[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Adding another thought...Is THIS the "story of the Skywalker family"... only bring misery and evil to the galaxy no matter what anyone does... GREAT way to end the Skywalker story.
...

Hadn't really thought about it but yeah, that would be an ugly shift.

Salt-Man Z, on 18 December 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Adding another thought...Is THIS the "story of the Skywalker family"... only bring misery and evil to the galaxy no matter what anyone does... GREAT way to end the Skywalker story.

Hadn't really thought about it but yeah, that would be an ugly shift.

Yeah, that occurred to me too last night: Anakin plunges the galaxy into darkness, which is restored by Luke/Leia, then undone by Ben. They're all dead and now the entire (brief) Skywalker line becomes a footnote in galactic history.

I'm fairly sure that in the effort to spin the whole "Anyone can be a Jedi! You don't have to be form a special family!" thread in this film....that they've intentionally painted themselves into a weird corner.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 December 2017 - 06:21 PM

[Abyss]

Episode IX: Fucking Skywalkers

[rant]

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Episode IX: Fucking Skywalkers

One of the more recent EU series of books prior to Disney's acquisition kind of did this. People in universe were like...hold on, we've had like 3 galactic scale wars in the past 60 years due to what amounts to minor doctrinal differences within a belief system. They didn't go full religious persecution, but they almost got there....the Skywalkers were the basic underlying example of the problem.

TBH I'd read a book where Jedi and Sith just yell at each other about which side of the force is better......Hell, Traitor kind of was that book.

[polishgenius]

I've been thinking on it, and I've kinda come to the conclusion that this was a very Shane Black Star Wars movie. I'm not saying it's the same people though I'm sure there's overlap, but a lot of the things I think people didn't like about this are similar to what people didn't like about Iron Man 3, which is that it just refused to play by the expected rules of this kind of story and this franchise.

I enjoy that sort of thing, so I liked it.

[Chance]

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

I'm fairly sure that in the effort to spin the whole "Anyone can be a Jedi! You don't have to be form a special family!" thread in this film....that they've intentionally painted themselves into a weird corner.

I agree so much. Now they have to establish an entirely new cast and really so far they have only established Ray and possibly Ren as decent characters with a coterie of cardboard cutouts and comic relief surrounding them. I wouldn't like being in charge of the next movie after this it basically not make a third movie in a trilogy but instead lets make the first movie of a new universe.

Of course that could make the next movie great not much baggage to carry around but it also means a break from decades of built up emotional investment.

This post has been edited by Chance: 18 December 2017 - 10:16 PM

[Silencer]

QuickTidal, on 18 December 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

I get the sense that part of the difficulty some people are having is from this curious canonization of Luke that took place over the centuries since RETURN OF THE JEDI.
It's particularly odd for EU fans since Luke was very fallible in the EU stuff, beyond the complete fail that was Jacen. He lost a bunch of students, couldn't do much against the Vong invasion, for like 20 books, etc etc. I get on some level that 'everyone' wanted a badass Luke to just waltz in and kick ass, but we didn't get that with Han, barely had a hint of it from Leia, why expect more from Luke. And i say this as someone deeply disappointed that Chewie has not pulled off anyone's arm and beaten them to death with it yet in the new films.

I just can't see how any of it is organic to Luke....all I see are the OTHER plot points that Rian wanted to hit, and he served those instead and anything else fell by the wayside for Edgy "Subvert All The Things!" crap...and adding in there fact that he wanted to shuffle away the OT and basically reboot the Star Wars universe at Zero...I mean shit, he even puts it in the script with Kylo's words about "killing the past", which I guess makes Rian's stand-in Kylo Ren...which I admit makes sense. AKA Petulant, insipid dark fanboy who decided to do his own thing at the detriment to all around him.

I just fail to see how any of this is interesting going forward. The stakes are actually lesser than they were at this point in the last trilogy. There is no New Republic (because apparently they were entirely in one System, Navy and all), the First Order is now a chunked Empire clone with none of the Imperial governmental oversight to keep ANYONE under their sway, led by two squabbling teenage brothers, and the Rebellion is one Jedi and about 19 Rebel soldiers, with no ships except the Millennium Falcon and no support (the Outer Rim people that supposedly sided with them are intentionally absent). I'm not sure what Star WARS you can have with those factors all that's in play, but okay.

And Chewie nearly ate a roasted Porg...that was cool.

I'm happy others found stuff to like or even love in this movie...but it's ATOC level for me at this point.

I like it as a film if I ignore it's Star Wars. After a few days of careful thought, I really dislike it as a Star Wars film, and feel Rian Johnson fundamentally misunderstands what the franchise is about.

To be completely honest, I think you overestimate or misinterpreted what "JJ was setting up" in TFA. Nearly every beat from this movie sans one or two were kind of what I expected/wanted moving on from TFA, in terms of overarching plot. I agree with your paragraph about the stakes being lesser now, but I don't think they were that high in TFA - at least not once the nu Death Star was destroyed. How is their situation now actually that much diminished? And they're mutually diminished. Both sides.

And as someone who never invested heavily in the EU, this Luke was excellent. And also exactly where I expected him to be at based on the brief scene at the end of TFA. It sucks that Hamill doesn't like the portrayal, but this made for a much better story than the Gary Stu Super Luke people who didn't like this one seemed to want? (And also kinda got at the end...)

Salt-Man Z, on 18 December 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

Re:Luke, other thoughts:

Spoiler

As (still) a huge EU fanboy, I had no problem with this take on Luke. I didn't see him going to take out Ben, I took it as that he sensed the darkness that night, followed it to its source (Ben's room) and after some deliberation, in a split-second of weakness ignited his lightsaber (this is the same guy who, despite all his "I will not fight you" in RotJ, still lashed out at Vader/Palpatine a couple of times). I think as soon as saber was lit, he recognized his mistake, but the damage was done.

Luke flippantly tossing his saber over his shoulder only surprised me because I was honestly expecting him to turn around and just chuck it into the sea.

I'm a little torn on the movie itself, but I liked it more than not. It certainly didn't ignite the same sensawunda that TFA did, for sure. But Rey's parentage (if true) is perfect as-is, and every interaction between her and Kylo was basically the highlight of the film. (Like worry says, Adam Driver stole the show.) Taking Snoke out so quickly was a nice shock, and a great move to mix up the formula in a movie that was almost more of a rehash than TFA. I was rooting for the Kylo/Rey teamup to happen, whether for good, evil, or something in-between, but was very disappointed that they chickened out on that front. So now going into Ep IV there's no urgency, no pressing questions to be resolved beyond how do they take down Kylo? (And, I guess, how do they write out Leia?)

I also found it odd that it was Ghost!Yoda who appeared to Luke, since it was only ever Ghost!Obi-Wan before (barring the end of RotJ.)

And basically everything in this post, I agree with 100%. XD

[Abyss]

This is priceless.... https://io9.gizmodo....t-je-1821394256

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Abyss, on 19 December 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

This is priceless.... https://io9.gizmodo....t-je-1821394256

I particularly enjoy "make him apologise for his move that has made $220million in a week!"

It's interesting reading how many different opinions are in here.

Spoiler

Personally - and I'm not familiar with the EU much, beyond awareness of the odd snippet - I like this Luke. "Badass with a green lightsabre" wouldn't have been doing anything new, and I appreciate that Johnson has tried to do that. Whether it's the right move for everyone isn't really the question (Lucas tried to do "something different" with the prequels and I think the majority of people wish he hadn't) - but for me there's only so long you can keep opening a mystery box (to borrow someone's excellent phrase from above) and find a Skywalker inside.

I think "anyone can be a Jedi" fits with what Luke himself said about the idea that without the Jedi the light side dies being the height of vanity. Also, within that prequel trilogy that I mostly like to pretend never existed, we saw plenty of Jedi who weren't Skywalkers be it on the Council, Qi-gon, Obi Wan himself... so I wouldn't say it's an entirely new idea that "anyone" could be a Jedi, we've just never had parameters set before (or indeed, blown to smithereeens as in this instance).

I forget who said it, but I think "turned his nephew to the dark side" is a bit of an oversimplification and stretch. The dialogue leading up to that scene took great pains to make it clear the dark side had already taken hold, to me that was just showing why he finally turned on Luke personally and destroyed the school. Fairly sure Luke said explicitly "Snoke had already turned him".

I like Rey's parentage as is, and I will be annoyed if it's ret-conned.

Snoke being nobody and going unestablished did feel off, granted, but to me it seemed logical for the Rey-Kylo conflict for Kylo to step up in some way or another. Wasn't expecting it to be that abrupt, mind.

[Morgoth]

I saw it yesterday. Liked several of the individual scenes and twists, but don't think I actually liked the movie. I'll have to chew on it some more I think.

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 19 December 2017 - 05:32 AM, said:

I think "anyone can be a Jedi" fits with what Luke himself said about the idea that without the Jedi the light side dies being the height of vanity. Also, within that prequel trilogy that I mostly like to pretend never existed, we saw plenty of Jedi who weren't Skywalkers be it on the Council, Qi-gon, Obi Wan himself... so I wouldn't say it's an entirely new idea that "anyone" could be a Jedi, we've just never had parameters set before (or indeed, blown to smithereeens as in this instance).

^^This is key. Unless Rian Johnson is entirely ignoring the fact that the prequels, (and other game periphery materials like KOTOR) exist...in canon...then the idea that he's "dispelling" the myth that only Skywalkers can be powerful, chosen on-type, force users in his movie is a load of utter hogwash. The Skywalker line produced some great force users, but acting like people like Darth Revan, or Mace Windu, Or Kenobi, or Ahsoka, or Asajj Ventriss, or even Yoda himself are somehow not applicable to his goal of "the force is for everyone!" is madness at best, and wrong at worst.

Was it cool that kid and his scrappy stable buddies are force users and will be the "future"? Sure. Was it fine that Rey is no one and a super strong force user? Sure. But the whole movie hinges around the fact that Skywalkers aren't the only powerful force users and FINALLY some new blood will enter the fray. As if that's not also happened of THOUSANDS of years. It's tunnels vision on Rian's part about what he's "saying".

[QuickTidal]

Put it the way. A LOT of what the defences are for THE LAST JEDI being this brilliant piece of cinema...are the exact same things (and in a lot of cases the same people spouting them) that everyone SO derided about a film like BATMAN V SUPERMAN. I've now read about 4 online articles by people who LOATHED BvS explaining why THE LAST JEDI is brilliant...by noting the exact same shit they found as problematic in the Snyder film.

And I'm (of course) on the other side of the fight again. The minority side.

Sigh.

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 19 December 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 19 December 2017 - 05:32 AM, said:

I think "anyone can be a Jedi" fits with what Luke himself said about the idea that without the Jedi the light side dies being the height of vanity. Also, within that prequel trilogy that I mostly like to pretend never existed, we saw plenty of Jedi who weren't Skywalkers be it on the Council, Qi-gon, Obi Wan himself... so I wouldn't say it's an entirely new idea that "anyone" could be a Jedi, we've just never had parameters set before (or indeed, blown to smithereeens as in this instance).

^^This is key. Unless Rian Johnson is entirely ignoring the fact that the prequels, (and other game periphery materials like KOTOR) exist...in canon...then the idea that he's "dispelling" the myth that only Skywalkers can be powerful, chosen on-type, force users in his movie is a load of utter hogwash. The Skywalker line produced some great force users, but acting like people like Darth Revan, or Mace Windu, Or Kenobi, or Ahsoka, or Asajj Ventriss, or even Yoda himself are somehow not applicable to his goal of "the force is for everyone!" is madness at best, and wrong at worst.

Was it cool that kid and his scrappy stable buddies are force users and will be the "future"? Sure. Was it fine that Rey is no one and a super strong force user? Sure. But the whole movie hinges around the fact that Skywalkers aren't the only powerful force users and FINALLY some new blood will enter the fray. As if that's not also happened of THOUSANDS of years. It's tunnels vision on Rian's part about what he's "saying".

Did Rian Johnson (or someone in this thread I guess) explicitly state that the goal of the movie was to say that "the force is for everyone"? I haven't seen that anywhere....but if it did happen, just ignore the rest of this post lol, and note that I stand corrected!

I didn't find the movie hinged on the fact that the Skywalkers aren't the only powerful force users.......I think the Skywalkers were almost forgotten in this film (which I'm okay with)

For me, Rians's rejection of JJ's Rey mystery box wasn't about being egalitarian with the force (as you point out, the force is pretty egalitarian already), but focusing on a story he wanted to write. He didn't think Rey's parentage needed to matter....so he wrote a story where Rey's parentage didn't matter (JJ could retcon all of this of course).

Further, I think that connecting Rey to OT (as that is what everyone wanted) characters in a meaningful way was next to impossible, and attempting it would have resulted in contrived and shoe-horned writing. You're upset about Luke's characterization in this film? How would you have felt if on top of what happened (or in lieu of) he had abandoned his infant daughter for some (contrived) reason? Or the most powerful existing force user who can connect with his sister across the galaxy somehow can't sense his daughter?

Here's some other scenarios:
Obi-wan or qui-gon or vader had a daughter, who was then frozen for 40-60 years so she could be Luke's new apprentice
Obi-wan, or luke, or leia, vade etc. were cloned....and then that clone was then abandoned on Jakku for.....some (contrived) reason?
Leia and Han had twins (jacen and jaina! )...but Rey was kidnapped for some reason. Or explaining why the Falcon was on Jakku: it was stolen, and Rey happened to be on board....this would explain why she already knew how to pilot it. But then why didn't Han recognize his daugther? For some (contrived) reason I'm assuming?
Palpatine had a secret daughter RIGHT before he was killed....and she was abandoned on Jakku....for some (contrived) reason?
Rey is Mon Mothma's daughter...who was frozen for 20 years, got force powers, and abandoned on Jakku.....for some (contrived) reason?
Rey is Snoke's daughter or something, and abandoned on Jakku.....for some (contrived) reason?

So I extended from the OT to the prequels, and were still running out of main characters that film only fans would recognize.
I mean, I'm sure creative types could find someway to make this happen in a non-contrived way.....but maybe they don't want to and want to write their own (disney approved) stories. Star Wars has already seen the surprise parentage twist.....let's get on to something new!

Sure, if TFA had been a different move, we could have had more of the generational focus on Skywalkers....but it wasn't so Rian Johnson made the best movie he could.

I dunno, I guess I just don't understand why Rey's parentage HAS to matter (beyond JJ's mystery box)? We saw in the prequels that the force 'created' Anakin. So I guess the 'father' had direct plot implications, but Shmi was 'just' a slave. Why can't Reys parents just be nobodies?

Again, if Rian somewhere said that this was his goal....then just ignore lol.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 19 December 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Put it the way. A LOT of what the defences are for THE LAST JEDI being this brilliant piece of cinema...are the exact same things (and in a lot of cases the same people spouting them) that everyone SO derided about a film like BATMAN V SUPERMAN. I've now read about 4 online articles by people who LOATHED BvS explaining why THE LAST JEDI is brilliant...by noting the exact same shit they found as problematic in the Snyder film.

And I'm (of course) on the other side of the fight again. The minority side.

Sigh.

Give it up.

Come to the Dark Side.

We care less about silly sf movies that were significant for about six months back in the seventies, have more fun, and have cookies. When we get bored, we make fun of Star Trek too.

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 19 December 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Put it the way. A LOT of what the defences are for THE LAST JEDI being this brilliant piece of cinema...are the exact same things (and in a lot of cases the same people spouting them) that everyone SO derided about a film like BATMAN V SUPERMAN. I've now read about 4 online articles by people who LOATHED BvS explaining why THE LAST JEDI is brilliant...by noting the exact same shit they found as problematic in the Snyder film.

And I'm (of course) on the other side of the fight again. The minority side.

Sigh.

I don't think you need to play the martyr lol.....if Rotten tomatoes score is even slightly accurate a large percentage of the population agrees with you. For the record, generally take my posts and statements as descriptive rather than prescriptive. I'm explaining why I enjoyed the film, not dictating why other people should have liked it. I don't care one whit whether a film is objectively 'good' (I'm no film/culture critic), just whether or not I subjectively enjoyed it.

That said I'm happy to genially debate Star Wars 24/7.

[Cause]

Abyss, on 18 December 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

I get the sense that part of the difficulty some people are having is from this curious canonization of Luke that took place over the centuries since RETURN OF THE JEDI.
It's particularly odd for EU fans since Luke was very fallible in the EU stuff, beyond the complete fail that was Jacen. He lost a bunch of students, couldn't do much against the Vong invasion, for like 20 books, etc etc. I get on some level that 'everyone' wanted a badass Luke to just waltz in and kick ass, but we didn't get that with Han, barely had a hint of it from Leia, why expect more from Luke. And i say this as someone deeply disappointed that Chewie has not pulled off anyone's arm and beaten them to death with it yet in the new films.

Except bad ass Jedi are central to the plot. Without them we just have a few hundred rebels (now 15) taking on the strongest military in the galaxy! A sci fi war story is not what star wars does well, though it does this in parts. The opening of the last Jedi starts with a ridiculous premise that a dreadnaught which does not have shields (but a rebel light cruiser does?) is attacked by bombers, honest to god bombers in a world of ftl and AI and missiles. That the first order did not have their carriers, because this is what their ships are deploy a screen of fighters the moment they exited space. The entire rebel space chase was a text book example of a military that is beyond incompetent only because the plot requires them to be. Have one ship do a FTl jump just infront of the rebel cruisers for example. Or explain to me again why they needed to pull back the fighters because they cant track them at that distance? They treat their soldiers like expendable fodder, who cares if you can track them.

No what star wars is about is following a special group of charatcers, jedis, rogues etc who have the devils luck and pull of the impossible with charm and fun. As a war story its painful.

[blackzoid]

QuickTidal, on 19 December 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Put it the way. A LOT of what the defences are for THE LAST JEDI being this brilliant piece of cinema...are the exact same things (and in a lot of cases the same people spouting them) that everyone SO derided about a film like BATMAN V SUPERMAN. I've now read about 4 online articles by people who LOATHED BvS explaining why THE LAST JEDI is brilliant...by noting the exact same shit they found as problematic in the Snyder film.

And I'm (of course) on the other side of the fight again. The minority side.

Sigh.

Thats a very interesting point. Is it fair to compare and contrast this films treatment of Luke and Man of Steel's treatment of Superman? Synder changed Superman from his classic characterisation and got the riot act as a result (with people still bitching about it years later), and yet I'm reading many articles where those self-same "Superman would never do that!!!!" critics seemingly are fine with Luke's characterisation. All in the name of "inverting expectations".

Also, I would be really annoyed if Thanos's arc in Infinity War happened in the same manner as Snokes in this film. Really really annoyed.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 19 December 2017 - 03:18 PM

[QuickTidal]

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Did Rian Johnson (or someone in this thread I guess) explicitly state that the goal of the movie was to say that "the force is for everyone"? I haven't seen that anywhere....but if it did happen, just ignore the rest of this post lol, and note that I stand corrected!

Most of the people arguing that this movie is amazing indicate that was what Rian was doing...I'm not sure he's ever said it himself but that certainly seems to be the takeaway of assassinating the Skywalker legacy AND giving us an inexplicably placed scene with young urchins who are force sensitive as Rose pontificates a diatribe about the "lesser" beings of the galaxy always getting screwed over.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I didn't find the movie hinged on the fact that the Skywalkers aren't the only powerful force users.......I think the Skywalkers were almost forgotten in this film (which I'm okay with)

It's just how I saw what Rian was saying, I happily concede it might not be everyone's personally takeaway.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

For me, Rians's rejection of JJ's Rey mystery box wasn't about being egalitarian with the force (as you point out, the force is pretty egalitarian already), but focusing on a story he wanted to write. He didn't think Rey's parentage needed to matter....so he wrote a story where Rey's parentage didn't matter (JJ could retcon all of this of course).

How this isn't a middle-finger to JJ setting it up is beyond me. It's like JJ threw the pitch to Rian over the plate...and Rian decided to walk 6 feet to the right and putt a golf ball into the dugout with his foot instead of hitting the baseball.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Further, I think that connecting Rey to OT (as that is what everyone wanted) characters in a meaningful way was next to impossible and attempting it would have resulted in contrived and shoe-horned writing.

This is not necessarily true. The Story Group has done so easily in more than one instance on STAR WARS REBELS (Kanan is a Jedi who was a padawan and survived the purge, Sabine is a Madalorian dissident whose life was directly the result of the machinations of Darth Maul AND the Emperor, as well as Obi-Wan and Anakin's effect on the planet and its culture, Hera's father Cham was a great leader in the Clone Wars who fought alongside the Jedi, and Hera herself survives in the Rebellion all through ROTJ).

I don't necessarily expect a direct connection to a Skywalker or Solo (in fact I've NEVER been on that bandwagon). But I'd love for her to have been distantly connected to Obi-Wan, or better yet the Mandalorians....which blows open the main saga films narrative, instead of once again turning it inwards. But connecting her to what's come before? DECIDEDLY easy as REBELS shows repeatedly.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

You're upset about Luke's characterization in this film?

Yes. It was against who he was and defeats all he accomplished in the OT.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

How would you have felt if on top of what happened (or in lieu of) he had abandoned his infant daughter for some (contrived) reason?

As I noted above, I was never a Rey Skywalker fan. I could never believe that Luke would leave a known daughter on a junk planet in the hands of a junk dealer. The only way that would have been possible would have been if her mother had never told Luek she was pregnant....but that was some hoops to jump through...so I never bought it. I also never bought her as a Solo since neither Han or Leia "react" to her in TFA.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Or the most powerful existing force user who can connect with his sister across the galaxy somehow can't sense his daughter?

See above. My pet theory was that she was a Kenobi granddaughter....but I was fully prepared for her to be a Palpatine clone, or someone else, or even (as it turns out) no one or random. But JJ set it all up that she was someone at the very least. There are many notes in the TFA script that elude to this "connection"...the least of whisch is that the Skywalker familial lightsaber called to her, gave her a force vision, and allowed Obi-Wan to speak to her. I see no reason for any of that to happen if there is zero connection to anything that came before.

And this isn't me not accepting that Rian says...She's no one. She's just a super gifted force user...I get that and as I noted I was prepared for that. BUT it flies int eh face of what came before it about her...and that's the bit that didn't connect for me. If Rey is just a proficient force user like Ahsoka, or Yoda, or anyone else in the thousands of years od Jedi history...awesome. But she was not set up that way, and thus the payoff is Rian just saying "Nope. Just kidding."...he even PANDERS to this early on when he has her go through her dark force vision in the cave and teases her about her parents and who they are. It's how he went about it, and it's the fact that after a bunch of set up, there was no payoff.

TL;DR: Rey's parents are junk traders who sold her for booze to Unkar Plutt on Jakku. Cool. I have absolutely ZERO issues with that...as long as I ignore THE FORCE AWAKENS where it's explicitly not said for the whole running time for reasons...and she's apparently blocked it out herself, and Snoke wants her because naturally there are NO other young force users in the galaxy to mine for your dark First Order force user club...apparently....

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I mean, I'm sure creative types could find someway to make this happen in a non-contrived way.....but maybe they don't want to and want to write their own (disney approved) stories. Star Wars has already seen the surprise parentage twist.....let's get on to something new!

I agree. Then why not just show us her parents were drunken junk traders in the first place in TFA? We started this journey from a place of questions. When those questions are answered in an unsatisfying way, the problem lay with either the person who asked it (JJ), or the person who answered it in a way that is unsatisfactory (Rian). I'm not sure who is to blame. JJ for his mystery box storytelling, or Rian for his desire to not follow anyone's act.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Sure, if TFA had been a different move, we could have had more of the generational focus on Skywalkers....but it wasn't so Rian Johnson made the best movie he could.

This is where I VEHEMENTLY disagree. Ryan simply doesn't have the skills to write it. LOOPER proves this. His entire writing schtick depends on weird plot contrivances that serve only where he needs to get the story. In his attempt to change up everything, he destroyed everything that came before. I'll use BLADE RUNNER 2049 as an example. BR:2049 is a great long sequel, because it tells a whole new story but it leaves the original story almost entirely untouched. It clears the table like Rian wanted to do here, but didn't do so at the expense of anyone or anything in that first movie. The writer (Hampton Fancher) of that film did an almost herculean job of that. He wrote a compelling movie that tells a wonderfully unique story, weaves in old characters and plot lines that came before without stepping on them, and crafts a pretty amazing narrative that also stands on its own without needing to hearken back to that first film. Ryan doesn't have these skills as a writer. LOOPER showed me that. And that's fine. They chose an auteur here, and they get what they get from him. So I guess, you're right, he did make the best movie he could...but it's not a good movie.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I dunno, I guess I just don't understand why Rey's parentage HAS to matter (beyond JJ's mystery box)?

Because it was set up. That's the only reason I need it to.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

We saw in the prequels that the force 'created' Anakin.

This is from a Legends, now non-canon book. It's not been confirmed in new canon how Anakin was immaculate.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 19 December 2017 - 03:32 PM

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 19 December 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Did Rian Johnson (or someone in this thread I guess) explicitly state that the goal of the movie was to say that "the force is for everyone"? I haven't seen that anywhere....but if it did happen, just ignore the rest of this post lol, and note that I stand corrected!

Most of the people arguing that this movie is amazing indicate that was what Rian was doing...I'm not sure he's ever said it himself but that certainly seems to be the takeaway of assassinating the Skywalker legacy AND giving us an inexplicably placed scene with young urchins who are force sensitive as Rose pontificates a diatribe about the "lesser" beings of the galaxy always getting screwed over.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I didn't find the movie hinged on the fact that the Skywalkers aren't the only powerful force users.......I think the Skywalkers were almost forgotten in this film (which I'm okay with)

It's just how I saw what Rian was saying, I happily concede it might not be everyone's personally takeaway.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

For me, Rians's rejection of JJ's Rey mystery box wasn't about being egalitarian with the force (as you point out, the force is pretty egalitarian already), but focusing on a story he wanted to write. He didn't think Rey's parentage needed to matter....so he wrote a story where Rey's parentage didn't matter (JJ could retcon all of this of course).

How this isn't a middle-finger to JJ setting it up is beyond me. It's like JJ threw the pitch to Rian over the plate...and Rian decided to walk 6 feet to the right and putt a golf ball into the dugout with his foot instead of hitting the baseball.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Further, I think that connecting Rey to OT (as that is what everyone wanted) characters in a meaningful way was next to impossible and attempting it would have resulted in contrived and shoe-horned writing.

This is not necessarily true. The Story Group has done so easily in more than one instance on STAR WARS REBELS (Kanan is a Jedi who was a padawan and survived the purge, Sabine is a Madalorian dissident whose life was directly the result of the machinations of Darth Maul AND the Emperor, as well as Obi-Wan and Anakin's effect on the planet and its culture, Hera's father Cham was a great leader in the Clone Wars who fought alongside the Jedi, and Hera herself survives in the Rebellion all through ROTJ).

I don't necessarily expect a direct connection to a Skywalker or Solo (in fact I've NEVER been on that bandwagon). But I'd love for her to have been distantly connected to Obi-Wan, or better yet the Mandalorians....which blows open the main saga films narrative, instead of once again turning it inwards. But connecting her to what's come before? DECIDEDLY easy as REBELS shows repeatedly.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

You're upset about Luke's characterization in this film?

Yes. It was against who he was and defeats all he accomplished in the OT.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

How would you have felt if on top of what happened (or in lieu of) he had abandoned his infant daughter for some (contrived) reason?

As I noted above, I was never a Rey Skywalker fan. I could never believe that Luke would leave a known daughter on a junk planet in the hands of a junk dealer. The only way that would have been possible would have been if her mother had never told Luek she was pregnant....but that was some hoops to jump through...so I never bought it. I also never bought her as a Solo since neither Han or Leia "react" to her in TFA.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Or the most powerful existing force user who can connect with his sister across the galaxy somehow can't sense his daughter?

See above. My pet theory was that she was a Kenobi granddaughter....but I was fully prepared for her to be a Palpatine clone, or someone else, or even (as it turns out) no one or random. But JJ set it all up that she was someone at the very least. There are many notes in the TFA script that elude to this "connection"...the least of whisch is that the Skywalker familial lightsaber called to her, gave her a force vision, and allowed Obi-Wan to speak to her. I see no reason for any of that to happen if there is zero connection to anything that came before.

And this isn't me not accepting that Rian says...She's no one. She's just a super gifted force user...I get that and as I noted I was prepared for that. BUT it flies int eh face of what came before it about her...and that's the bit that didn't connect for me. If Rey is just a proficient force user like Ahsoka, or Yoda, or anyone else in the thousands of years od Jedi history...awesome. But she was not set up that way, and thus the payoff is Rian just saying "Nope. Just kidding."...he even PANDERS to this early on when he has her go through her dark force vision in the cave and teases her about her parents and who they are. It's how he went about it, and it's the fact that after a bunch of set up, there was no payoff.

TL;DR: Rey's parents are junk traders who sold her for booze to Unkar Plutt on Jakku. Cool. I have absolutely ZERO issues with that...as long as I ignore THE FORCE AWAKENS where it's explicitly not said for the whole running time for reasons...and she's apparently blocked it out herself, and Snoke wants her because naturally there are NO other young force users in the galaxy to mine for your dark First Order force user club...apparently....

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I mean, I'm sure creative types could find someway to make this happen in a non-contrived way.....but maybe they don't want to and want to write their own (disney approved) stories. Star Wars has already seen the surprise parentage twist.....let's get on to something new!

I agree. Then why not just show us her parents were drunken junk traders in the first place in TFA? We started this journey from a place of questions. When those questions are answered in an unsatisfying way, the problem lay with either the person who asked it (JJ), or the person who answered it in a way that is unsatisfactory (Rian). I'm not sure who is to blame. JJ for his mystery box storytelling, or Rian for his desire to not follow anyone's act.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Sure, if TFA had been a different move, we could have had more of the generational focus on Skywalkers....but it wasn't so Rian Johnson made the best movie he could.

This is where I VEHEMENTLY disagree. Ryan simply doesn't have the skills to write it. LOOPER proves this. His entire writing schtick depends on weird plot contrivances that serve only where he needs to get the story. In his attempt to change up everything, he destroyed everything that came before. I'll use BLADE RUNNER 2049 as an example. BR:2049 is a great long sequel, because it tells a whole new story but it leaves the original story almost entirely untouched. It clears the table like Rian wanted to do here, but didn't do so at the expense of anyone or anything in that first movie. The writer (Hampton Fancher) of that film did an almost herculean job of that. He wrote a compelling movie that tells a wonderfully unique story, weaves in old characters and plot lines that came before without stepping on them, and crafts a pretty amazing narrative that also stands on its own without needing to hearken back to that first film. Ryan doesn't have these skills as a writer. LOOPER showed me that. And that's fine. They chose an auteur here, and they get what they get from him. So I guess, you're right, he did make the best movie he could...but it's not a good movie.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I dunno, I guess I just don't understand why Rey's parentage HAS to matter (beyond JJ's mystery box)?

Because it was set up. That's the only reason I need it to.

rant, on 19 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

We saw in the prequels that the force 'created' Anakin.

This is from a Legends, now non-canon book. It's not been confirmed in new canon how Anakin was immaculate.

I've yet to master the multi-quote, so apologies in advance.

In summation though, I agree that a large percentage of this was a major FU from Rian to JJ...but I think the onus is more on JJ's mystery box style of story telling than on Rian's rejection of that. I'm happy to ignore TFA lol.....I liked it, but as I've previously stated....I think the "mystery box/ spoilers are the only way to keep audiences engaged in a story" approach is lazy bullshit that emphasizes twists (what a twist!) over actual plot development, characterization, and story telling in general. But I get that that is a personal preference....so my being happy with Rian rejecting the mystery boxes is certainly a place someone else could be turned off.

If something is set up, does it have to follow the expectations you were hoping for? Where does the problem stem from?
What if this had been JJ's plan all along....built all of these nods in TFA to Rey's parentage, and then in HIS 2nd act (TLJ), the same reveal is made. Would you be angry, angrier, or placated because it was that author's vision all along. Just because you don't agree with the decision made doesn't mean there was no payoff.

For example, how often does SE set our expectations and then subvert them? In my mind, that is better story telling. It is easy (lazy) imo to rest on genre conventions, and I think Star Wars as a brand is a genre almost unto itself at this point.

As and aside, that was actually how I meant "Rian Johnson made the best film HE could" lol. I wasn't saying it was the best film (Star Wars or otherwise), just the best he could do, with what he was given (previous story and personal talents).

I do think there is a meta-issue of multiple visions going on. The JJ-->Rian-->JJ train is dumb. It should have been JJ all the way through, with Rian getting his own stand-alone trilogy as is now happening. A lot of the things we're debating right now would be non-existent if JJ could have seen this trilogy all the way through.

I think what my ultimate opinion boils down to is that TFA is where things went wrong for me, and Rian did an admirable job trying to course correct into new and interesting territory.
Though I'd be most happy with a beat for beat repeat of the NJO lol, so that tell's you something about my skewed tastes haha.

[QuickTidal]

There's a lot of meat to be had in this back and forth from the HWR, and a lot of it lines up with my problems with the film...and they say it more elegantly than I have here.

[polishgenius]

It's funny how me and QT have almost exactly opposite reactions to TFA and TLJ. That never happens!