[Felisin Fatter]

@Andorion: The Tiste do have magic, for example that Shake Warlock, and they mention many Shake are 'sensitive'. Those with such a talent perceive the waves of power coming off T'Riss. Anomander comments on the earth magic of the azathanai, as if he's familiar with several kinds of magic. The hust swords are 'forged with magic'. There is also a brief mention somewhere that whatever K'Rul did has changed things for the mages, and they're still getting used to it. Meaning that was a pretty recent event!
I'm quite sure MD was a powerful soreceror all by herself, ambitious and into research. Then K'rul opened the paths, and she went right in, exploring, and dove into chaos. She actually emerged from it, now 'an enemy to chaos'. This trip either drew Draconus' attention (maybe he even saved her? who knows?) or she had his aid from the beginning. He then became her consort and decided to give her all the power over darkness. I think that got out of hand quickly, and that might be why he went off on his own trip, to get something to control all that power? Just a theory for now. Can't wait for the next book.

[Inane Babble]

Quote from Ruthan Gudd, in The Crippled God

Quote

‘Carrying you? What am I, a Toblakai? No, there’s a travois … behind you. Dragging’s easier than carrying. Somewhat. Wish I had a dog. When I was a child … well, let’s just say that wishing I had a dog has been an unfamiliar experience. But yesterday I’d have cut a god’s throat for one single dog.’

Not saying anything about that event in FoD and why I hate SE for it, but yeah.

[Avernite]

Hood, on 19 April 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm going to throw this out anyway: after finishing this book and recently reading RotCG/OST, I think Tayschrenn surviving after ending up in the sea of Vitr adds more evidence to me that he is an Azathanai, and is most likely Arathan. It doesn't seem like anything other than Eleint/Azathanai can survive the Vitr.

Any thoughts?

Has there been any greatness and vileness, in all the MBotF, that humans have not aspired to - and sometimes succeeded at?

That is, it fits the whole series that a human could achieve what others thought only members of a specific race could ever hope to achieve.

[worry]

Yah, seems pretty clear that Tayschrenn is the preeminent aspirational human mage. He wasn't palling around with Kel and Dancer for their grandmamas' cookie recipes. He is simply just as ambitious as they are. Tays apparently has precognition powers, and if anything, RotCG shows that he was deliberately waiting for the whorl as his moment to step out.

[Mekeritrig]

Felisin Fatter, on 29 April 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

@Andorion: The Tiste do have magic, for example that Shake Warlock, and they mention many Shake are 'sensitive'. Those with such a talent perceive the waves of power coming off T'Riss. Anomander comments on the earth magic of the azathanai, as if he's familiar with several kinds of magic. The hust swords are 'forged with magic'. There is also a brief mention somewhere that whatever K'Rul did has changed things for the mages, and they're still getting used to it. Meaning that was a pretty recent event!
I'm quite sure MD was a powerful soreceror all by herself, ambitious and into research. Then K'rul opened the paths, and she went right in, exploring, and dove into chaos. She actually emerged from it, now 'an enemy to chaos'. This trip either drew Draconus' attention (maybe he even saved her? who knows?) or she had his aid from the beginning. He then became her consort and decided to give her all the power over darkness. I think that got out of hand quickly, and that might be why he went off on his own trip, to get something to control all that power? Just a theory for now. Can't wait for the next book.

Do we know that K'rul has already changed the course of magic with his blood? Legitimate question: it's been ages since I read the book. But we do know he hasn't made the bargain with the Eleint, as that's a major point of the blurb for FoL. It could be that he has already spilled his blood, but it's wild and unaspected.

[Tony-t]

after reading FOD and night of knives I think its obvious who arathan is....and its not ruthan gudd.

[Desert Snake]

It would make a lot more sense for Grizzin Farl to have died during the sundering, over being Ruthan Gudd. I recall Ruthan stating the power was borrowed, not his.

Potentially one of the souls in QB is weak blood tiste?? they reached an agreement within him, by memory. And didn't he grow up in karashimesh, and his sis chased him over the dolls?? re-reading TB now to check.
Its just that conversation he has with (MD?) on the spar of Andii that baffles me.

Arathans true mother could maybe be burn??

[Mekeritrig]

Desert Snake, on 21 June 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

It would make a lot more sense for Grizzin Farl to have died during the sundering, over being Ruthan Gudd. I recall Ruthan stating the power was borrowed, not his.

Potentially one of the souls in QB is weak blood tiste?? they reached an agreement within him, by memory. And didn't he grow up in karashimesh, and his sis chased him over the dolls?? re-reading TB now to check.
Its just that conversation he has with (MD?) on the spar of Andii that baffles me.

Arathans true mother could maybe be burn??

Not all of his power -- just the stormrider power is borrowed.

[prq]

Iamme, on 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

P.S: Nighchill was not killed by Rake. I don't think he could have defeated her.

Nightchill was "easily" killed by one of Tay's demons (yes she was distracted, but still). Rake beats the Prince of such demons.

And how powerful is the prince? Rake says himself (to whom? Crokus?) that he's not fighting Raest because he will be needed elsewhere in the city. To me this means Rake sees the Galayn Prince as a more powerful enemy than a Jaghut Tyrant. That's no mean feat!

[Andorion]

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Iamme, on 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

P.S: Nighchill was not killed by Rake. I don't think he could have defeated her.

Nightchill was "easily" killed by one of Tay's demons (yes she was distracted, but still). Rake beats the Prince of such demons.

And how powerful is the prince? Rake says himself (to whom? Crokus?) that he's not fighting Raest because he will be needed elsewhere in the city. To me this means Rake sees the Galayn Prince as a more powerful enemy than a Jaghut Tyrant. That's no mean feat!

I don't think Rake meant that the Galayn Prince was more powerful than Raest, just that since it had manifested in Darujhistan, he would have to deal with it immediately. Besides, my reading of that scenario was that it was never the plan to take out Raest in a head on battle but goad him into chasing Silanah into the trap

[prq]

Andorion, on 28 August 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Iamme, on 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

P.S: Nighchill was not killed by Rake. I don't think he could have defeated her.

Nightchill was "easily" killed by one of Tay's demons (yes she was distracted, but still). Rake beats the Prince of such demons.

And how powerful is the prince? Rake says himself (to whom? Crokus?) that he's not fighting Raest because he will be needed elsewhere in the city. To me this means Rake sees the Galayn Prince as a more powerful enemy than a Jaghut Tyrant. That's no mean feat!

I don't think Rake meant that the Galayn Prince was more powerful than Raest, just that since it had manifested in Darujhistan, he would have to deal with it immediately. Besides, my reading of that scenario was that it was never the plan to take out Raest in a head on battle but goad him into chasing Silanah into the trap

By then, the Galayn Prince hadn't manifested yet. In fact, the original plan was to have Raest weaken Rake enough for the Prince to finish him off. I don't think there were every any hopes of Raest by himself defeating Rake.

By the way, we find out later that Gothos takes the Azath Houses from the Maker and places them where he chooses. Perhaps Gothos had some influence in taking his own son prisoner.

Sorry, going on a tangent here, this is no longer FoD but GotM

[Andorion]

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Andorion, on 28 August 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Iamme, on 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

P.S: Nighchill was not killed by Rake. I don't think he could have defeated her.

Nightchill was "easily" killed by one of Tay's demons (yes she was distracted, but still). Rake beats the Prince of such demons.

And how powerful is the prince? Rake says himself (to whom? Crokus?) that he's not fighting Raest because he will be needed elsewhere in the city. To me this means Rake sees the Galayn Prince as a more powerful enemy than a Jaghut Tyrant. That's no mean feat!

I don't think Rake meant that the Galayn Prince was more powerful than Raest, just that since it had manifested in Darujhistan, he would have to deal with it immediately. Besides, my reading of that scenario was that it was never the plan to take out Raest in a head on battle but goad him into chasing Silanah into the trap

By then, the Galayn Prince hadn't manifested yet. In fact, the original plan was to have Raest weaken Rake enough for the Prince to finish him off. I don't think there were every any hopes of Raest by himself defeating Rake.

By the way, we find out later that Gothos takes the Azath Houses from the Maker and places them where he chooses. Perhaps Gothos had some influence in taking his own son prisoner.

Sorry, going on a tangent here, this is no longer FoD but GotM

I assume the argument that Raest could only weaken Rake and not destroy stems from Rake having Dragnipur. As we saw, Raest can take one hell of a lot of damage but one cut from Dragnipur and its bye bye time.

[ritchiediaz]

Just doing a reread through FOD and found something that I found interesting regarding the Korya / Delat / Quick Ben speculation.

When Korya is flaked out Haut and Varandas manage to get her to smoke a chronic blunt (so funny), Varandas mentions the dolls that Korya had, and he specifically mentions that there were a dozen dolls. A dozen dolls for a dozen souls? I'm at work so don't have the exact quote to hand, i will update later, just found it quite an interesting coincidence.

Exact exchange is (p705 UK paperback)

Quote

'What are you doing' she asked.
'Playing with dolls. Why?'
'I recognize those,' she whispered.
'Of course you do. Your master bought a dozen for you the week you came into his care. I make them'

This post has been edited by ritchiediaz: 19 February 2015 - 08:48 PM

[Dayspring]

I'm in the Arathan+Korya ----> Delat line that eventually end up with Ben Adaephon Delat camp. Not just anyone can be a mhybe, you can't just stuff 11 other souls into someone just because. ; if Quick Ben is descended from Korya it would make sense. It doesn't and probably makes more sense if not child of them, more like generations removed. In his monologue at the Spar of Andii he does say what Mother has given him is a bare whisper at the back of his soul, could be she's been whispering in his ear.

[Kartoolian Spider Squisher]

I haven't read FoD since the week it came out, but on first reading there seemed to be a simpler explanation to the identity of Korya Delath.

I'm going off of memory(and I read too many books to be doing this without at least one re-read) so forgive me if I get certain things absolutely wrong.

There is a female Tiste in tMBotF that we know exists at this time and should be a member of the Drukorlat family. Orfantal's big sister Korlat is curiously missing. Her name is also closer to Korya's. Isn't it also pretty clear that Korya and Orfantal share the same mother in FoD.

Just my 2 cents.

[Shadow Knight]

Kartoolian Spider Squisher, on 04 April 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

I haven't read FoD since the week it came out, but on first reading there seemed to be a simpler explanation to the identity of Korya Delath.

I'm going off of memory(and I read too many books to be doing this without at least one re-read) so forgive me if I get certain things absolutely wrong.

There is a female Tiste in tMBotF that we know exists at this time and should be a member of the Drukorlat family. Orfantal's big sister Korlat is curiously missing. Her name is also closer to Korya's. Isn't it also pretty clear that Korya and Orfantal share the same mother in FoD.

Just my 2 cents.

No Korya and Orfantal don't share the same mother,

[Nevyn]

Just re-reading FoD again as I was rediscovering these threads, and there is simply no way that Korya does not somehow become part of Quick Ben.

Too many possibilities for how it happens, from a simple "she's one of the soushifted mages", to a much more complicated explanation where Korya + potentially others continue shifting souls into new hosts throughout the generations (hence Haut's comments about never dying).

It is not just the name. Not just the dolls. There is a conversation with Haut where he talks about hating the use of weapons and how she will not use them. There is the fact that she visits the Spar of Andii (and sees blood spilt there, which could be the 'old blood' later used by QB in tCG). And the soulshifting is not just the Mahybe references, she talks to Varandas about it (as he soulshifts something into his nachts) There is no way that is all coincidence.

I haven't gotten any more of less sure on the other mysteries. I think there are multiple ways to argue them. But I'm certain Korya's soul/memories are in QB.

Whether we have met any other QB souls in FoD is unclear. I get the arguments for Arathan but doubt it.

[Mooseproof]

Old Man from Forge of Darkness = Old Man Moon from Blood and Bone, right?

[Jaime Lannister]

prq, on 28 August 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

And how powerful is the prince? Rake says himself (to whom? Crokus?) that he's not fighting Raest because he will be needed elsewhere in the city. To me this means Rake sees the Galayn Prince as a more powerful enemy than a Jaghut Tyrant. That's no mean feat!

I find that Raest is often given the short-shrift in discussions regarding power levels.

Quote

Baruk stared at the Tiste Andii. 'Are you that certain you'll be able to destroy the Jaghut?'

'No. But when it is finished with us, it will have been much reduced. Then it falls to others – to your Cabal, in fact. There's no certainty in this, Baruk. That seems a fact particularly galling to you humans. You'd better learn to accept it.

Notice that Rake says 'us' – indicating that Rake believes that himself and an unknown number of allies (presumably Sillanah and his Soletaken Andii), collectively, are not sufficiently strong enough for him to be certain of victory. In fact, he believes their failure is entirely plausible, and that a diminished Raest would fall to the Cabal to defeat. And yet it is still not certain they would emerge victorious over the Tyrant.

Raest was a monster. And while I'd be sympathetic to those who'd argue this quote a GoTM aberration, it is still unreasonable to rate him as low as many people seem to do. IIRC, the Imass and Jaghut had to collaborate to dethrone him, and Gothos himself was among those who contributed.

This post has been edited by Jaime Lannister: 04 August 2015 - 11:00 AM

[Gorefest]

Well, he is Gothos' son and Icarium's half brother, surely that should put things in perspective already? If he'd had his Finnest, he'd be a freaking maelstrom.