[Silanah]

Spite, on 19 December 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

<snip>

Liosan, did you toss something incapacitating at somebody last night and now find it reflected back on you? That would be rather upsetting.

Vote Liosan

Read the OP.

Quote

Order of Resolution for Night Actions: Incapacitate > Block/Reflect > Guard > Control > Heal > Kill
Certain special abilities have special rules that may supercede the order of resolution.

Read the fucking manual to get your facts straight before you start a wild chase.

Incapacitate comes before reflect so if Lio is incapacitated, it could not have been by a reflect unless that reflect was also a special ability that superceded the normal order of resolution.

Furthermore, you tie "Lio can incapacitate" (no proof apart from his rather pissy inquiry into resolution)" to "Lio is scum". That's jumping the gun a bit. You thereby assume that the incapacitating action (if it is vote blocking) is limited to scum only. Dangerous assumption, in and by itself, and always a bit scummy in a tmdi 10 game, where likely everyone has abilities and few will be limited to one side, apart perhaps from kills, the traditional scum ability.

I also consider it rather strange that you are so certain that Lio incapacitated someone, when I haven't seen any definition of 'incapacitate'. Looks like you know more than I do. In fact, your post smacks a bit like someone really eager to reap the benefits of their own night action.

All in all, to me it seems that you are pressing a lynch using either deliberately faulty logic and/or superior knowledge (a misrepresentation of the order of resolution of reflect & incapacitate, and superior knowledge of what constitutes 'incapacitate'), or logic that is tied to several assumptions and/or at the least a misunderstanding of action resolution (the leaps of faith being 1) incapacitate is what the vote block is, 2) Lio's target had a reflect that was also special, and 3) Lio is pissed because he is targeted by his own action).
To me, that sounds sympish, especially considering how easily a faulty lynch can be laughed off later on by "oops, I misunderstood mechanics, lol".

There are several scenarios here that are a better explanation (one of them being, Lio can reflect and is pissed off because he figured he might be immune). You didn't even consider that but vote straight away. To me, that is extremely aggressive and traditional symp behavior.

Vote Galain.

I feel like your suspicions have basis. The logical leaps are quite big leaps. Galain might be going off gut right now, but even gut doesnt totally make up for lack of logical reasoning i'm most concerned by the vote, however. A vote on something such as a percieved ability and it's possible reflection on alignment is not solid evidence to go on. However, Spite, you go on to do something similar. Why vote the symp and not the master? Why not look for connections and go off if those?

[Path-Shaper]

It is now Day 2. 14 hours 7 minutes remaining.

14 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Atrahal, Emurlahn, Fener, Galain, Karosis, Kaschan, Liosan, Osseric, Silanah, Spite, Tennes, Tulas Shorn

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

1 Vote Ampelas : Osseric
1 Vote Liosan : Galain
1 Vote Galain : Spite

Players not voted: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Atrahal, Emurlahn, Fener, Karosis, Kaschan, Liosan, Silanah, Tennes, Tulas Shorn

[Galain]

Spite, on 19 December 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

<snip>

Liosan, did you toss something incapacitating at somebody last night and now find it reflected back on you? That would be rather upsetting.

Vote Liosan

Read the OP.

Quote

Order of Resolution for Night Actions: Incapacitate > Block/Reflect > Guard > Control > Heal > Kill
Certain special abilities have special rules that may supercede the order of resolution.

Read the fucking manual to get your facts straight before you start a wild chase.

Incapacitate comes before reflect so if Lio is incapacitated, it could not have been by a reflect unless that reflect was also a special ability that superceded the normal order of resolution.

Furthermore, you tie "Lio can incapacitate" (no proof apart from his rather pissy inquiry into resolution)" to "Lio is scum". That's jumping the gun a bit. You thereby assume that the incapacitating action (if it is vote blocking) is limited to scum only. Dangerous assumption, in and by itself, and always a bit scummy in a tmdi 10 game, where likely everyone has abilities and few will be limited to one side, apart perhaps from kills, the traditional scum ability.

I also consider it rather strange that you are so certain that Lio incapacitated someone, when I haven't seen any definition of 'incapacitate'. Looks like you know more than I do. In fact, your post smacks a bit like someone really eager to reap the benefits of their own night action.

All in all, to me it seems that you are pressing a lynch using either deliberately faulty logic and/or superior knowledge (a misrepresentation of the order of resolution of reflect & incapacitate, and superior knowledge of what constitutes 'incapacitate'), or logic that is tied to several assumptions and/or at the least a misunderstanding of action resolution (the leaps of faith being 1) incapacitate is what the vote block is, 2) Lio's target had a reflect that was also special, and 3) Lio is pissed because he is targeted by his own action).
To me, that sounds sympish, especially considering how easily a faulty lynch can be laughed off later on by "oops, I misunderstood mechanics, lol".

There are several scenarios here that are a better explanation (one of them being, Lio can reflect and is pissed off because he figured he might be immune). You didn't even consider that but vote straight away. To me, that is extremely aggressive and traditional symp behavior.

Vote Galain.

Wow. More words there than all your posts combined.

So, yeah, I'll back through it for you.

PS:

Path-Shaper, on 13 December 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

though everyone starts with at least one ability.

Days will be 36 hours, Nights will be 6 hours (or resolution when all actions are in if it's prior to the 6 hours being up).

The game will be frozen from December 21 to 26, and December 29 to late in the day of January 1.

Order of Resolution for Night Actions: Incapacitate > Block/Reflect > Guard > Control > Heal > Kill
Certain special abilities have special rules that may supercede the order of resolution.

Order of Resolution for successful Blocks/Reflects: Kill > Guard > Incapacitate > Heal
Abilities not listed above will not be blocked or reflected

So the fucking manual says that if Liosan tossed a Guard at somebody with a Reflect, the Reflect triggers before the Guard. If Liosan had tossed a Kill and it reflected, he would be dead because on successful Reflects, Kill has higher priority than Guard.

I am not taking into account the "special abilities" yet because I don't know of any. EVERYONE has one ability though.

Simply using standard abilities Liosan's guard could have been reflected back by a standard reflection ability.

Now, as you yourself said Spite:

Quote

I have no clue about the show, but ability wise, vote blocking is pretty strong, and sounds a bit more severe than something a simple grunt (or average police officer) would be able to do, doesn't it?

If Liosan's Guard has a special that adds vote blocking and it was reflected by a standard ability, Liosan ends up Guarded and Vote Blocked.

Again, Liosan seems to be freaking out not about the "what" of what happened, but the "how" of it. As in "How the fuck did I get vote blocked."

I add into that the slightly weird vote on Ruse, which is weak but that others have also seen as weird, and concluded that Liosan is suspicious.

Hence, the vote.

Yes, I make assumptions. But without making assumptions, we have fucking little to go on.

But maybe your passionate response is because you know things we don't know. Like maybe the identity of Liosan.

[Tennes]

One thing I've just thought of about Spite's argument - the Equalists are already one person down, which surely must have made them reel a bit. Would they be as forward as to aggressively start a case on someone, or would they all look to keep their heads down and jump on any train available which is not them? I mean, as we've already seen, Galain is straight away in the firing line for his case.

Not saying that Spite doesn't have it right, but it's also not as definite to me as it seems to be with Spite.

[Galain]

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I feel like you contradict yourself here Galain. You first suggest that the non-NK is connected to the 2 vote-blocked, and then you vote Lio while accusing him of incapacitating himself due to a reflect?

we know there were no equalist NKs.

we think there might have been 2 people who didn't get orders in.

we know that there are 2 people who were incapacitated/guarded last night. They can't vote today.

Spite pointed out that an action that would keep somebody from voting would possibly be limited to more powerful roles.

Karosis seems perplexed about what happened to him.

Liosan seems very upset about how it happened to him. to the point of carping at PS.


The no NKs could be equalists didn't get their orders in in time. Or it could be that they were incapacitated/guarded. Or one of each.

Liosan sounds to me like he ordered something and is unhappy with the results. Not with the mechanism of the result. But how that result happened to him.

I'll ask them both: did you get your orders in last night?

see what they say.

Any thoughts on this one Spite? I'm certainly not being anything approaching zealotry here, You seem awfully interested in keeping the focus off Liosan.

[Galain]

Spite, on 19 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Even kills can't be held as one side's ability as OE was killed by friendly fire from republic city forces, which are kiind of a town faction... And yet equalists haven't killed anyone yet.
Maybe you know scum (equalists) have a kill because you're a killer equalist.

I just go by the traditionalist book, which reads scum > town when it comes to night actions, and what action is more powerful than a kill?

Isn't there also a page in that book that says wildly flying off the handle when somebody points a finger at your boss is a bit scummy?

[Galain]

Spite, on 19 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Even kills can't be held as one side's ability as OE was killed by friendly fire from republic city forces, which are kiind of a town faction... And yet equalists haven't killed anyone yet.
Maybe you know scum (equalists) have a kill because you're a killer equalist.

Also, that's quite a blatant defense of Galain there, attacking someone who attacks him, by-passing all the other (reasonable, well-thought out, logical) parts of my posts. Symp?

pot. kettle.

I am hungry, so I'm going to go to Burger King or Wendy's. But my vote is pretty much stuck to Liosan at this point. Thank you Spite.

[Fener]

Not gonna lie, the severity of Spite's response to the pressure on Lio (which hasn't even translated to votes really) seems a bit dodgy.

[Karosis]

I put in a provisional with in 1 hour of me getting online and having read the thread.

My action failed.

still catching up

[Spite]

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I feel like you contradict yourself here Galain. You first suggest that the non-NK is connected to the 2 vote-blocked, and then you vote Lio while accusing him of incapacitating himself due to a reflect?

we know there were no equalist NKs.

we think there might have been 2 people who didn't get orders in.

we know that there are 2 people who were incapacitated/guarded last night. They can't vote today.

Spite pointed out that an action that would keep somebody from voting would possibly be limited to more powerful roles.

Karosis seems perplexed about what happened to him.

Liosan seems very upset about how it happened to him. to the point of carping at PS.


The no NKs could be equalists didn't get their orders in in time. Or it could be that they were incapacitated/guarded. Or one of each.

Liosan sounds to me like he ordered something and is unhappy with the results. Not with the mechanism of the result. But how that result happened to him.

I'll ask them both: did you get your orders in last night?

see what they say.

Any thoughts on this one Spite? I'm certainly not being anything approaching zealotry here, You seem awfully interested in keeping the focus off Liosan.

May I congratulate you on that last bolded, italicized phase? That's basically preparing tar and brush to tarnish me with the "symp" brush if I keep it up, and tarnish me with "distancing" if I back off - not bad, especially not if you're a symp

I still agree on my earlier statement. Vote blocking is damned powerful and I'd see it as an upper echelon ability. I think it unlikely that amongst the players who have posted today, anyone would NOT have come forward with this, especially after Karosis did.

I can't answer if Liosan put his action in. I agree that he's jumpy - and if you're antsy and insecure, you ought to PM Path-Shaper. Especially if you're a powerhouse. I'll have to re-read the entire convo though - does it point at him being pissed off about the vote block, or about something else?

[Galain]

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

I feel like your suspicions have basis. The logical leaps are quite big leaps. Galain might be going off gut right now, but even gut doesnt totally make up for lack of logical reasoning i'm most concerned by the vote, however. A vote on something such as a percieved ability and it's possible reflection on alignment is not solid evidence to go on. However, Spite, you go on to do something similar. Why vote the symp and not the master? Why not look for connections and go off if those?

He's giving us connections. More meaningful activity on thread in the last hour than all of day 1.

Just for shits and grins, why doesn't somebody drop a vote on Spite for further reactions. Or a 2nd one on Liosan and see if Spite actually goes stratospheric.

Bye now. Frosty beats out BK onion rings I think.

[Silanah]

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Not gonna lie, the severity of Spite's response to the pressure on Lio (which hasn't even translated to votes really) seems a bit dodgy.

I feel like either Galain or Spite or Lio is an equalist.

[Silanah]

There seem to be lines drawn. Spite, and by extension Lio (i feel like theres a connection there), vs Galain

[Spite]

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I feel like you contradict yourself here Galain. You first suggest that the non-NK is connected to the 2 vote-blocked, and then you vote Lio while accusing him of incapacitating himself due to a reflect?

we know there were no equalist NKs.

we think there might have been 2 people who didn't get orders in.

we know that there are 2 people who were incapacitated/guarded last night. They can't vote today.

Spite pointed out that an action that would keep somebody from voting would possibly be limited to more powerful roles.

Karosis seems perplexed about what happened to him.

Liosan seems very upset about how it happened to him. to the point of carping at PS.


The no NKs could be equalists didn't get their orders in in time. Or it could be that they were incapacitated/guarded. Or one of each.

Liosan sounds to me like he ordered something and is unhappy with the results. Not with the mechanism of the result. But how that result happened to him.

I'll ask them both: did you get your orders in last night?

see what they say.

Any thoughts on this one Spite? I'm certainly not being anything approaching zealotry here, You seem awfully interested in keeping the focus off Liosan.

I am awfully interested in keeping the focus of the discussion within the realm of possibility - which the original wording of your case wasn't. Your case on Liosan stated 'incapacitated'. That was a mistake.

By the by, I see you changed it to vote block now... combining guards (known ability) and block (unknown ability) into one, abother 'what if' scenario.

Which is especially funny considering the two quotes below....

Quote

I am not taking into account the "special abilities" yet because I don't know of any. EVERYONE has one ability though.

and from the same post:

Quote

If Liosan's Guard has a special that adds vote blocking and it was reflected by a standard ability, Liosan ends up Guarded and Vote Blocked.

Once again, count the steps required to produce this effect. It may be true. In which case, you are a fucking genius at predicting mechanics and how abilities tie in. But to me, it sounds like you are grasping at straws and trying to build a mansion out of them. You then blame me for blowing your house away.

[Tennes]

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Not gonna lie, the severity of Spite's response to the pressure on Lio (which hasn't even translated to votes really) seems a bit dodgy.

I feel like either Galain or Spite or Lio is an equalist.

Agreed.

Interesting that Karosis has come back saying his action failed - because his target had some kind of protection, or was it part of the vote block ability? If the same is true for Liosan, then I would side with it being part of the vote block ability I think.

[Spite]

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Not gonna lie, the severity of Spite's response to the pressure on Lio (which hasn't even translated to votes really) seems a bit dodgy.

Do you like a debate based on faulty premises? I don't. That was reason one. Reason 2 why I came on so strong was that Galain had everyone nodding along - trains have started for worse than that.

[Spite]

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

There seem to be lines drawn. Spite, and by extension Lio (i feel like theres a connection there), vs Galain

Le sigh. This always happens when a third person rubbishes someone elses case.

[Atrahal]

Have just finished my read up, my first suspicion is Fener because of his reaction to no equalist kill. He very much seems to be trying to get us to underestimate the and assume the least of their abilities. Also in another post it looks like he's trying to get a Guard to reveal.

so at the moment im very much in favour of a Fener lynch.

Vote Fener

On the Liosan case, i must admit that Galains reasoning seems slightly flawed and far fetched but i do think Liosan seems a bit dodgy. His post after the lynch very much seemed to be over cheery like he was trying very hard to look happy that an equalist had been voted off. then the debating of the action order does as people have mentioned seem like he may have not got his NA through like he was hoping. So i could definitely be persuaded to go for Liosan i think, especially as i think i noticed a bit of defence from Fener as well.

[Spite]

Anyway, I am off. When Galain is done with stuffing his face, the field is his again - I guess he'll use it to the full extent.
Imho, he is currently really trying to allow his case to fit his suspicions, considering the modifications he so easily makes, which are only a tiny bit more probable.

[Path-Shaper]

It is now Day 2. 13 hours 20 minutes remaining.

14 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Atrahal, Emurlahn, Fener, Galain, Karosis, Kaschan, Liosan, Osseric, Silanah, Spite, Tennes, Tulas Shorn

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

1 Vote Ampelas : Osseric
1 Vote Liosan : Galain
1 Vote Galain : Spite
1 Vote Fener : Atrahal

Players not voted: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Emurlahn, Fener, Karosis, Kaschan, Liosan, Silanah, Tennes, Tulas Shorn