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Connecticut shooting, guns, and wtf to do

#141 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostShinrei, on 18 December 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Worrywort brings up brass knuckle bans. Our society has decided we don't want them, and given their lack of function beyond fighting (no hunting, target practice or colletibility) no one cares. But society has made that decision - "Our people don't need brass knuckles, but we can trust them to own guns". And for the majority, that trust is well placed. Our modern lives are ruled in almost every aspect by some sort of authority. Where we can build, what sort of work we can get, how much money we must give over to the State etc. I'm pro-choice for the same reason I'm pro gun, to be honest. The logical, rational side of me understands that the State has no business regulating a woman's body in that manner, even though the emotional side of me believes that most aborted fetuses, if brought to term and then interviewed at age 25 would say "I'm happy to be alive."


I would say society didn't decide that, because it was already imprinted in the Bill of Rights right next to actual important things, so we never had to sort it out rationally. And we've paid a horrible price for having never had to reason it out, and a fetish lobby with a ridiculous level of influence does all it can to maintain that status quo by opposing tooth and nail any attempt at reason.
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#142 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:02 AM

*sigh*

This is why all my psycho "religiously conservative" relatives think I'm somewhere to the left of Che Guavera and all my liberal friends think I like reading Mein Kampf and Stormfront.

The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States exists. That is inarguable. Right, wrong, left, right, Utopia, Dystopia, "the timeline is unimportant", Russell's Teapot and Invisible Pink Unicorns. All irrelevant. IT EXISTS.

The constitution contains a process by which amendments can be used to change it. Fact.

My country has within it numerous groups, associations, individuals, corporations, scholars, nutbags, Nobel scientists, nose picking yahoos, fakirs, shaman, and Sean Penn. Fact.

All of those are actively hostile towards the parts of the constitution that they don't like. Fact.

So. My defense of what should be the indefensible:

The Bill of Rights is a monoblock. The process is "ludicrous" as Silencer put it, but the fact remains that there is an amendment process in place. If enough citizens decide that something should be changed, it can be changed. The mere existence of a Bill of Rights was argued strenuously before the Constitution was ever ratified. Alexander Hamilton argued that amendments guaranteeing rights were not needed because there was nothing in the constitution that allowed the government to restrict those rights. He further stated that a bill of rights would eventually turn the constitution from a document that was 'this is all the government is allowed to do' into one that "government is allowed to do anything except these'. He was absolutely correct. But James Madison and others forced a bill of rights into the document by demanding that these specific rights should always be protected explicitly because eventually somebody would say "the constitution doesn't say we can't do this so we're going to do it". And they were unequivocally correct.

Legislative, judicial, or executive decisions and actions that chip into a particular piece of that monoblock can be used, WILL be used, by others to chip away at the sections they don't like. I have to defend against such actions on the basis, not of what I think should be or should not be, but on the basis that a civil right that I don't like MUST BE protected so that others cannot attack the civil rights that I do like.

The US Constitution is 223 years old. It is not holy writ. It is not perfect. The list of things it is not is nearly endless. But it is law. And it was written and ratified by people who thought that law should be applied to all people. (Yes, many if not most of those people had a horrible moral view of who was human and who was not. And the "judge them by their own standards and time" argument is facetious on its face: there were many contemporary voices who vociferously challenged that definition of "human".)

Those of you outside the US who have stated that our constitution pales in comparison with the constitutions of other industrialized countries and that "we should just change the damn thing" need to be aware that the last serious attempt at amendment was rejected. And it simply stated that women were equal to men. The chances of peacefully passing any amendments in the current environment are effectively zero. This is not new. Despite the millions of people over the years who claim to revere it, 2% of the population left the country before it was even ratified. Another 2% died in a disastrous civil war. 2% of the population would be 6 million people today.

I abhor the crimes committed under its existence; crimes too numerous to list. The direct genocide of millions of people and destruction of entire cultures championed by men who said the way to peace was "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". The millions more dead and destroyed by the concept that owning another human being was right, proper, and moral. But it has outlasted those men. It has withstood the Draft Riots, the Palmer Raids, McCarthyism, Jim Crowe, Race Riots, Watergate, and several presidents "who would be king". I loathe the idea that it might not stand against the fear, obfuscation, uncertainty, and doubt flamed into full fire by 19 people willing to kill for god. For there are multitudes in this country who would be happy to do the same for their god.

I find that as I get older, I get less and less tolerant of stupidity. Of people who simply can not or, worse, will not see facts. Prohibition does not work. It does not work. It. Does. Not. Work. But there are millions of people in this country who fervently believe that it will work for the things they don't like. If we would "just take back our country". If we would just follow the social sciences. If we would just let them tell us what to do, how to live, how to think. The Bill of Rights is the only thing that stands between me and those "right thinking" people. I ethically cannot let those people win. I morally will not let those people win.

The reality is that children die. Steven Erikson's best lines in his millions of words are "That's a succinct summary of humankind, I'd say. Who needs tomes and volumes of history? Children are dying. The injustices of the world hide in those three words."

Children die because some people think that praying cures pneumonia. Children die because some people think that widely accessible military type rifles are their right. Children die because some people think that health care is wasted on people who can't afford it. Children die because far too many people in this country put a piece of paper before facts. But that piece of paper is often times what has stood between children and the demagogues, the saviors, the planners.

I defend the indefensible because as we grow, as we mature, and, bluntly, as we die off, things can get better.

Things have gotten better. Children die less often now than 50 years ago. Children died less then than 50 years prior to that. The Bill of Rights is, in my evidently not so humble opinion, the best chance our country has to continue that trend. Because it is law. And, for now, that law applies to everyone.

Things can get worse. Machiavelli told us what Princes do. Hobbes told us that Princes are not instituted by god. Locke told us that Princes have only the power that we give them. Rousseau told us that we don't need Princes. The American revolution promised an end to the authority of Princes. France's revolution showed us that that the crowd could be worse than the Princes. Marx and Engels told us we could have a world without Princes. Nero, Torquemada, and Calvin had shown us a little bit of what Princes without limits could do. Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot showed us Princes with no limits and technology. They opened wide the the gates of hell.

There is no doubt in my mind that a determined 6 million people, any given 2% of my fellow citizens, would happily kill children to give us back a Prince; so long as he was their prince. And despite what so many people think, guns are not what holds those people from pushing us through the gates in the attempt to impose their prince. It is that monoblock piece of paper. Someday enough people will decide that "enough is enough". Then, with arguments bitter and rancorous, with fights at the dinner table, with uncountable letters to the editor, they will peacefully amend that piece of paper.

Children will still die by violence Children will still die by guns. But they will die in lower numbers. And my country will be a tiny bit better.

That is my defense of the indefensible.



Now I shall go back to the mafia thread and, if still alive, I will do my damnedest to lynch somebody.
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#143 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:11 AM

And if that doesn't get me an application to the fowl hateocracy, nothing will.

:)
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#144 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:01 AM

I don't know why you think saying 'you give up trying to change things you don't like because other people might try to change things you like' would get you an invite to Illy's group, but whatever floats your boat.
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#145 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:12 AM

To summarize for the TL;DR crowd: He's gonna defend the indefensible, so hold onto your butts. The Bill of Rights is special, sacrosanct, even by Constitutional standards, and the 2nd is there ("IT EXISTS"). It's hard to add Amendments for a reason, you lousy foreigners with your cheap shots. Then some weird riff on "When they came for the Jews I did nothing, for I was not one.....etc. When they came for me there was nobody left to defend me" except about civil rights. Then he calls people stupid for believing prohibition will work with guns (which he doesn't mention by name, but you can just tell), when it has failed with the vices. Then he talks about the Bill of Rights as a whole using the same language people use about guns (it can be a tool used to do great harm and evil, which is enough to make one sad for sure, but it can also be a tool for great good). He lists out various ways children die. It's complex because on the one hand, the Bill of Rights has led to so much death; on the other hand, it has preserved so much life. And in general we seem to be on an upward course, maybe in starts and fits, but it's an upward trending line. You can tell he really loves this country and its most fundamental document. Then he recites "Two Princes" by the Spin Doctors, but changes the words so they're about killing people instead of love. Finally, he comes to the big twist, the most shocking moment in the whole essay: what he means by "defending the indefensible" isn't a defense of the 2nd Amendment, he's actually defending changing the foremost sacrosanct American document so that the 2nd Amendment reads differently somehow. It will take time, great arguments, cantankerous battles, hand-wringing, and the gnashing of teeth, but it will eventually happen. And it hurts either way. I honestly did not see that twist coming, it was like early M. Night. A serious roller coaster right through Heaven and Hell.
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#146 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:17 AM

View PostObdigore, on 19 December 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

I don't know why you think saying 'you give up trying to change things you don't like because other people might try to change things you like' would get you an invite to Illy's group, but whatever floats your boat.


I was thinking that calling 90% of the thread stupid. And meaning it.
*shrug*
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#147 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:24 AM

View PostGnaw, on 19 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

View PostObdigore, on 19 December 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

I don't know why you think saying 'you give up trying to change things you don't like because other people might try to change things you like' would get you an invite to Illy's group, but whatever floats your boat.


I was thinking that calling 90% of the thread stupid. And meaning it.
*shrug*


I direct you to my signature, since you clearly think anyone with a different anything than you is a moron.
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#148 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:29 AM

That was somehow simultaneously the most wishy-washy AND the most hysterical post in this thread by a landslide. It was also maybe the most insulting (apparently deliberately), but I'm not against insults personally, even if they take 5-10 minutes to land. That said, this post isn't an insult, just an observation. Glad you contributed!
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#149 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:26 AM

[
To summarize for the TL;DR crowd:
Yep. That's a summary.
He's gonna defend the indefensible, so hold onto your butts. The Bill of Rights is special, sacrosanct, even by Constitutional standards, and the 2nd is there ("IT EXISTS").

Not special. Not sacrosanct. Just there.

It's hard to add Amendments for a reason, you lousy foreigners with your cheap shots.

Yes, not at all, and the cheap shots are yours. It is hard to change for a reason. I give the reason why it is hard. I never say that that is good. Don't even think I imply it. As for the foreigners I neither say nor imply that they are crazy, bad, or even wrong. There are better constitutions. Unfortunately it is irrelevant. We are discussing the US one specifically.


Then some weird riff on "When they came for the Jews I did nothing, for I was not one.....etc. When they came for me there was nobody left to defend me" except about civil rights.

Not certain where you got that, but the quote is in line with what I said and meant.
Then he calls people stupid for believing prohibition will work with guns (which he doesn't mention by name, but you can just tell), when it has failed with the vices.

Good eye. Your first clue that I was talking about guns might have been the title of the thread. But, since you couldn't just tell, I was also speaking of drugs, homosexuality (defense of marriage act, don't ask don't tell), abortion, abstinence only education, all sorts of things that people of all political stripes think will just go away if they really wish it hard enough. Then he talks about the Bill of Rights as a whole using the same language people use about guns (it can be a tool used to do great harm and evil, which is enough to make one sad for sure, but it can also be a tool for great good).

Uh. Not really but go with it if it makes you feel better. I also use the same language people use about drugs, homosexuality, abor.. uh, what I said up there.
He lists out various ways children die. It's complex because on the one hand, the Bill of Rights has led to so much death; on the other hand, it has preserved so much life. And in general we seem to be on an upward course, maybe in starts and fits, but it's an upward trending line. You can tell he really loves this country and its most fundamental document.

Heh. I don't love my country. I get very suspicious of the "Love your country" ideal. It's more than a little cliched and rarely true. I feel a duty to it. (And, yes, I am a veteran.). Yes, I do place great value in the constitution. Those foreigners seem to value theirs but again that is irrelevant because it is the US one being discussed. I don't love the constitution. There are big parts of it I don't like. Others that I do. Then he recites "Two Princes" by the Spin Doctors, but changes the words so they're about killing people instead of love.

Oh so badly off on that one. Machiavelli wrote a book entitled The Prince. You may have heard of it. I feel fairly certain that more people have heard of Machiavelli than the Spin Doctors. (Good band but doubt they have the legs to stay relevant as long as Niccolo.) If you didn't catch The Prince reference you probably haven't heard of most of rest of them. They were mostly all solo artists with niche audiences. Though to be fair, Marx and Engels did have a single that stayed in the charts for quite awhile. Finally, he comes to the big twist, the most shocking moment in the whole essay: what he means by "defending the indefensible" isn't a defense of the 2nd Amendment, he's actually defending changing the foremost sacrosanct American document so that the 2nd Amendment reads differently somehow.

Nope. Meant the 2nd. Again, not sacrosanct. And misses the point ever so widely. As do most. I don't like the second amendment. The Civil War put paid to the "militia" relevance. Dr. Gatling the technological relevance. I think assault riffles should be illegal. But that will not make them disappear. It will make them harder to get. I do not think "guns" should be illegal nor can they be eliminated simply because people wish them away. It will take time, great arguments, cantankerous battles, hand-wringing, and the gnashing of teeth, but it will eventually happen. And it hurts either way. I honestly did not see that twist coming, it was like early M. Night. A serious roller coaster right through Heaven and Hell.

I am not at all certain that it will happen eventually. I'm not even particularly optimistic that it will ever happen. If we can't get 66% of the country to agree that women are equal to men then the 2nd has no chance of repeal.
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#150 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:29 AM

View PostObdigore, on 19 December 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

View PostGnaw, on 19 December 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

View PostObdigore, on 19 December 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

I don't know why you think saying 'you give up trying to change things you don't like because other people might try to change things you like' would get you an invite to Illy's group, but whatever floats your boat.


I was thinking that calling 90% of the thread stupid. And meaning it.
*shrug*


I direct you to my signature, since you clearly think anyone with a different anything than you is a moron.


Nope. Most definitely do not think people who disagree with me are morons.

View Postworrywort, on 19 December 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

That was somehow simultaneously the most wishy-washy AND the most hysterical post in this thread by a landslide. It was also maybe the most insulting (apparently deliberately), but I'm not against insults personally, even if they take 5-10 minutes to land. That said, this post isn't an insult, just an observation. Glad you contributed!


Thank you. I tried.
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#151 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:49 AM

The point is actually very simple.
It does not matter what my opinion of the 2nd amendment is. Nor yours. Or nacht's. Or Shin's. There are only 9 opinions that count.
If you want to "get rid of guns" you have 2 choices:
  • Hope that Alito, Roberts, Scalia, and/or Thomas stroke out after the seating of the next Congress but before the 2014 primaries.
  • Amend the constitution.

Screaming "guns are bad" at crazy NRA members while they scream "2nd amendment" at crazy Coalition to Ban Handgun members is
  • Stupid
  • Wasteful
  • Disrespectful to yourselves and your opponents.
  • And, worst imnsho, simply allows those who like the status quo to do nothing. And win.

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#152 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostGnaw, on 19 December 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

The point is actually very simple.
It does not matter what my opinion of the 2nd amendment is. Nor yours. Or nacht's. Or Shin's. There are only 9 opinions that count.
If you want to "get rid of guns" you have 2 choices:
  • Hope that Alito, Roberts, Scalia, and/or Thomas stroke out after the seating of the next Congress but before the 2014 primaries.
  • Amend the constitution.

Screaming "guns are bad" at crazy NRA members while they scream "2nd amendment" at crazy Coalition to Ban Handgun members is
  • Stupid
  • Wasteful
  • Disrespectful to yourselves and your opponents.
  • And, worst imnsho, simply allows those who like the status quo to do nothing. And win.


So we should all stop talking about it because you don't see any solutions? Amazing reasoning there.
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#153 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:00 AM

I assume your reply included responses to me for some odd reason but I can't see the colors red or green. Could you repost using blue?

And to those of you who have decided not to post your dissertation for all to read as if that constitutes conversation, it appears that the most popular "gun control" notion being floated in the House is banning high-capacity magazines...what do you think? Decent first step in the right direction? A drop in the pond? Any chance in hell of passing either way?
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#154 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:35 AM

Former head of the CDC and the House Rep who slahsed the CDC's funding for the NRA wrote an opinion piece together.

http://www.washingto...enEX_story.html

Enjoy.
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#155 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostObdigore, on 19 December 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Former head of the CDC and the House Rep who slahsed the CDC's funding for the NRA wrote an opinion piece together.

http://www.washingto...enEX_story.html

Enjoy.


Hilarious and pointless waste of time that article was.

I've not read the entire thread, anyone mention the China attack?
http://www.voanews.c...ol/1567029.html

Its a lot harder to kill multiple people with a knife you know.
Course China isn't a free country and the USA is. So, kids grow up alive in a tyranny or die as kids in a free country. Which is better?
Interesting question actually.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 19 December 2012 - 11:13 AM

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#156 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:14 AM

Ignoring article because you don't like what it says?

I LOVE GUNS!!!!!!!!
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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

I read the article. I didn't ignore it. I just disagreed with it.
The cause of gun violence is simple. Guns. The mindset of the attacker is irrelevant if he is limited by the choice of weapon he can obtain.
China (an unfree county and probably a state that the 2th amendment was designed to prevent occuring in the US?) prevented kids from dying. A free country did not. All due to the capability of the attacker in the US to get hands on long range comparatively much easier to use weapons. The Chinese guy had a knife. Big difference. Doesn't matter what the mindset of the killer is if he doesn't have the means to carry out the rampage.
Everything else is just pointless irrelevant talk at the end of the day. Not that I'm saying to ban guns. I'ts not my country. I'm saying that if you accept mass-shootings than there is no reason to stop loving guns. Just don't imagine there is any other way to prevent mass-shootings cos there almost certainly isn't.

People accept cars, yet there is car accidents every day that kill many many people. Accept guns and accept mass-shootings. End of.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 19 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

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#158 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:43 PM

View Postblackzoid, on 19 December 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

I read the article. I didn't ignore it. I just disagreed with it.
The cause of gun violence is simple. Guns. The mindset of the attacker is irrelevant if he is limited by the choice of weapon he can obtain.
China (an unfree county and probably a state that the 2th amendment was designed to prevent occuring in the US?) prevented kids from dying. A free country did not. All due to the capability of the attacker in the US to get hands on long range comparatively much easier to use weapons. The Chinese guy had a knife. Big difference. Doesn't matter what the mindset of the killer is if he doesn't have the means to carry out the rampage.
Everything else is just pointless irrelevant talk at the end of the day. Not that I'm saying to ban guns. I'ts not my country. I'm saying that if you accept mass-shootings than there is no reason to stop loving guns. Just don't imagine there is any other way to prevent mass-shootings cos there almost certainly isn't.

People accept cars, yet there is car accidents every day that kill many many people. Accept guns and accept mass-shootings. End of.


Surely there are free countries that do not allow, or severly limit access to guns?
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#159 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:09 PM

Yes, but by many people's definition (liberterians and such) they would not be considered "free" countries.
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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

Well then surely it boils down to impugning human rights (probably the wrong word)

do we infringe on millions of peoples rights by banning them their guns?
or do we infringe on children's right not to be gunned down by a maniac?
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