[Abyss]

Trull, on 26 May 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

sorrysort, on 25 May 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Caladan Brood is in no way a servant, even in GotM.

He isn't a servant in so far as he does everything that anomander wants without question. He does serve Anomander nonetheless, taking control of part of his army and working towards Anomander's military goals at that point (unless I'm mistaken; I don;t recall Brood having alternate goals at that point, aside from helping a bud). He serves, but is not subservient.

Two points on this...

1) Brood and Rake were allies. Neither one of them commanded the other, and, in Brood's one and only 'on screen' moment in GotM, Brod actually sends the Crimson Guard to prevent Rake from acquiring Oponn's Coin, knowing full well that will put the Guard in opposition to the Andii, which happens more than once.

2) There's a massive difference between 'serve' in the military sense of taking commands from someone else, and serve as in servant. I'm fairly sure the original point was raising the former, not the latter, and hence my response that dragons willingly allied themselves with the Jaghut in the War on Death. We don't know whether they took commands, but there they were.

The question then follows... does a Knight of Death willingly 'just' take commands from Hood, or serve him?
And the answer is 'it depends', because while the Baudin seems to clearly serve, the Second seems to push the bounds, and Dassem bailed on Hood entirely.
Karsa is another example... invested as Knight and Champion, he still did what he wanted and at one point even 'kills' one of the Rockfaces who aspected him.
Another good example is Featherwitch, who essentially forces the Errant to aspect her, and is killed by him in turn. Who exactly served the other, if at all, is anything but clear.

Hence, if Arathan is Dassem, and i stand by my point that he isn't, it's entirely open to him deciding to serve as hood's Knight for his own reasons, and then change his mind.

[Trull's son]

You are right Abyss. There's also Gruntle to add to that list, in that he really never acts as Trake's mortal sword (until tCG that is).

[tiam]

Trull, on 26 May 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Clearly my mistake was implying that Brood was serving Anomander, instead of saying Brood's interests aligned with those of Anomander insofar as he then took military action in order to progress a cause who's figure head happened to be Anomander Rake.

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 26 May 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

How is it solely anomanders goal to resist the Empire? If anything Brood seems to be the one doing most of the resisting and Rake only lent him his troops. If the Andii werent there would Brood still combat the Empire? We see in MOI that Rake would actually welcome the Empire for its stability and its firm but fair law system so how do we know Brood isnt the main opponent of Malaz?

This is a good point. Might be it is Brood leading this resistance. It has been a while since I've read GotM, but I'm fairly certain Rake was considered the resistance leader. Then again, it was Brood that fought the moranth. It is perhaps similar to how a Fist may act under directions from a High Fist? These directions may allow for the Fist to have a relatively independent position in achieving a goal, but the goal is still serving the higher purpose, ultimately directed by the High Fist.

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I dont think its a semantic issue.

I think it has become one. I googled the definition for serve quick:

"Verb
Perform duties or services for (another person or an organization)."

You point out that approaching a common goal is not inherently servitude. I agree, so long as the participants are on equal footing and have equal say in the matter. Working towards the goal serves personal interests, and so they would not be performing duties for another. But, in a militaristic situation there will be a chain of command. If a command falls from on high, then that command will be followed. Brood may even agree with the command, as it will serve his personal interest. So technically, the outside observer will see Brood perform duties for Anomander and his cause. Internally, Brood is serving his own interests. What's important here is that Brood is serving Anomander, and himself. Why a few of you resist this idea seems to indicate that "servant" is associated with a negative connotation (that of subservience). Though I don't normally associate the word with this negativity, and technically it shouldn't be(if definitions were static and unchanging, which is not the case), I see that generally the idea of a servant to a person or cause implies that they are controlled in some way by that person or cause. Brood is certainly not controlled by external forces in GotM (if any actually could).

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Serving anothers purpose does not make you a servant.

Actually, it technically does.
servant definition:
"Noun: A person who performs duties for others"

That said, what I've gathered from this discussion is that serving your own purpose does not make you a servant. Serving another's interest by your own will does not make you a servant. I don't agree with this, but it seems to be how we associate servitude to a person without getting mixed up with all that "being a servant to someone/something" issue. This whole discussion is ridiculous.

Your having an english debate with yourself here mate. Im not arsed what the dictionary definition is so you can dance round the fact that Brood is not servant to Rake.

In terms of the book though Rake had fought malaz before and backed down. We dont know where or any of the circumstances but he later appeared on Genabackis. It could be for this reason the focus appears to be on Rake, who is really one man floating above a middling sized city while Brood is in the north leading a full blown war against Malaz and doing pretty well with it to, going from the impression we get from GOTM. You state that Brood performs duties for Anomander which ally with his own interests but in military situations there has to be a chain of command. Whose to say Brood isnt in charge? He leads the war, as head of their allaince he takes Rakes troops and Rake agrees to use Moonspawn in defence of the free cities allaince while Brood, as we see from Dujek and Lorns conversation, will liberate a whole host of cities during the next campaigning season. We know enough about there relationship from MOI that it is a partnership in truth and that ity is Rake who visits Broods camp not Brood who comes to Rake.

The comparison you draw of Fist to High Fist is not relevant in anyway.

As for Dassem being Arathan I dont see it personally. Dassem fights Rake in TTH he says 'you have never been my enemy Rake even when I was under the empire' which rake acknowledges with a nod 'like it was a surprising gift' or some such the quote was. From that surely Dassem would have mentioned the death of his father and the subsequent Tiste wars? I think Dassem is a new ascendent.

J

[Trull's son]

Yeah Tiam, that post was semi-sarcastic, meant to acknowledge the fact that the way I was using the word did not line up with the way it should be used. Abyss sums up why I was wrong in the previous post.

[tiam]

How about addressing the subject then instead of posting 'witty sarcastic' posts that derail the thread.

Regarding Dassem being Arathan would Dancer have truly trusted an ancient Azathanai? Were told that he only ever trusted Kel and Dassem so would he have done so if he knew Dassem was an Azathanai. Dassem in OST doesnt seem to be an azathanai either. Im sure it will be addressed.

[Trull's son]

Yeah, you're right, I should not have derailed, unintentionally or otherwise.

There isn't much evidence supporting the Dassem-Arathan connection. I can't recall Dassem ever changing appearance, or using elder magic of any sort. We know he was only around for the last Chaining (only one that we know of). Just seems far-fetched at this point.

I'm kind of hoping Arathan is his own character.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Haven't been here in awhile and I'm reading through some threads to catch up.

Theres One thing that I was shocked nobody brought up while talking about the hate between Hood and the T'lan Imass, and why it would be a problem for Dassem to be connected in any way between the two.

Hood is a fucking Jaghut. And one that has felt personal loss quite deeply on occasion. In addition to avoiding becoming subjects of Hood's realm through the ritual, the T'lan Imass are responsible for the xenocide of Hood's race.

Just another layer to throw on the subject, proving how this story is as complex as actual history.