[Gothos]

I'd like to take this moment to ask if there's a map of Jacuruku in B&B? Can one of you scan it perhaps?

[Defiance]

http://forum.malazan...pic=25012&st=20

About halfway down, Werthead has posted it.

[Moss]

Regarding the scenes with Saeng at the temple, the source of power is described as vitr, if i'm correct. We know from FoD and OST that it burns living flesh. Saeng submerged very deep into it, why is she not burned? We know Tayshrenn was unharmed as well, completly naked like Saeng. But he may be an Elder for all we know.

[Abyss]

Moss, on 10 December 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Regarding the scenes with Saeng at the temple, the source of power is described as vitr, if i'm correct. We know from FoD and OST that it burns living flesh. Saeng submerged very deep into it, why is she not burned? We know Tayshrenn was unharmed as well, completly naked like Saeng. But he may be an Elder for all we know.

I don't think that the vitr link was actually made...? blinding light energy, yes, but the liquid elements were missing.

I thought the energy was pure 'Light' in the Osserc/Kurald Thyrllan/High Thyr sense, while the Vitr appears to be something else, more primal.

Plus Saeng is by that point acting in the aspect of Priestess of Light, so she may have an element of immunity.

[tiam]

Seen as ice has alot more dealings with the liosan than se i assume it was light. I was expecting a link with the protectress of li heng to materialise and with a link to thryllan mentioned but no such luck. I wish it was explained as that segment struck me as abondoned temple of ancient power cliche without the usual malazn explanation where everything is linked to something elder.

[Abyss]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 17 December 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Seen as ice has alot more dealings with the liosan than se i assume it was light. I was expecting a link with the protectress of li heng to materialise and with a link to thryllan mentioned but no such luck. I wish it was explained as that segment struck me as abondoned temple of ancient power cliche without the usual malazn explanation where everything is linked to something elder.

Saeng spends the entire book angsting about her connection to ancient worship of the Light and being called High Priestess and then she steps into a massive column of Light and saves the world.
Seemed pretty clear in that Malazan way where we don't get everything spelled out for us.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I was gonna say, isn't that straight Kurald Thyrllan she is immersed in? Would it not have melted the temple floor like molten stone? Of course it COULD be vitr, but I thought it was perhaps more likely to be pure Light.

[nacht]

Stalking Stonny, on 17 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I was gonna say, isn't that straight Kurald Thyrllan she is immersed in? Would it not have melted the temple floor like molten stone? Of course it COULD be vitr, but I thought it was perhaps more likely to be pure Light.

It was not clear to me either but maybe it was a temporary portal/rent into the thyr warren

[Abyss]

nacht, on 17 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Stalking Stonny, on 17 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I was gonna say, isn't that straight Kurald Thyrllan she is immersed in? Would it not have melted the temple floor like molten stone? Of course it COULD be vitr, but I thought it was perhaps more likely to be pure Light.

It was not clear to me either but maybe it was a temporary portal/rent into the thyr warren

It would be somewhat difficult to worship at a 'Temple of Light' if the place kersploded every time the aspect manifested.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Abyss, on 17 December 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

nacht, on 17 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Stalking Stonny, on 17 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I was gonna say, isn't that straight Kurald Thyrllan she is immersed in? Would it not have melted the temple floor like molten stone? Of course it COULD be vitr, but I thought it was perhaps more likely to be pure Light.

It was not clear to me either but maybe it was a temporary portal/rent into the thyr warren

It would be somewhat difficult to worship at a 'Temple of Light' if the place kersploded every time the aspect manifested.

Well, yes, but who is to say that actually standing in it is normal operational procedure. These ancient resurrected constructs always seem go kaboom when they get used again. I was thinking that perhaps the pure thyr light was so hot it melted the floor, like when anybody else touches that thyrllan light it burnsesss usssssss, like Cowl and Skinner in RotCG, and that's why it didnt affect Saeng, but she still was falling. Down. I realize I sound like a silly boy when I write it now and its probably just a portal or rent to KL/KT, but yeah. I'm just happy I finally finished the book. I thought it was ICE's best yet.

[HoosierDaddy]

Abyss, on 03 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Let's get the prefunctories out of the way....

SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS FOR ALL YES ALL MALAZAN BOOKS BY SE
AND BY ICE PUBLISHED BEFORE THIS ONE
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
GREAT BIG JUNGLE SPOILERS
WITH VINES
AND HUUUUGE TEETH AND CLAWS
AND SPOILERS AND MORE SPOILERS
AND JUST WHEN YOU THINK
YOU'VE SPOILERS IT ALL
EVEN MORE SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS

...and that should do it. Btw i'm going to spoil the end of TCG and large chunks of FoD so if you haven't figured it out yet

SPOILERS


Once upon a time i had the opportunity to meet Steven Erikson.
No, i'm not gloating... okay except for all the gloating... but gloating aside one of the things we discussed were Ian Cameron Esslemont's books, and in particular the then forthcoming BLOOD AND BONE.
SE mentioned that one of the things ICE was particularly enthused about was the jungle setting, something we don't see a lot of in fantasy. I put my brain to thinking about where i had in fact seen jungle settings in fantasy lit and didn't come up with a tonne... Barclay's second RAVEN trilogy was about it... maybe REDLINERS by David Drake but that's mil sf. My brainz say i'm forgetting something, but if it's not standing out than likely the setting wasn't all that important to the story anyways.

In BAB, the setting IS important to the story. Very important actually.
Yes, most of the storylines involve characters tromping through the jungle while their gear rots around then and insects and beasties try to eat them, but on a broader scale there's a sense of pace. No one in this book, among the jungle-located storylines (so not Jatal and co but we'll get to them) is going anywhere fast. They all get to where they're going, more or less, but it's a slow dirty painful crawl that cannot be hurried.

As an aside, i have to give ICE credit for writing a book that is essentially a travelogue, one of the things i dislike most in fantasy - characters slog tiredly from point A to point B - without ever leaving me bored, impatient or frustrated. In fact, it was a nice change of pace where the journey really was the destination and the destination was a nasty, beautiful place.

Ultimately this is a story set in a jungle, and about a jungle, and in the same way some people write 'the city is one of the characters' when discussing other books, the jungle is one of the characters too... literally at the end of the book, but figuratively for most of it.

The setting worked, and nicely so, and it infused the book without overdoing it.

City in the Jungle as a title would have been quite apropos. The creepy crawlies of the jungle, to me, added an air of fear to the story. An unknown setting with everything deadly and creepy crawlies EVERYWHERE, with the FINAL creepy crawly payoff for Skinner? Nice.

Quote

I also really enjoyed how the book ran parallel and overlapped with STONEWIELDER and THE CRIPPLED GOD. It gave a nice sense of timing to its part in both the ME and MBF series.

Agreed. Not quite sure how OST plays into it yet, is there a Scarza like character present there? Don't think that was thrown off haphazardly by ICE.

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As usual, i can't really put a number on where this book ranks in the series for me. I enjoyed it, i got my money's worth and more, and i'm looking forward to Assail next.

This teasing has now been officially played out. Too many games by ICE here for me. Over 3 actual books with its discussion, no progress?

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In terms of what happened....

SAENG/HANU/PON-LOR - I liked this storyline. Saeng could have been annoying but ICE kept her likeable with a nice combo of desperation, wilfulness and wonder. By the time she stepped into the Light thingy at the end, her actions were totally logical. Hanu's role as her protector was consistent and well set up. I was a little bummed that one of the bandits took him out, but he still killed a Circle thaumaturge and saved her one last time so i was satisfied. Pon-Lor came a long way and i enjoyed his narrative, particularly his evolution from Thaumaturge lackie to kicking their asses with his brain damage fu. This storyline also added some nice notes of wonder to the Himatan, notably Old Man Moon and the interactions with the semi-soletaken.
My one complaint is that it wasn't really clear 12 years had passed between Hanu being taken and his return until halfway through the book.

Good original character creation here with these three characters. Jak.... I felt no sympathy for Jak and I'm not sure if I was supposed to. For his minions, yes. But Jak came off as pure black with really poor motivation for his motivation.

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MURK/SOUR/MALAZANS - My favorite storyline of the book. I admit to a bit of disconnect as to exactly why they left Spite behind... sure, they knew if they stayed put after breaking the chaining someone was going to show up and kil them all for the shard, but even so they way they bailed on her and spent the rest of the book avoiding her wasn't entirely clear. it worked, i just wish someone had clearly said 'ok, Spite is going to eat us if she catches us.'. She WAS paying them after all. One thing ICE did beautifully was weave the history of 7C, Dujek's armies, Murk and Sour's time as cadre, Yusen and co's status and all the little Malazan army rituals throughout the story. 'Always an even exchange' ALWAYS gets a grin out of me.
Murk's dealings with Celeste were fun and a nice contract to the Lady we saw in SW. I especially liked how he just did the opposite of what his own father did.
And Sour was just awesome fun, bulging eyes and all.

I also really enjoyed this story line. What happened to the piece in Korel? What manipulated it to such a terrible purpose?

Their decision making was simple arithmetic: 1: Ships gone, 2: Oh fuck, we've got a shard of the Crippled God, bad things are coming. 3: Flee. Their lack of knowledge as to what they were freeing to me makes their reaction believable.

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GOLAN - Ultimately Golan's army was a feint to allow the Circle of Nine to make their way to the temple and try to bring the Jade Chunk down in Kallor. In essence this storyline amounted to an army being steadily whittled down by the jungle in as many horrific ways as possible. There were one or two neat moments, notably Golan taking out the lotus flowers, and the night when worms started pouring out of the wounded, but overall this was my least favorite storyline.

Meh storyline with the A+ creepiness factor. Himatan as a slow killing machine was brutally efficient and very well written. And creepy. Fucking bugs.

Negative: Chief Scribe Thorn and Golan was a nice attempt, and had its moments, but ICE can't quite pull off the sarcastic and loaded dialogue of SE. He's getting better though.

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QoD/INA - I would have liked to have known why Ina followed the QoD. There were hints, and they were interesting, and given that Seguleh don't tend to just blindly obey anyone, there was more going on there that i would have liked to have known. Ina also went rather abruptly from classic silent Seguleh to pov character, but never quite gave us enough to make her transition to Lek's guardian after the amutation work. I did, however, like how everyone was stressing about the logistics of amputating a Seguleh's sword-arm.
I liked the development of the QoD. There were hints of what SE wrote into her in FoD, but tempered after a few hundred thousand years or so. The way she underpowered herself was a nice touch, made clearer when we see her back to her Elder Goddess self at the end.
Also... (paraphrasing) 'The lesson of Kartool has not been forgotten.' was a great great shoutback to TB.

I liked the intro here a lot, but felt it was a little underplayed. One would think a God emerging from the water of your temple's sacred pool would be a big deal. I also really dug the surface submarine or whatever it is. I'm shite at picturing these things.

I also thought Lek was a piece of Kaminsod that Ardata was "raising"/controlling to increase her powers and that was what Celeste was binding with. Still want to believe that for some reason.

Really LOVED the gods coming to the boat to talk to her, but her calling Mael, Bugg, was irksome for some reason.

Quote

JATAL/KALLOR - I haven't quite made my mind up about this storyline yet. Kallor was entirely in character, and i liked the Agon/shadowun priests who followed him and seemed to be a legacy of his time back when he ruled Jacuruku. Jatal's evolution worked well enough, but i'm not sure i bought his relationship with Adanii enough to accept his ultimate demand of Kallor. he did provide a nice perspective for just how messed up Thaumaturge society was tho' during each raid.

Intricate for the fantastic revenge sections, but the manipulation of the Adwami was a bit too much. Too unrealistic.
I'm also never a big fan of the idiotic suicide as Jatal pulls. Stupid.
Loved Kallor until the very end. He's learned. Some. ICE doesn't pay that off from SE. I would much rather see him try to retake his empire, but then again, the Thaumaturg's had him picked out for mega-death pretty quickly.

Quote

SHIMMER/KAZZ - I liked Shimmer back in RCG and i was happy to get more of her POV here. At root this storyline was mostly setup for the next book, but the flashbacks and comments on the Guard were always interesting. They key revelation was the flashback to the Vow... i'm pretty sure that was Kilava standing by, which may mean the Vow took place on a site of the Imass Tellan Ritual.... which may mean the secret Kazz is holding onto so tightly is that the Guard are undead with zero hope for an afterlife.

I didn't think of Kilava, but that's a though. I didn't get a clear picture (surprise!) of who that character was but the fact that they need to go to Assail makes me think it's a little more mysterious. Perhaps K'ron or something fare different. I hate this mystery.

Quote

MARA/SKINNER - Good fun all around. Showed the Disavowed as tough and driven but not necessarily evil. Petal was a nice touch.

Skinner is humanized, Mara is made sympathetic, Petal is made normal. Avowed as normal soldiers are always great.
....
....
....
....

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BEST THROWDOWN - Considering how this book ended for Skinner, i liked that ICE gave him a couple of moments of awesome... notably the one-on-one with Rutana. It was obvious what was going to happen, and we even had Spite do the same thing earlier, albeit with a smaller worm and she had to go draconic to do it... but Skinner just had a borrowed sword and a whole lot of attitude when he jumped down her throat.

It was obvious, but it was glorious nonetheless. Rutana had it coming since the first line with the Avowed. Big doesn't mean bad, especially where humans are involved.

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BEST DEATH - Skinner. Wasn't expecting that. Given Shimmer's comment about the brethren tho', and Smoky's brief appearance to rescue her, we may not have seen the last of him.

He ain't dead. Him and Cowl pulled a trick of some sorts. Maybe. He abandoned Kaminsod, so it'd be great to see the comeuppance so brutally done.

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BEST OLD FRIEND - Cowl. COWL! ...and it even worked nicely. Hia appearance at K'azz and co's camp was suitably creepy and ominous.... i liked Shimmer's reaction to Cowl actually bowing to K'azz.

As others here predicted, K'azz is back. What commitment is so big that it belies the Azath? T'lan Ritual seems possible but too easy. Still, impressive prediction, folks.

Honourable mention to Oponn... i liked how ICE wrote their meeting with T'riss.

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BEST MYSTERY SOLVED - The T'riss / Ardata link has been hinted at going back to MoI and we've had all kinds of bits and pieces of it. It was nice to finally have that filled in most of the way.

Ardata being an Azathanai subject of Kallor, + High King mentions in FoD, means that Kallor is a big fucking badass and what happened there? So intrigued.

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BEST OTHER MYSTERY SOLVED - The multiple chainings were for multiple chunks of the CG. Hinted at in SW but now made clearer.

We knew this. No real mystery solved.

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HAIR TODAY GONE TOMORROW - i recally exactly one descrition of dirty lanky gross hair and it was Gothos. Kudos to ICE for not overusing this descriptor this time.

Re-read. They are rampant with Murk, Saeng, Pon-Lor, and others. ICE described much hair.

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THE SOMETIMES LESS IS MORE AWARD - Speaking of Gothos, The Osserc and Gothos scenes in the Azathcould have been a lot longer, a lot more philosophical and and lot more chatty. Thankfully they weren't. ICE gets my deepest appreciation for his restraint on these scenes. He made the point, gave us some interesting revelations about the Azath, Gothos and Osserc, and moved on. Sometimes less IS more.

It's clear Light/Fire is ICE's while Dark is SE's, but these didn't do much for me. I care little for Osserc. I feel little need to care for him from what ICE has provided. Perhaps this is his reason to do so, but up until here there is no comparison between Osserc and Rake.

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AZATHAWAITWHATII? - We never saw the term 'Azathanai' before Fod, now suddenly everyone is using it. It was a bit jarring and seemed out of context for a book taking place in the 'current' timeline.

You are just missing reading comprehension. It's been all over. Really. It has. I promise. Why are you frowning?

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BEST STABBY - Temper just walks up to the Deadhouse fence and sticks a sword through Cowl. HA!

Death by spider armor. Terrible for my mind, but awesomely portrayed. Die Skinner die.

[D'rek]

BEST NOT VERY IMPORTANT WAIT WHAT MOMENT (IMO) - Temper is involved with D'rek...?

[samuraiweasel]

D, on 30 December 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

BEST NOT VERY IMPORTANT WAIT WHAT MOMENT (IMO) - Temper is involved with D'rek...?

Yeah, remember when he was fighting the jaghut in night of knives, he got some sort of power rush from the earth I think it was. I'll have to reread that bit and check though.

[nacht]

samuraiweasel, on 31 December 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

D, on 30 December 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

BEST NOT VERY IMPORTANT WAIT WHAT MOMENT (IMO) - Temper is involved with D'rek...?

Yeah, remember when he was fighting the jaghut in night of knives, he got some sort of power rush from the earth I think it was. I'll have to reread that bit and check though.

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Temper reminded himself not to lower his guard. The game had changed to one perhaps even more perilous; he’d heard enough legends and tales of Jaghuts plying subtle arguments and poisoned gifts. Physically, he felt strong. Whatever power’s service he had entered into had found him a vessel sufficient to the task of standing before this being’s onslaught. Perhaps the Jaghut knew it too, and that was why he now found himself here. A change in strategy.

Maybe Burn..

[samuraiweasel]

Well, he accepted guardianship of the deadhouse when the other two guys got killed in NoK

This post has been edited by samuraiweasel: 01 January 2013 - 01:13 AM

[Aooga]

Overall decent novel but one key event pretty much ruined it for me. I was very, very disappointed with the death of Skinner.

[Seiko]

Aooga, on 01 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Overall decent novel but one key event pretty much ruined it for me. I was very, very disappointed with the death of Skinner.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. It was certainly an unexpected and gruesome way to go out.

But..no Seguleh Second confrontation? No epic Iron Bars showdown? Eh, maybe he isn't really dead, dead. I always got the feeling from the Second's fanatical hunt for him that Skinner 'cheating death' was more than just due to the avowed status. Plus Cowl was lurking around, even if he claimed he wasn't interested in going back to his partner in crime.. I really wouldn't be completely surprised to see him turn up in the next novel and not in Brethren form.

This post has been edited by Seiko: 01 January 2013 - 06:21 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

eh, death is never final in wuverse, the seguleh second is dead already hey? and the brethren are suddenly able to burn things on the mortal plane? we never find out how the t'lan imass discovered their ability to fall to dust. maybe it started when the ones they'd thought dead began reassembling before their eyes.

[worry]

I had a mostly positive experience with the book, and enjoyed all the storylines. The ending did have some anti-climax (namely T'riss/Ardata off screen confrontation), but not nearly the same low as OST's finale left me with.

Finally some mention of Jorrick! And a pretty good settling of the question (which I thought was pretty assured anyway) that only the various White Face Barghast were the ones who went to Lether, and there's still plenty left back on Genebackis.

I was hoping that the answer to "What is Himatan?" was it's a big spiderweb and Ardata is queen spider...along with requisite Elder God/blood/power dynamic for any non-children of Ardata that wandered in. That still might be the case, but nobody really suggested it outright as far as I recall, and Ardata turned out mostly to be a sad old mother lady with a time-warp jungle. Skinner's death at least connected to spiders well, even if it left out the Seg 2nd/Bars grudges mentioned above. But yah, the Brethren are getting weird anyway so there's still something there for Skinner/Cowl, I agree it's not over.

Old Man Moon being here perhaps explains the moon aspect of Ardata's healing Mappo.

I was hoping that there'd be some mention of Icarium in his wanderings, one of his mechanisms, anything like that, or recognition of his even newer Warrens (the mages all blacking out comes way too late to line up with DoD). But nope.

Likewise, I wanted some mention of Olar Ethil given we have two old Azathanai biddies here, one a crazy mom, plus we got all the Avowed/T'lan parallels.

Osserc, on the other hand, does seem to have gotten around in his youth. Ancient worship of him on Quon Tali, Jacuruku, and Bael? So much for his impression of himself as a humble, self-sacrificing wandering scholar.

The Thaumaturg experimentations were genuinely horrific, I appreciated ICE going there for real.

Will Assail integrate T'renn/Kiska/Leoman/Vitr, that other Liosan Army/Osserc/Father Light???/etc., The Avowed, Silverfox/T'lan, weird uber-powerful humans?, Kyle & the Brothers, a post-Kaminsod Stormriders, AND the rise to Ascendance of Iskaral Pust?

This post has been edited by worrywort: 01 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

[worry]

Also, add "cyclopean" and "atavistic" to ICE's list of go-to words.