[Hermetic Tantric]

First Post Ever:

I am convinced that Arathan is Dassem. The relationship hints about how strongly he already feels for his unborn child. His conversation with Hood. The fact he will be spending time with Haut (lots of hinting at his great martial prowess throughout the book). His tender and sensitive nature (Lord of Tragedy). There is also mention of his desire to TRAVEL and walk rhe world as an unknown (what convinced me before the meeting with Hood, find the quote and it will convince you too).

I felt sure that it would be obvious to people.

On another note, I would like to introduce myself as someone who takes these books somewhat seriously. If you know what my screen name means you will understand why. Basically, I am familiar with the actual history, theory, and practice of 100% of the "magic" that occurs in the series. I have read over 600 books on the subject and am well versed in both the Western (Hermetic) and Eastern (Tantric) sciences. I welcome any questions on the topic. It is also obvious that Erikson is a fellow walker of "the path" and I am very thankful for his most studious and faithful representation of its gifts and dangers.

[Puck]

Dassem is a mortal human man (well, not so mortal now that he's a god, of course). And he's not the God of Tragedy because of any tender and sensitive nature, but because od a misjudgement by Logros and his clan. He chose a fake identity and travels around because he wants to kick Hood in his bony butt not because the landscapes are sp pretty.

In short, of all the Arathan theories out there this is the one that's easiest to prove to not be the case.

[Hermetic Tantric]

If he is an Azathanai aspected as "The Lord of Tragedy," then no single event can make that so. It is something from within. And he will be able to walk in the guise of any race or entity he so chooses...

And if the son of Draconus is who gave the death blow to Anomander Rake with Draginpur. How fitting would that be?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I've read over 600 books of Harry Potter fan fiction. No big deal.

[Puck]

But he is no Azathanai. He is a (formerly) mortal human. And yes, a single event can make him the God of Tragedy if the power/belief behind that event is powerful enough. Like, say, an entire T'lan Imass clan deciding to bless and worship him. He is aspected to Tragedy because he didn't want any of it, which is the tragedy. Someone wanting to be aspected to it from within would not be a good fit for the position.

Just because a couple of characters we knew from the MBotF have turned out to be older than we thought does not mean all of them have to be.

Besides, if Dassem were an Azathanai (or halfblood) and around during the Malazan Empire time, I have serious doubt he'd be dumb enough to a. swear alligiance to Hood and b. assume the role of First Sword, which happens to be an Imass title with some significant power behind it. I also doubt the T'lan Imass would not have recognized an Elder being when they saw one. The theory just does not fit anywhere.

This post has been edited by Puck: 11 November 2012 - 11:34 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

he wasn't always the lord of tragedy though. at one time he was a mortal human general of the malazan empire. sure he's good with a sword, but so is brys, and he's like thirty. more, dassem ultor was sworn to hood. i can't see an azathanai ever swearing fealty to another, even if that other is a jaghut and a god. just look how big a deal it is when rake forces brood to give him his oath in FoD.

though i do like the idea that the son of draconus killed rake, it just doesn't feel right.

edit: and all the stuff puck said.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 11 November 2012 - 11:34 PM

[Hermetic Tantric]

There is a "hiding in plane sight" feeling I get from Dassem. Why would the sensitive swordsman type swear fealty to Hood in the first place? He doesn't seem very ambitious. I'm guessing something personal or circumstantial did it. It's mainly the personality similarities that Arathan and Dassem share that keep me wondering.

[Puck]

Hermetic Tantric, on 12 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

There is a "hiding in plane sight" feeling I get from Dassem.

Which is exactly what he is doing. He made everyone think he's dead an went on a vengeance campaign using a new name. So much for hiding in plain sight. Iirc he had even some readers fooled until TtH.

Hermetic Tantric, on 12 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Why would the sensitive swordsman type swear fealty to Hood in the first place?

Because Hood happens to be the most sensitive and reasonable god among the bunch. Swearing fealty to a god seems to have been quite common in the malazan army until cults got outlawed by Kellanved.

Hermetic Tantric, on 12 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

He doesn't seem very ambitious. I'm guessing something personal or circumstantial did it. It's mainly the personality similarities that Arathan and Dassem share that keep me wondering.

Mmh, dunno about the ambitious thing. He was ambitious enough to become the overall commander of the malazan armies and be one of the three people who founded the empire to begin with. Ambition's not a bad thing per se. Some in-book sources claim Kellanved & friends wanted to make a huge empire where everyone had the same rights and could live a safe life. Also, he was ambitious enough to claim the title of First Sword for himself and his immediate circle of associates.

And then, after the shit hits the fan, he goes and wants to kill Hood, which becomes his sole reason to go on. So much for ambition.

Edit: Look, it's not personal, but the theory came up a couple of times already and is just way too contrived to make sense. Some people seem to think that after FoD anything we know from the MBotF is up for dismantling, but I don't think this is the way to go about things. Besides, Dassem's story and origins have been resolved as much as they will probably ever get. The guy deserves a rest (until, maybe, the Toblakai trilogy, of course )

This post has been edited by Puck: 12 November 2012 - 12:37 AM

[Hermetic Tantric]

You may have a point. Wait a minute?? Isn't there a quote that has Dassem at the chaining of TCG and the fall of Kallor?? I swear there is...

[worry]

I think he's just there at the final chaining.

[Puck]

Yah, there have been multiple chainings, the last one somewhen during the last one hundred years pre story begin.

[sting01]

Hermetic Tantric, on 11 November 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

First Post Ever:

I am convinced that Arathan is Dassem. The relationship hints about how strongly he already feels for his unborn child. His conversation with Hood. The fact he will be spending time with Haut (lots of hinting at his great martial prowess throughout the book). His tender and sensitive nature (Lord of Tragedy). There is also mention of his desire to TRAVEL and walk rhe world as an unknown (what convinced me before the meeting with Hood, find the quote and it will convince you too).

I felt sure that it would be obvious to people.

On another note, I would like to introduce myself as someone who takes these books somewhat seriously. If you know what my screen name means you will understand why. Basically, I am familiar with the actual history, theory, and practice of 100% of the "magic" that occurs in the series. I have read over 600 books on the subject and am well versed in both the Western (Hermetic) and Eastern (Tantric) sciences. I welcome any questions on the topic. It is also obvious that Erikson is a fellow walker of "the path" and I am very thankful for his most studious and faithful representation of its gifts and dangers.

I was under the impression Dassem was the AVATAR of Dessembrae, but no Dessembrae himself.

It is similar to Bodiswatha to be A (one of many) Buddha, but Buddha is not necessary Bodiswatha (it have been many other avatar of him throught history).

[Orlion]

sting01, on 15 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Hermetic Tantric, on 11 November 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

First Post Ever:

I am convinced that Arathan is Dassem. The relationship hints about how strongly he already feels for his unborn child. His conversation with Hood. The fact he will be spending time with Haut (lots of hinting at his great martial prowess throughout the book). His tender and sensitive nature (Lord of Tragedy). There is also mention of his desire to TRAVEL and walk rhe world as an unknown (what convinced me before the meeting with Hood, find the quote and it will convince you too).

I felt sure that it would be obvious to people.

On another note, I would like to introduce myself as someone who takes these books somewhat seriously. If you know what my screen name means you will understand why. Basically, I am familiar with the actual history, theory, and practice of 100% of the "magic" that occurs in the series. I have read over 600 books on the subject and am well versed in both the Western (Hermetic) and Eastern (Tantric) sciences. I welcome any questions on the topic. It is also obvious that Erikson is a fellow walker of "the path" and I am very thankful for his most studious and faithful representation of its gifts and dangers.

I was under the impression Dassem was the AVATAR of Dessembrae, but no Dessembrae himself.

It is similar to Bodiswatha to be A (one of many) Buddha, but Buddha is not necessary Bodiswatha (it have been many other avatar of him throught history).

I like that explanation. Until proven otherwise, I will accept it as such.

Also, I doubt Arathan is the only 'sensitive' fellow to exist in the entirety of the Malazan history/universe. The only way this could be somewhat possible is if Arathan in the far future pulls a Urizen and throws out that Los part of him. Which seems silly. Though at the same time, I can see him as a Dessembrae figure with the Dassem part thrown into him by his worshippers.

[sting01]

Orlion, on 15 November 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

sting01, on 15 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Hermetic Tantric, on 11 November 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

First Post Ever:

I am convinced that Arathan is Dassem. The relationship hints about how strongly he already feels for his unborn child. His conversation with Hood. The fact he will be spending time with Haut (lots of hinting at his great martial prowess throughout the book). His tender and sensitive nature (Lord of Tragedy). There is also mention of his desire to TRAVEL and walk rhe world as an unknown (what convinced me before the meeting with Hood, find the quote and it will convince you too).

I felt sure that it would be obvious to people.

On another note, I would like to introduce myself as someone who takes these books somewhat seriously. If you know what my screen name means you will understand why. Basically, I am familiar with the actual history, theory, and practice of 100% of the "magic" that occurs in the series. I have read over 600 books on the subject and am well versed in both the Western (Hermetic) and Eastern (Tantric) sciences. I welcome any questions on the topic. It is also obvious that Erikson is a fellow walker of "the path" and I am very thankful for his most studious and faithful representation of its gifts and dangers.

I was under the impression Dassem was the AVATAR of Dessembrae, but no Dessembrae himself.

It is similar to Bodiswatha to be A (one of many) Buddha, but Buddha is not necessary Bodiswatha (it have been many other avatar of him throught history).

I like that explanation. Until proven otherwise, I will accept it as such.

Also, I doubt Arathan is the only 'sensitive' fellow to exist in the entirety of the Malazan history/universe. The only way this could be somewhat possible is if Arathan in the far future pulls a Urizen and throws out that Los part of him. Which seems silly. Though at the same time, I can see him as a Dessembrae figure with the Dassem part thrown into him by his worshippers.

Not really a theory, but based on the fact the Errant AND Shadowthrone did have business/conversation with Dessembrae on the same time Dassem was walking with Karsa. Unless him to be ubiqious (2 places at the same time, so spelling might be wrong) they are 2 different persons one being the avatar of the other. Samilar to the caravan captain guard who is the avatar of the God of War (the one killed while trying to block the dragons to enter, Rung or something similar).

[Capetown]

sting01, on 21 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Not really a theory, but based on the fact the Errant AND Shadowthrone did have business/conversation with Dessembrae on the same time Dassem was walking with Karsa. Unless him to be ubiqious (2 places at the same time, so spelling might be wrong) they are 2 different persons one being the avatar of the other. Samilar to the caravan captain guard who is the avatar of the God of War (the one killed while trying to block the dragons to enter, Rung or something similar).

Gruntle is not Treach's avatar, but his mortal sword. Though he has some weird thing going with the god riding him.

[Hermetic Tantric]

I'm sorry. But I've never thought of Dassem an avatar. His name is too close to the god Dassembrae and his way of behaving is as one burdened by his ascension. Similar to how Rake feels about his "godhood" and worshippers. I always felt the revelation of him as Dassembrae to be more of an "aha" moment. I mean really. What kind of a person goes after Hood? And expects to win??? He never swore fealty in my opinion. It was more of a natural allignment based on circumstances if you ask me. What circumstances?? We have yet to see and it is one of the great mysteries of the whole series along with the reason behind his daughters death. I like Dassembrae because he seems to be the only character who feels the full weight of all the killing he has to do. Similar to Arjuna in the Gita.

[worry]

I believe Dassem Ultor is half Dal Honese and half Talian or Kanese and agewise is somewhere between Kell and Dancer. He's certainly human. It's pretty much certain that he was sworn to Hood (and Dassem shows a particular antipathy to the Crimson Guard for obvious Hood-related reasons) and that some time directly before or in the midst of the Seven Cities campaign (and certainly before Y'Ghatan, which was going to be his last battle regardless of the injury he got there) Hood used up his daughter at the last Chaining. The order of his Ascendance/godhood/Lord of Tragedy stuff isn't necessarily spelled out, but I would say that for most of his career he was superhuman from his experience in the Deadhouse with the Old Guard AND from having a Patron in Hood. He ascended sometime during his time as First Sword of the Empire, perhaps even becoming a god on his way to some role in High House War or Death, but the death of his daughter and his falling out with Hood basically cemented him as Lord of Tragedy. It's not a secret that he had a daughter or that she died, so there's shaping from worshipers that Dassem resists as much as possible because he's dead set on Hood.

All that is to say, he's not a bajillion year old Azathanai in my opinion.

[Puck]

What worrywort said, and I want to add this:

Dassem became a god by being sanctified by the T'lan Imass at first, who decided he was so awesome he deserved to be officially made the First Sword, which was an Imass title to begin with. He first echoed it in taking the title of First Sword of the Empire, but it was not the same as being an Imass First Sword, just an echo of that old title. Logros decided he deserved the full title and wanted to take that from Tool and give it to Dassem instead, but Tool wouldn't have any of it because he thought a mortal could not possibly bear the true weight of it, whatever that might be. But the deed had been done already and Dassem had been blessed by the T'lan Imass without himself knowing or wanting it. That is the part where Hood comes in, who was pissed (or so Tool assumes) about the Imass evading death for so long and being out of his reach. Logros's blessing of Dassem gave Hood a way to reach through to them, but not truly, so Dassem ended up being the butthead of Hood's 'revenge' against the T'lan Imass. He may also have been pissed about his favourite subject becoming a god in his own right, but that's pure speculation on my part.

So, to sum it up: by blessing him Logros instead cursed Dassem. Speak about tragedy. Dassem and his daughter were 'Hood's knives, striking at' the T'lan Imass. The reason the Logros T'lan Imass left the Malazan Empire was not Kellanved's death but the follout with Dassem or whatever it was in particular that happened at Y'Ghatan. I'm not going to interpret the scene even more, but if you don't believe, go read tCG, where it's spelled out as as much as it will ever get.

Honestly, there are so many layers to this that it's difficult to sum it all up or truly put all that played into this particular tragedy (ha!) into words, but one thing one can't claim, and that's that we are never given enough hints to piece it all together.

And for those too lazy to look it up, here we go, the full page(s) long quote, from Tool's PoV:

Spoiler

[…] And Onos T'oolan knew he would soon return to the side of Dassem Ultor, his mortal shadow who had taken for himself – and for his closest followers – the title of First Sword. Prophetic inspiration, for they would soon all be dead – as dead as Onos T'oolan, as dead as the T'lan Imass. Or if not dead, then… destroyed.
Instead, Logros had lifted one hand, a splay of gnarled fingers all pointing at Onos. 'You were once our First Sword,' he said. 'When we return to the mortal empire, we shall avow service to Dassem Ultor, for he is your heir to the title. You shall surrender the name of First Sword.'
Onos T'oolan considered that for a time. Surrender the title? Cut through the bindings? Sever the knots? Know freedom once more? 'He is mortal, Logros. He does not know what he has done in taking for himself the title of First Sword.'
'In service,' Logros replied, 'the T'lan Imass sanctify him —'
'You would make of him a god?'
'We are warriors. Our blessing shall —'
'Damn him for eternity!'
'Onos T'oolan, you are of no use to us.'
'Do you imagine' – and he recalled the timbre of his voice, the seething outrage, and the horror of what Logros sought to do… to a mortal man, to a man destined to face his own death, and that is something we have never done, no, we ever ran from that moment of reckoning – Logros, the Lord of Death shall strike at the T'lan Imass, through him. Hood shall make him pay. For our crime, for our defiance – 'Do you imagine,' he'd said, 'that your blessing could be anything but a curse? You would make him a god of sorrow, and failure, a god with a face doomed to weep, to twist in anguish —'
'Onos T'oolan, we cast you out.'
'I shall speak to Dassem Ultor —'
'You do not understand. It is too late.'
Too late.
The Adjunct Lorn had believed that it was the murder of the Emperor that had broken the human empire's alliance with Logros T'lan Imass. She had been wrong. The spilled blood you should have heeded was Dassem Ultor's, not Kellanved's. And for all that neither man truly died, but only one bore the deadly kiss of Hood in all the days that followed. Only one stood before Hood himself, and learned of the terrible thing Logros had done to him.
They said Hood was his patron god. They said he had avowed service to the Lord of Death. They said that Hood then betrayed him. They understood nothing. Dassem and his daughter, they were Hood's knives, striking at us. What is it, to be the weapon of a god?
Where are you now, Logros? Do you feel me, so fiercely reborn? My heir – your chosen child – has rejected the role. His footfalls now mark the passing of tragedy. You have made him the God of Tears, and now that Hood is gone he must hunt down the next one who made him what he was. Do you tremble, Logros? Dassem is coming for you. He is coming for you.
[p. 239 of the HC]

Reading the text before interpreting stuff does help occasionally. And I'm saying that in general and not aimed at anyone in particular, as I've been in a couple of severe arguments about that kind of thing on here recently.

This post has been edited by Puck: 25 November 2012 - 12:23 AM

[worry]

The severer the argument, the better it is for us in the audience.

[Puck]

I aim to entertain.

..and annoy whoever it is I'm arguing with, because I DO know it better