[Fener]

I must unknowingly be the dreadfather this game because everyone flees at my arrival...I'm out for a bit.

[Galain]

Ampelas, on 19 December 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

What's the deal Galain? You come on and point out your own avatar spamming and then CONTINUE TO DO MORE OF IT without contributing elsewise.

Or were you just warning us with that post (#214) that this was your grand plan of action?

between post 210 and 226 5 hours had elapsed. I went to bed.

[Galain]

Path-Shaper, on 18 December 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

A few people on each side of the fight were injured, and though he fought valiantly, Officer Song was killed in action. Upon examination of his corpse at a later time, Chief Beifong surmised that he was most likely hit by a stray fire bending by the United Forces.

Path-Shaper, on 19 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

I said there were no clues in the lynch scene. There are clues in the night scene.

Stray fire. I.e. friendly fire.

Only one death in the night. Republic killed by friendly fire. Ampelas seems to want to insist it was a vig.

We have zero equalist NKs.

Possibly 2 people who didn't get orders in.

And 2 people who were incapacitated(?) last night to the point they can't vote today.

Path-Shaper, on 19 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Liosan, on 19 December 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 19 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Firstly, a reflect reflects back onto the original user.

Apologies for not being a devout Avatar fan and therefore intrinsically knowing this or something...

Any chance we could get all the rules like this that people who have never heard of/read/watched this show/manga/thing would not know put in the OP?

It actually has nothing to do with Avatar, and everything to do with individual abilities. I thought a REflect was pretty clearly a REflect, and not a DEflect. Either way, if you don't have the ability, you don't really need to worry about it. Worry about YOUR abilities. I have played in many a game where I didn't know anything about certain abilities and did just fine. I'm sure you'll survive!

PS seems to have said that there is no "deflecting" going on. OE could have been vigged. (Was he a fire bender? if so, maybe he tossed something that reflected back on him?)

Now, if I combine two apparent guarding/incapacitating actions being used (Karosis and Liosan) with the zero equalist NKs, it leads me to believe that maybe just maybe those two things are connected.

Spite

Quote

I have no clue about the show, but ability wise, vote blocking is pretty strong, and sounds a bit more severe than something a simple grunt (or average police officer) would be able to do, doesn't it?

I'm going to go back and take a close look at both Karosis and Liosan. But on first impressions Karosis sounds perplexed while Liosan sounds indignant. To the point of making a rather large stink to PS about losing his voting privileges.

Liosan, did you toss something incapacitating at somebody last night and now find it reflected back on you? That would be rather upsetting.

Vote Liosan

[Fener]

I feel like you contradict yourself here Galain. You first suggest that the non-NK is connected to the 2 vote-blocked, and then you vote Lio while accusing him of incapacitating himself due to a reflect?

[Galain]

Liosan, on 18 December 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

We've got about 1.5 hours, so I'm going to wait a little before dropping a vote, just in case la Ruse comes back and wants to rant or rage-reveal or something.

Ruse, on 18 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

What?

I'm getting lynch? That's fine. I realize I am just not that into the game so getting killed by lynch is okay. I'm a bit role anyway so my faction will be fine without me.

Though it would have been nice to get a find on someone though.

Ruse, on 18 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

I'm not even going to bother to see how the lynch train got started. Eh.

Liosan, on 18 December 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

And there ya go!

Well,

Vote Ruse

If you've nothing more to say, you can hammer yourself if you want (an opportunity some people never get, ya know)

Heh. Confirmed equalist telling the boss what role the faction would be losing and leaving it up to the boss to play it out as needed?

It's a bit thin. but with Liosan's carping about the incapacitate/guard thing, it does put a little more stink on him.

[Galain]

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I feel like you contradict yourself here Galain. You first suggest that the non-NK is connected to the 2 vote-blocked, and then you vote Lio while accusing him of incapacitating himself due to a reflect?

we know there were no equalist NKs.

we think there might have been 2 people who didn't get orders in.

we know that there are 2 people who were incapacitated/guarded last night. They can't vote today.

Spite pointed out that an action that would keep somebody from voting would possibly be limited to more powerful roles.

Karosis seems perplexed about what happened to him.

Liosan seems very upset about how it happened to him. to the point of carping at PS.


The no NKs could be equalists didn't get their orders in in time. Or it could be that they were incapacitated/guarded. Or one of each.

Liosan sounds to me like he ordered something and is unhappy with the results. Not with the mechanism of the result. But how that result happened to him.

I'll ask them both: did you get your orders in last night?

see what they say.

[Galain]

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I feel like you contradict yourself here Galain. You first suggest that the non-NK is connected to the 2 vote-blocked, and then you vote Lio while accusing him of incapacitating himself due to a reflect?

Did I clear it up to your satisfaction?

[Osseric]

Lio did seem a bit pissy with PS and the way he resolved things. That was pretty obvious on thread.

[Fener]

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I feel like you contradict yourself here Galain. You first suggest that the non-NK is connected to the 2 vote-blocked, and then you vote Lio while accusing him of incapacitating himself due to a reflect?

Did I clear it up to your satisfaction?

Yeah, I see your reasoning for voting Lio. During the post where you voted him you also suggested he might've incapacitated himself, which means he probably isn't the killer. But getting scum is scum (if not amon), so I see where you're coming from.

[Tennes]

It's interesting you should bring up Lio. When I was going over the end-of-the-train votes, Lio's was the one that stuck out for me. First it seemed to me like a delaying tactic hoping some miracle would happen that wouldn't see Ruse lynched. But then straight after this Ruse came on with a 'reveal', which was so half-hearted you wonder why he even bothered...except that it made Lio's holding off look a little more valid - two minutes later Lio puts his vote down on Ruse. That entire ten-minute period looked weird to me.

Liosan, on 18 December 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

We've got about 1.5 hours, so I'm going to wait a little before dropping a vote, just in case la Ruse comes back and wants to rant or rage-reveal or something.

Initially I wasn't going to bother bringing this up because it was a less-than-flimsy suspicion, but now it looks like I'm not the only one who's looking at Lio, albeit for different reasons, so I thought I would add my two cents. Actually, what Galain said about the stopping of votes perhaps being related to no NKs last night (apart from the one which seems to have been done by a Republic person) is something which hadn't even occurred to me. Would that be too much of an ability though? Stop NKs AND block voting? Hmm. Not sure. The only thing which strengthens it for me a bit is that little tantrum that Lio has had at PS, which really does look like something didn't work out the way they expected it to.

[Path-Shaper]

It is now Day 2. 14 hours 43 minutes remaining.

14 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Atrahal, Emurlahn, Fener, Galain, Karosis, Kaschan, Liosan, Osseric, Silanah, Spite, Tennes, Tulas Shorn

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

1 Vote Ampelas : Osseric
1 Vote Liosan : Galain

Players not voted: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Atrahal, Emurlahn, Fener, Karosis, Kaschan, Liosan, Silanah, Spite, Tennes, Tulas Shorn

[Fener]

Galain is presenting those as two separate possibilities. Could be he tried to vote block someone and got reflected (explaining the frustration), or he got guarded last night.

Alternatively if Lio is scum he could just be lying. Didn't Karosis mention he got vote blocked first?

[Spite]

Galain, on 19 December 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

<snip>

Liosan, did you toss something incapacitating at somebody last night and now find it reflected back on you? That would be rather upsetting.

Vote Liosan

Read the OP.

Quote

Order of Resolution for Night Actions: Incapacitate > Block/Reflect > Guard > Control > Heal > Kill
Certain special abilities have special rules that may supercede the order of resolution.

Read the fucking manual to get your facts straight before you start a wild chase.

Incapacitate comes before reflect so if Lio is incapacitated, it could not have been by a reflect unless that reflect was also a special ability that superceded the normal order of resolution.

Furthermore, you tie "Lio can incapacitate" (no proof apart from his rather pissy inquiry into resolution)" to "Lio is scum". That's jumping the gun a bit. You thereby assume that the incapacitating action (if it is vote blocking) is limited to scum only. Dangerous assumption, in and by itself, and always a bit scummy in a tmdi 10 game, where likely everyone has abilities and few will be limited to one side, apart perhaps from kills, the traditional scum ability.

I also consider it rather strange that you are so certain that Lio incapacitated someone, when I haven't seen any definition of 'incapacitate'. Looks like you know more than I do. In fact, your post smacks a bit like someone really eager to reap the benefits of their own night action.

All in all, to me it seems that you are pressing a lynch using either deliberately faulty logic and/or superior knowledge (a misrepresentation of the order of resolution of reflect & incapacitate, and superior knowledge of what constitutes 'incapacitate'), or logic that is tied to several assumptions and/or at the least a misunderstanding of action resolution (the leaps of faith being 1) incapacitate is what the vote block is, 2) Lio's target had a reflect that was also special, and 3) Lio is pissed because he is targeted by his own action).
To me, that sounds sympish, especially considering how easily a faulty lynch can be laughed off later on by "oops, I misunderstood mechanics, lol".

There are several scenarios here that are a better explanation (one of them being, Lio can reflect and is pissed off because he figured he might be immune). You didn't even consider that but vote straight away. To me, that is extremely aggressive and traditional symp behavior.

Vote Galain.

[Silanah]

Even kills can't be held as one side's ability as OE was killed by friendly fire from republic city forces, which are kiind of a town faction... And yet equalists haven't killed anyone yet.
Maybe you know scum (equalists) have a kill because you're a killer equalist.

[Tennes]

Fener, on 19 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Galain is presenting those as two separate possibilities. Could be he tried to vote block someone and got reflected (explaining the frustration), or he got guarded last night.

Alternatively if Lio is scum he could just be lying. Didn't Karosis mention he got vote blocked first?

Well, the best thing to do is to get some kind of response on this from both Karosis and Liosan if they're willing.

[Spite]

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Even kills can't be held as one side's ability as OE was killed by friendly fire from republic city forces, which are kiind of a town faction... And yet equalists haven't killed anyone yet.
Maybe you know scum (equalists) have a kill because you're a killer equalist.

I just go by the traditionalist book, which reads scum > town when it comes to night actions, and what action is more powerful than a kill?

[Tennes]

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Even kills can't be held as one side's ability as OE was killed by friendly fire from republic city forces, which are kiind of a town faction... And yet equalists haven't killed anyone yet.
Maybe you know scum (equalists) have a kill because you're a killer equalist.

I know this isn't directed at me, but I already answered this kind of question from Fener some time earlier. One of the VCs for Equalists is that Korra must die, so it stands to reason that at least one of them has some kind of killing ability - Blend wouldn't give them nothing except the hope that Korra is lynched/caught in crossfire I don't think.

However, that's not to say that any killing ability might be limited somehow, which might be another reason why we saw nothing that seemed from them last night.

[Spite]

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Even kills can't be held as one side's ability as OE was killed by friendly fire from republic city forces, which are kiind of a town faction... And yet equalists haven't killed anyone yet.
Maybe you know scum (equalists) have a kill because you're a killer equalist.

Also, that's quite a blatant defense of Galain there, attacking someone who attacks him, by-passing all the other (reasonable, well-thought out, logical) parts of my posts. Symp?

[Silanah]

Spite, on 19 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Silanah, on 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Even kills can't be held as one side's ability as OE was killed by friendly fire from republic city forces, which are kiind of a town faction... And yet equalists haven't killed anyone yet.
Maybe you know scum (equalists) have a kill because you're a killer equalist.

Also, that's quite a blatant defense of Galain there, attacking someone who attacks him, by-passing all the other (reasonable, well-thought out, logical) parts of my posts. Symp?

There's a difference between attacking you and pointing something out. I didn't plan on pursuing anything against you. I find Lio much more suspicious. I'm about to respond to the rest of your post.

[Tennes]

Spite makes a good point about the order of resolution (though I kinda wish they'd kept it to themselves until we saw what Lio/Karosis came back with - imagine if they said 'yeah, we got it reflected back on ourselves', then Spite could BAM POW come back with that ). So I think that rules out Lio or Karo having their own ability screwing them over. There are other points which Galain made which aren't invalidated, however, as with the possibility that no Equalist kills could be related to the no voting allowed for Karo and Lio, which is the part that I found the most interesting from his case.

I'd like to hear again from Lio and Karo before advancing more thoughts on this.