 21 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I never said I was going to jump ship nor was I questioning ICEs ability as a writer.

That section wasn't directed at you; I tried to separate it from my response to your quote with a dividing line, sorry if that wasn't clearer. It was more toward the OP and just my thoughts in general.

I get what you're saying about not coming back to events/locations in his books; my issue was more with the claim that they're standalone. Maybe "self-contained"? Semantics, I suppose. Either way, it seems clear to me that ICE has for five books now been building up to the sixth. The Crimson Guard plot has been building from RotCG through SW and BaB and will presumably culminate in Assail. The Stormriders have shown up in every book so far I think, barring OST; it would not shock me if they played some role in Assail. ICE isn't revisiting locales like SE's series did, instead I think most of his threads are being followed from one location to the next, and will all wind up in the same place at the end. Or at least, that's my fervent hope.

[nacht]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 21 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Nacht- The Thaumaturgs use Driss in ROTCG. It is likely, though not specified, they do tap into warren magic but Cause is right its seems slightly odd. Saeng is not a born adept like Sinn or Beak, she is generic by- blood priestess searching for a lost temple that houses infinite power, the same trope SE slams in RG with Udinaas's story. You argue your case well however..

I disagree. Saeng was a lodestone of power even as a child. That is what attracted the spirits.

Quote

Point 1- Plot- By saying its not the right time to deal with it is fine but do not simply allude to it throughout the entire book. If they had simply ignored Assail and gotten on with the book then it would have been a much more enjoyable read. Did we really need section after section of Kazz question dodging or Skinner question dodging? Its not such a big deal when such things are resolved by the end of the book or even if they are not vital to the book.

However we are faced with the fact that both Kazz and Skinner went to see Ardatha for no valid reason in this book. It is stated by ICE I think that these are standalone books that are simpy set in the Malazan universe and as this is the case the story fails.

There is a valid reason. Ardatha asked and she did not want a "NO" for an answer. The Azathanai have emotional needs. Draconus for example has a long list of ex-girlfriends.
SE and ICE have built a very large Malazan universe. If Ardatha deep dive was skipped in the storytelling, some of us would be screaming blood hell. So ICE gave us a story about her. Ardatha has long been a patron of the Crimson Gaurd (through Skinner). Earlier books hinted at the relationship and this book elaborated about it. If the Crimson Gaurd were skipped in this story, we would be asking how Ardata was related to them. You may not like the story but you cant blame ICE for trying to put it in. In the story, we see that Skinner was pretty bad ass and his life was not exactly fun in the service of the crippled god.

Quote

Point 2 Ardatha- The disfigured daughter plotline was so under whelming, under explained with such a unresolved ending, that remember will not be revisited as these are standalone novels, that I felt like id wasted my time.

I dont think this was a huge part of the story. Rather it is a small part that embellishes the fact that Ardata was stuck in an Azathanai level funk.

Quote

Point 3 - Triss - To state that Triss is a big mystery is fine it really is but what was her mission? What was its purpose? The fact that it is so vague after finishing the book, that again will not be returned to because these are standalone books, simply makes it that much more frustrating. You can simply go 'who knows about the nature of the gods' to these questions but not when the very narrative clarity of the book hinges upon it.

T'riss goal was to give Ardata a kick in the pants and wake her out of her funk. She could be doing this for two reasons. One she is her sister (sappy, I know) and probably the main one, Ardata seems to be inadvertently interfering in other god's plans and nobody was clear on her intentions. So maybe she came to figure this out.

Quote

Point 4 - The CGRD- Nothing happened with them at all other than Skinner went back to Ardatha and , for an undefined reason, was killed off because of *insert vague conversation again*. Why not have the opening of Assail be Kazz stating Skinner is dead, having him come back as a Brthern and showing his journey, solitary after his Disavowed return to Kazz out of loyalty, as a flashback. It would have been far more interesting, alot shorter, and we could have had the reveal as to why he went back there as it would have been the Assail book that holds all the answers.

Quote

Point 5- Kallor- Its not a special herb it was century candles, an alchemical device that allows Kallor, cursed with mortal life unending, to not be a bed bound old man. You claim ultimately Kallor is true evil but hes simply not. His growth in SE's books culminating in TTH highlights alot about his character. Yet here he becomes a 2d warlord again and all his growth from TTH is gone. I understand he wasnt supposed to be a mystery for the reader and that he wasnt mentioned by the Adwamii but he his story is built up as tragic in TTH.

You are right. It is the century candle. Thanks for the correction. There is some discrepancy with Kallor between TTH and BaB. Even in TTH, the only regret I saw within Kallor was when he was fighting Spinnock. It seems like everybody likes Spinnock :-)

Quote

I realise this is subjective and im glad you enjoyed the book. I, like alot of people, found it maddening like alot of ICEs books. There not going to be addressed later either. A fine example of how to have an event that it important and foreshadows alot would be the Seguleh Seconds appearance in TBH. An important event that foreshadows alot of things and allows us to debate alot of things based on what we know, yet allows the book to continue onwards to understandable plot points. ICE has simply put all his eggs in one basket with Assail and it probably wont deliver. Its not like TCG where we have numerous flashbacks across the characters that cant be addressed. It made sense in TCG but it wont make sense to have a continental round up at the end of Assail.



Cause- I pretty much agree on all your points. Himatan as a setting was very well realised. I would have liked even more older entities there though, as a last bastion of the old world before humans. To me that would have been more interesting than having everyone walk through a jungle and question dodge for 600 pages like an episode of Lost/the Event etc. Himitan could have been a bastion for the soletaken or the mix breeds that are half and half from the HFE thus padding out history for the HFE and providing interesting characters to this book.

EDIT- I continued on addressing all points but my laptop crashed and I havnt got the heart to start again.

Overall both ICE and SE like to bust your expectations of the story lines(tropes). Sometimes, that turns out to be pleasant and sometimes that seems to piss people off. People are still trying to recover from how they messed with WU mythology in FoD.

But the main criticism by OP

Quote

"I feel like its become an unending fiction engine. The only point of any book seems to be to throw out plot hooks for future books."

I feel this is unfair. They built a big world. They are wrapping up while keeping it mostly consistent. They deliver books at a good pace. My experience with BaB is that I read it with rapt attention and was a bit disappointed with the ending.
I think Ardata/T'riss battle was a lost opportunity.

[tiam]

*shrugs*

Different stokes for different folks I guess. Im glad you enjoyed the book. I just found certain points, like Pat and alot of other members, a bit meh. I think you might be in the minority in liking this book which is fine. Im in the minority in that I think ROTCG is ICEs best book by far.

[Cause]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 23 February 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

*shrugs*

Different stokes for different folks I guess. Im glad you enjoyed the book. I just found certain points, like Pat and alot of other members, a bit meh. I think you might be in the minority in liking this book which is fine. Im in the minority in that I think ROTCG is ICEs best book by far.

Thanks Tiam because of this I went to read Pat's review. What I found most interesting was that apparently this book was no originally planned to be a part of the sequence. With that knowledge I think it makes sense. ICE may have had something he wanted to tell but for the most part the book is empty of meaning and void of detail. Something which now makes sense that I realise it was not planned for. I felt like this book could be dropped and the Assail book would not suffer for it and now I feel vindicated.

I mean K'azz is called by Ardata and only agrees to go because the Dolmens of Tien are involved. Not 20 pages later the dolmen are disturbed the SG fragment is released and K'azz and Ardata never discuss it again.

@Nacht- I remembered the century candles but I was asking why Kallor cant kill himself. He says he has tried but cant succeed. I have to ask why is it so hard? If he cut his head off would he become like an Imass? Is the curse sustaining him similar to the vow? Otherwise why cant he die? Century candles or no. In fact I had thought that they were for lack of a better term a GotMism. His age has changed drastically throughout the books.

Also he says he was testing if the curse still holds. The curse what that he could never ascend. Yet he was briefly King of High House chains, I forget why he was kicked out. He is also worshiped on Jacaruku and by the Shadawum. Also the curse seems to grant him immortality. Seems to me he is an ascendant in all but name and why that should be is a mystery. So whats going on here.

[tiam]

I wouldnt say his age has changed drastically in the books. Hes still incredibly ancient throughout. Regarding the century candles curse thing, he was cursed with a mortal life unending but the century candles which he uses daily allow him to not be a bed bound old man through there alchemical properties. It is not a mystery but you are right he is an ascendent in all but name.

[Sinisdar Toste]

also, kallor commit suicide? that's as unlikely as anomander rake giving himself a paper-cut with dragnipur.

[worry]

It seems to be his goal, at least as far back as the flashback of his visit to the Liosan throne room. in TCG.

[Acorn]

Just something I can't see pointed out anywhere so far... And it's bugged me.

Cause, on 20 February 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

I feel like I am becoming a broken record but what the hell happened to the Malazan series. I feel like its become an unending fiction engine. The only point of any book seems to be to throw out plot hooks for future books. My god when Triss told K'azz to go to Assail I almost felt like I was hearing a telephone operator telling me to put in an extra quarter to continue the conversation. Can Assail really deliver after all this hype? I'm not sure I even care anymore.

Um..... You still use pay phones that connect to operators through telephone lines from 1995?????

Must suck having to lug that phone booth everywhere... I guess it's easy access for quick change into Super Hero gear though!







Seriously though - a pay-phone reference?

Edit: I'm totally not serious by the way - don't think I'm being a prick or troll... Just couldn't help myself - and it made me laugh.

This post has been edited by Acorn: 26 February 2013 - 01:49 AM

[Cause]

worrywort, on 26 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

It seems to be his goal, at least as far back as the flashback of his visit to the Liosan throne room. in TCG.

Please refresh my memory I cant remember this. Anyone have an idea why he cant kill himself?

@Acorn- I had a different reference but it was not clean

[nacht]

Cause, on 26 February 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

worrywort, on 26 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

It seems to be his goal, at least as far back as the flashback of his visit to the Liosan throne room. in TCG.

Please refresh my memory I cant remember this. Anyone have an idea why he cant kill himself?

@Acorn- I had a different reference but it was not clean

In that conversation Kallor was challenging the Liosan to take him on. I attributed that to grief because of Serap's death but WorryWort's take is different.

There was a moment in RotCG I think when Traveller put his sword in him and he did not die.
I guess if you are not going to die, then you better not cut your own head off.

Kallor's character is quite complex but if I have to put it simply, he is a tyrant and losing control is anathema to him. I think soul shifting would have been an option, but he probably does not even want to share some other persons body.

The only moment I remember where Kallor had some regret was when he was battling Spinnock Durav. But that might be because everybody likes Spinnock