[IgnatiusKruppe]

If Quick is a Mhybe then he could have totally been reborn and aged fast enough to be a brother to his sister. And of courseHe would do such a thing in 7C where his black skin wouldn't stand out too much.
Awesome to have hints of Evil Mael.. Mbotf made it clear that he was a bad bad man once upon a time

[ChunkyBenjamin]

I doubt Icarium is Arathan. Icarium is half Toblakai, and half Jaghut. Draconus does have the scene with the Thel akai though to check if the bordersword is pregnant. I think he is probably one of the souls in Quick Ben (only because of the vague reference to Mother in the crippled god when he conjures the horse). Isnt Gothos refered to as Icariums uncle on a couple of occasions? Also I think the child that that Bordersword (cant remember her name offhand) is carrying is Grizzin Farls, not Arathans (and I think the kid turns out to be Nathan rudd).

[Iamme]

ChunkyBenjamin, on 19 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

I doubt Icarium is Arathan. Icarium is half Toblakai, and half Jaghut. Draconus does have the scene with the Thel akai though to check if the bordersword is pregnant. I think he is probably one of the souls in Quick Ben (only because of the vague reference to Mother in the crippled god when he conjures the horse). Isnt Gothos refered to as Icariums uncle on a couple of occasions? Also I think the child that that Bordersword (cant remember her name offhand) is carrying is Grizzin Farls, not Arathans (and I think the kid turns out to be Nathan rudd).

I too believe Icarium is Arathan but I don't think he is half Jaghut. He could be half "Tel-Akai" (no toblakai at that time) since we don't know his mum.

[Puck]

ChunkyBenjamin, on 19 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

I doubt Icarium is Arathan. Icarium is half Toblakai, and half Jaghut. Draconus does have the scene with the Thel akai though to check if the bordersword is pregnant. I think he is probably one of the souls in Quick Ben (only because of the vague reference to Mother in the crippled god when he conjures the horse). Isnt Gothos refered to as Icariums uncle on a couple of occasions? Also I think the child that that Bordersword (cant remember her name offhand) is carrying is Grizzin Farls, not Arathans (and I think the kid turns out to be Nathan rudd).

Iamme, on 21 November 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I too believe Icarium is Arathan but I don't think he is half Jaghut. He could be half "Tel-Akai" (no toblakai at that time) since we don't know his mum.

Are you guys sure we're talking about the same books here? Gothos is Icarium's father, not uncle, and that kinda makes Icarium half Jaghut, which is kinda a given considering he gets called a Jhag about a trillion times.

I like the idea about Feren's kid, though.

Also, could people please try to remember character names? Having to guess who the hell it is someone is talking about is a bit annoying.

[Drusas Achamian]

Spoiler MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOK SPOILERS REMOVED.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 21 November 2012 - 08:03 PM

[Iamme]

Puck, on 21 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

ChunkyBenjamin, on 19 November 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

I doubt Icarium is Arathan. Icarium is half Toblakai, and half Jaghut. Draconus does have the scene with the Thel akai though to check if the bordersword is pregnant. I think he is probably one of the souls in Quick Ben (only because of the vague reference to Mother in the crippled god when he conjures the horse). Isnt Gothos refered to as Icariums uncle on a couple of occasions? Also I think the child that that Bordersword (cant remember her name offhand) is carrying is Grizzin Farls, not Arathans (and I think the kid turns out to be Nathan rudd).

Iamme, on 21 November 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I too believe Icarium is Arathan but I don't think he is half Jaghut. He could be half "Tel-Akai" (no toblakai at that time) since we don't know his mum.

Are you guys sure we're talking about the same books here? Gothos is Icarium's father, not uncle, and that kinda makes Icarium half Jaghut, which is kinda a given considering he gets called a Jhag about a trillion times.

I like the idea about Feren's kid, though.

Also, could people please try to remember character names? Having to guess who the hell it is someone is talking about is a bit annoying.

Yes, tMBotf has been known to present "correct" history of all the ancients.

[Iamme]

Okay so let me try this:
1) Icarium manages to destroy an Azath house and in the process gets the gift of chaos (or something). How does he do it (destroying the Azath)?
2) He is not an ascendant. Why is he alive?
3) He uses "ice" in DoD to fight skykeeps, too much ice for my taste. How? How many half-breeds can access elder warrens and to that extent? He is not known for his "jaghut" sorcery.
4) He literally spawns an Azath using an eye of an Elder in DoD. Not exactly a skill your everyday Jaghuts have...
5) Why is Jaghut magic related to ice?

[Puck]

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yes, tMBotf has been known to present "correct" history of all the ancients.

And people have been known to jerk off to one particular idea because it's the only one they can wrap their mind around. Just because a few - I repeat: a few - facts have been added to (not changed, added to, big difference there) does not mean that everything that we know is up for grabs now. A big part of dealing with unreliable history is using your own mind to deduce what can be relied upon and what not AND keeping the big picture in mind. And I dare say that the daddy of a certain character is a reliable enough source when it comes to that character being a Jhag or not. I'm not talking about Icarium's mom, that's up for debate, even though we have enough clues. But when it comes to the worst, Icarium himself identifies as a Jhag.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Okay so let me try this:
1) Icarium manages to destroy an Azath house and in the process gets the gift of chaos (or something). How does he do it (destroying the Azath)?
2) He is not an ascendant. Why is he alive?
3) He uses "ice" in DoD to fight skykeeps, too much ice for my taste. How? How many half-breeds can access elder warrens and to that extent? He is not known for his "jaghut" sorcery.
4) He literally spawns an Azath using an eye of an Elder in DoD. Not exactly a skill your everyday Jaghuts have...
5) Why is Jaghut magic related to ice?

1) He's the son of Gothos, who may or may not be the creator of the Jaghut race. At the very least he's freaking old and freaking powerful. You'd think his son would have inherited some of it. And to go further, there's the theory that Kilmandaros is Icarium's mom. Who's Kilmandaros? Exactly, she's the goddess of Smashing Things to Pieces. With her bare fists. The truth probably lies in there somewhere, but there are enough sources for Icarium to have gotten his power from. It's not chaos induced. His madness is.

2) Name one Jaghut you know of who's died of age. As you may or may not remember every half-breed is different and inherits other things from his parents. Besides, Icarium is perfectly capable of using magic to alter the influence of time on things. Go reread DG and what's said about his time machines and the fact that the sorcery protecting them keeps them from being ravaged by time and natural influences.

3) Funny, you are using something we indeed can't say for sure to argue against something we can absolutely say for sure. No, he is indeed not known for his Jaghut sorcery, but he is known for his own sorcery. It may be a stretch, but in my quest to answer to every point of yours I want to mention that time and ice are very closely connected, as evidenced by the whole continent of Lether that was sealed in ice and thus in time by none other than the G-man, aka Gothos.

4) Icarium does not spawn an Azath. The Azath spawn itself. All Icarium does is take the eye and place it in the right spot.

5) Ice is related to death, longevity, solitude, time(-lessness), power, detruction.. I'm sure you can think of more things to associate with it. Ice is the opposite of the fire of life that is the Imass's element. I could write a whole essay on why ice is the perfect element to use for Jaghut magic. The Jaghut afterworld is an ice waste. I suits their temperament.

There are a lot of other things to say on this topic, but I guess I'll leave it at that.

[Iamme]

Puck, on 22 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Yes, tMBotf has been known to present "correct" history of all the ancients.

And people have been known to jerk off to one particular idea because it's the only one they can wrap their mind around. Just because a few - I repeat: a few - facts have been added to (not changed, added to, big difference there) does not mean that everything that we know is up for grabs now. A big part of dealing with unreliable history is using your own mind to deduce what can be relied upon and what not AND keeping the big picture in mind. And I dare say that the daddy of a certain character is a reliable enough source when it comes to that character being a Jhag or not. I'm not talking about Icarium's mom, that's up for debate, even though we have enough clues. But when it comes to the worst, Icarium himself identifies as a Jhag.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Okay so let me try this:
1) Icarium manages to destroy an Azath house and in the process gets the gift of chaos (or something). How does he do it (destroying the Azath)?
2) He is not an ascendant. Why is he alive?
3) He uses "ice" in DoD to fight skykeeps, too much ice for my taste. How? How many half-breeds can access elder warrens and to that extent? He is not known for his "jaghut" sorcery.
4) He literally spawns an Azath using an eye of an Elder in DoD. Not exactly a skill your everyday Jaghuts have...
5) Why is Jaghut magic related to ice?

1) He's the son of Gothos, who may or may not be the creator of the Jaghut race. At the very least he's freaking old and freaking powerful. You'd think his son would have inherited some of it. And to go further, there's the theory that Kilmandaros is Icarium's mom. Who's Kilmandaros? Exactly, she's the goddess of Smashing Things to Pieces. With her bare fists. The truth probably lies in there somewhere, but there are enough sources for Icarium to have gotten his power from. It's not chaos induced. His madness is.

2) Name one Jaghut you know of who's died of age. As you may or may not remember every half-breed is different and inherits other things from his parents. Besides, Icarium is perfectly capable of using magic to alter the influence of time on things. Go reread DG and what's said about his time machines and the fact that the sorcery protecting them keeps them from being ravaged by time and natural influences.

3) Funny, you are using something we indeed can't say for sure to argue against something we can absolutely say for sure. No, he is indeed not known for his Jaghut sorcery, but he is known for his own sorcery. It may be a stretch, but in my quest to answer to every point of yours I want to mention that time and ice are very closely connected, as evidenced by the whole continent of Lether that was sealed in ice and thus in time by none other than the G-man, aka Gothos.

4) Icarium does not spawn an Azath. The Azath spawn itself. All Icarium does is take the eye and place it in the right spot.

5) Ice is related to death, longevity, solitude, time(-lessness), power, detruction.. I'm sure you can think of more things to associate with it. Ice is the opposite of the fire of life that is the Imass's element. I could write a whole essay on why ice is the perfect element to use for Jaghut magic. The Jaghut afterworld is an ice waste. I suits their temperament.

There are a lot of other things to say on this topic, but I guess I'll leave it at that.

[quote name='Puck' timestamp='1353582778' post='1011644']
1) He's the son of Gothos, who may or may not be the creator of the Jaghut race. At the very least he's freaking old and freaking powerful. You'd think his son would have inherited some of it. And to go further, there's the theory that Kilmandaros is Icarium's mom. Who's Kilmandaros? Exactly, she's the goddess of Smashing Things to Pieces. With her bare fists. The truth probably lies in there somewhere, but there are enough sources for Icarium to have gotten his power from. It's not chaos induced. His madness is.

So he is not a Jhag, according to your own comment. Also, the power he is famous for, his madness and what follows is very much chaotic. He becomes a conduit for chaos. He is not known for "other" powers, even though they might exist.

2) Name one Jaghut you know of who's died of age. As you may or may not remember every half-breed is different and inherits other things from his parents. Besides, Icarium is perfectly capable of using magic to alter the influence of time on things. Go reread DG and what's said about his time machines and the fact that the sorcery protecting them keeps them from being ravaged by time and natural influences.

All. if FoD is any proof, there is not one single "immortal" Jaghut. Hood took the seat of a GOD. Gothos took the Azath way. When these guys were born, magic itself was virtually non-existent. Jaghut civilization is old. All those who came before Gothos and Hood must be dead. Jaghut perhaps live longer than Tiste (2000 years) but they were not immortal. Yes, Icarium can wield Omtose Phellack but why. All mixed kids end up losing daddy or mommy's abilities. We can always wish for Topper to access Elder Darkness but he cannot. Also, do you recall any Andu name dying of old age?

3) Funny, you are using something we indeed can't say for sure to argue against something we can absolutely say for sure. No, he is indeed not known for his Jaghut sorcery, but he is known for his own sorcery. It may be a stretch, but in my quest to answer to every point of yours I want to mention that time and ice are very closely connected, as evidenced by the whole continent of Lether that was sealed in ice and thus in time by none other than the G-man, aka Gothos.

Jaghut sorcery is ice. We know that. My point is that Icarium can do something virtually no other mixed kids can. Gothos lives in a time-less house. Gothos and Hood in many ways were like Rake and Ruin. They saw the end of their civilization. Who knows how long their civilizations lasted. When Arathan meets Gothos, Gothos is OLD. Not God/Ascendant old but just old.

4) Icarium does not spawn an Azath. The Azath spawn itself. All Icarium does is take the eye and place it in the right spot.

Nah, Icarium started the process. If Azath just spawned out of blue, what need be of Icarium. One of the souls inside Icarium asked him to fashion a "hole-plug" and another suggested using a living eye of God to close it. Azath didn't just happen like it happened in tGoM.

5) Ice is related to death, longevity, solitude, time(-lessness), power, detruction.. I'm sure you can think of more things to associate with it. Ice is the opposite of the fire of life that is the Imass's element. I could write a whole essay on why ice is the perfect element to use for Jaghut magic. The Jaghut afterworld is an ice waste. I suits their temperament.

This is all based on malazan books. FoD shows a different jaghut society. Their lands were no different from Tiste or Assail. Tellan was created to oppose Ice, not the other way around. Jaghut were not cold people. Hood's war on death is proof of that. Would you prefer company in heat or cold?


P.S: Icarium might just be a Jhag and Arathan might die in Kharkhanas trilogy. I truly don't believe Icarium is Arathan but he can be. Many know fathers have lied about their "kids". Gothos as "father-figure" and unknown mother, you have a Jhag! King of high house dark has black skin!

This post has been edited by Iamme: 22 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

[Macros]

I thought Arathan was yong when he met Gothos.
like the tiste version of a teenager?

Jaghut area cold remote people, the lord of hate destroyed their civlisation sure, but it didn't seem to be much to begin with.

Jaghut are immensely powerful beings, their ability to set themselves up as tyrants and gods is a testament to this. So Icarium got power from his folks, Arathan is not Icarium he is quite clearly Draconus' son, and not once are Jhag features or tusks mentioned when describing him. Consider the surprise at the revelations of his blood, he clearly has the appearance of a tiste, else it would be remarked upon.

[Puck]

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

So he is not a Jhag, according to your own comment. Also, the power he is famous for, his madness and what follows is very much chaotic. He becomes a conduit for chaos. He is not known for "other" powers, even though they might exist.

Nah, he's known as the Lord of Time for the lulz and because he's got no other powers than whatever chaos brought to him. Sure.

Power does not equal making fireworks.

Also, nothing of what I said contradicts the fact that he is a Jhag.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

All. if FoD is any proof, there is not one single "immortal" Jaghut. Hood took the seat of a GOD. Gothos took the Azath way. When these guys were born, magic itself was virtually non-existent. Jaghut civilization is old. All those who came before Gothos and Hood must be dead. Jaghut perhaps live longer than Tiste (2000 years) but they were not immortal. Yes, Icarium can wield Omtose Phellack but why. All mixed kids end up losing daddy or mommy's abilities. We can always wish for Topper to access Elder Darkness but he cannot.

I very much doubt Gothos needs the Azath to stay alive. And naturally, most of those who came before him are dead, considering there were precious little of those who came before him, him being the one who oversaw the rise AND decline of the Jaghut civilization. Actually, Gothos convinced the Jaghut to stop this civilization bullshit to begin with. And apart from those who fell in the War on Death or were killen by the T'lan Imass many seem to be quite alive and kicking still. Aramala, Cynnigig, the Huntress, Bedusk and his wife... just to name a few. They might not be immortal, but what's that to say with that kind of life-span?

As to why Icarium likely can use Omtose Phellack I refer you to what I already said and add that he happens to have a functioning brain that allows him to come up with unconventional ways to use it. And that said, we do not know for what Jaghut use their sorcery when they're not calling down ice ages. I've heard subtlety is quite en vogue from time to time.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Jaghut sorcery is ice. We know that. My point is that Icarium can do something virtually no other mixed kids can. Gothos lives in a time-less house. Gothos and Hood in many ways were like Rake and Ruin. They saw the end of their civilization. Who knows how long their civilizations lasted. When Arathan meets Gothos, he is OLD. Not God/Ascendant old but just old.

Again, Icarium has a functioning brain. I'm sure if Topper had inherited the ability to use Kurald Galain he'd also find more subtle uses than jumping in and out of it as a party gag. The more subtle yourmind works the more subtle you can use the power at your disposal. It's like specialising in a craft. There are scientists so specialized in their are of research that they are the only ones in the world who know this much about their area of interest. With magic it's the same.
And Gothos caused the Jaghut to end their civilizations. Pre FoD events.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Nah, Icarium started the process. If Azath just spawned out of blue, what need be of Icarium. One of the souls inside Icarium asked him to fashion a "hole-plug" and another suggested using a living eye of God to close it. Azath didn't just happen like it happened in tGoM.

In what way does this contradict what I said? Azath houses rise where there is an unhealthy gathering of power. Icarium happens to be such an unhealthy (for the world) being of power. In no way does that mean he spawned it. The action of using an eye to plug a hole does not requiere the immense amounts of power you seem to think it does. He acts as a bridge, but that's a completely different thing from actively 'spawning' and thus creating a Azath.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

This is all based on malazan books. FoD shows a different jaghut society. Their lands were no different from Tiste or Assail. Tellan was created to oppose Ice, not the other way around. Jaghut were not cold people. Hood's war on death is proof of that. Would you prefer company in heat or cold?

May I refer you to all the arguments you use from the MBotF? Saying that my arguments do not concern FoD because they are from the MBotF is biting your own hand.

The Jaghut were a rational people. Sitting down and ending your own civilization does requiere that kind of rationality. Hood's War on Death was such an exceptional thing because he let himself be guided by emotions, and when you read the passage in question closely it's still a consciously made decision to be guided by his emotions, as opposed to just jumping up and running amok. Hence the ice aspect. There are so many more facets to that than just freezing feet. Again, ice is just the focus of an all encompassing concept of what the Jaghut are. Ice is a symbol for many things that are closely intertwined with their race; a symbol that is needed because no sane mind could possibly operate with a magic that is scattered all over the ideological plane; magic needs focus, and the best representation of that for the Jaghut is ice.

Now it is you who is mixing up things. Yes, the Tellann Ritual was created to oppose the Jaghut, but the assiciation of the Imass with fire had been there a long time before the ritual. They worshipped what they saw when they looked into their camp fires.

And another thing: there is no Jaghut society in the MBotF. What little we see of them there is not much different from what we see in FoD. Yes, there are Jaghut settlements shown on the map in FoD, but if you actually read the text it tells you that Omtose Phellack is not called the Empty City for nothing.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

P.S: Icarium might just be a Jhag and Arathan might die in Kharkhanas trilogy. I truly don't believe Icarium is Arathan but he can be. Many know fathers have lied about their "kids". Gothos as "father-figure" and unknown mother, you have a Jhag! King of high house dark has black skin!

Icarium's not the only offspring of Gothos we meet. To me it seemed a bit like a self-inflicted punishment of Gothos to admit to his offspring being a bit beside the norm.

[Iamme]

Macros, on 22 November 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I thought Arathan was yong when he met Gothos.
like the tiste version of a teenager?

Jaghut area cold remote people, the lord of hate destroyed their civlisation sure, but it didn't seem to be much to begin with.

Jaghut are immensely powerful beings, their ability to set themselves up as tyrants and gods is a testament to this. So Icarium got power from his folks, Arathan is not Icarium he is quite clearly Draconus' son, and not once are Jhag features or tusks mentioned when describing him. Consider the surprise at the revelations of his blood, he clearly has the appearance of a tiste, else it would be remarked upon.

Arathan is Azathanai. He doesn't look like "anything". He might be a 300000 year old butterfly living in malaz for all we know..Jaghut are only now discovering their ice magic thanks to K'rul (my educated guess). Rake and Osserc, both archmages in malazan books have no magic of their own at this moment. Raest was new kind of Jaghut. I doubt Gothos always had "omtose phellack" to rely on.

[Puck]

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Arathan is Azathanai. He doesn't look like "anything".

Yes, and because he doesn't look like anything he's so well intergrated into House Dracons and all the Tiste staff that's running around there

He remarks on how he does and does not look in the very first chapter of FoD.

[Iamme]

Puck, on 22 November 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

So he is not a Jhag, according to your own comment. Also, the power he is famous for, his madness and what follows is very much chaotic. He becomes a conduit for chaos. He is not known for "other" powers, even though they might exist.

Nah, he's known as the Lord of Time for the lulz and because he's got no other powers than whatever chaos brought to him. Sure.

Power does not equal making fireworks.

Also, nothing of what I said contradicts the fact that he is a Jhag.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

All. if FoD is any proof, there is not one single "immortal" Jaghut. Hood took the seat of a GOD. Gothos took the Azath way. When these guys were born, magic itself was virtually non-existent. Jaghut civilization is old. All those who came before Gothos and Hood must be dead. Jaghut perhaps live longer than Tiste (2000 years) but they were not immortal. Yes, Icarium can wield Omtose Phellack but why. All mixed kids end up losing daddy or mommy's abilities. We can always wish for Topper to access Elder Darkness but he cannot.

I very much doubt Gothos needs the Azath to stay alive. And naturally, most of those who came before him are dead, considering there were precious little of those who came before him, him being the one who oversaw the rise AND decline of the Jaghut civilization. Actually, Gothos convinced the Jaghut to stop this civilization bullshit to begin with. And apart from those who fell in the War on Death or were killen by the T'lan Imass many seem to be quite alive and kicking still. Aramala, Cynnigig, the Huntress, Bedusk and his wife... just to name a few. They might not be immortal, but what's that to say with that kind of life-span?

As to why Icarium likely can use Omtose Phellack I refer you to what I already said and add that he happens to have a functioning brain that allows him to come up with unconventional ways to use it. And that said, we do not know for what Jaghut use their sorcery when they're not calling down ice ages. I've heard subtlety is quite en vogue from time to time.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Jaghut sorcery is ice. We know that. My point is that Icarium can do something virtually no other mixed kids can. Gothos lives in a time-less house. Gothos and Hood in many ways were like Rake and Ruin. They saw the end of their civilization. Who knows how long their civilizations lasted. When Arathan meets Gothos, he is OLD. Not God/Ascendant old but just old.

Again, Icarium has a functioning brain. I'm sure if Topper had inherited the ability to use Kurald Galain he'd also find more subtle uses than jumping in and out of it as a party gag. The more subtle yourmind works the more subtle you can use the power at your disposal. It's like specialising in a craft. There are scientists so specialized in their are of research that they are the only ones in the world who know this much about their area of interest. With magic it's the same.
And Gothos caused the Jaghut to end their civilizations. Pre FoD events.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Nah, Icarium started the process. If Azath just spawned out of blue, what need be of Icarium. One of the souls inside Icarium asked him to fashion a "hole-plug" and another suggested using a living eye of God to close it. Azath didn't just happen like it happened in tGoM.

In what way does this contradict what I said? Azath houses rise where there is an unhealthy gathering of power. Icarium happens to be such an unhealthy (for the world) being of power. In no way does that mean he spawned it. The action of using an eye to plug a hole does not requiere the immense amounts of power you seem to think it does. He acts as a bridge, but that's a completely different thing from actively 'spawning' and thus creating a Azath.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

This is all based on malazan books. FoD shows a different jaghut society. Their lands were no different from Tiste or Assail. Tellan was created to oppose Ice, not the other way around. Jaghut were not cold people. Hood's war on death is proof of that. Would you prefer company in heat or cold?

May I refer you to all the arguments you use from the MBotF? Saying that my arguments do not concern FoD because they are from the MBotF is biting your own hand.

The Jaghut were a rational people. Sitting down and ending your own civilization does requiere that kind of rationality. Hood's War on Death was such an exceptional thing because he let himself be guided by emotions, and when you read the passage in question closely it's still a consciously made decision to be guided by his emotions, as opposed to just jumping up and running amok. Hence the ice aspect. There are so many more facets to that than just freezing feet. Again, ice is just the focus of an all encompassing concept of what the Jaghut are. Ice is a symbol for many things that are closely intertwined with their race; a symbol that is needed because no sane mind could possibly operate with a magic that is scattered all over the ideological plane; magic needs focus, and the best representation of that for the Jaghut is ice.

Now it is you who is mixing up things. Yes, the Tellann Ritual was created to oppose the Jaghut, but the assiciation of the Imass with fire had been there a long time before the ritual. They worshipped what they saw when they looked into their camp fires.

And another thing: there is no Jaghut society in the MBotF. What little we see of them there is not much different from what we see in FoD. Yes, there are Jaghut settlements shown on the map in FoD, but if you actually read the text it tells you that Omtose Phellack is not called the Empty City for nothing.

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

P.S: Icarium might just be a Jhag and Arathan might die in Kharkhanas trilogy. I truly don't believe Icarium is Arathan but he can be. Many know fathers have lied about their "kids". Gothos as "father-figure" and unknown mother, you have a Jhag! King of high house dark has black skin!

Icarium's not the only offspring of Gothos we meet. To me it seemed a bit like a self-inflicted punishment of Gothos to admit to his offspring being a bit beside the norm.

I see you would rather debate for the sake of it. I quit. I will just quote what's in the book about Azath spawning in DoD:

I shall become a ghost again. Lost. Where are my children? You have abandoned me—there are too many of them, they close like wolves—my children—help me—

'You must close the gate.' Breath? 'Yes.
Feather Witch. The Errant drowned me. I took his eye, he took my life. Never bargain with gods. His eye—I give it to you, Lifestealer. The gate—do you see it? You are drawing nearer—Lifestealer, do not stop—'
Another voice spoke. 'They killed a dragon for this power, Icarium.'
Taxilian? 'Its blood burned this hole—if you fail, the sky shall fill with the enemy machines—and the Nah'ruk will triumph this day. See the K'Chain Che'Malle, Icarium? They can win this—if you stop the Gath'ran Citadels, if you stop them from entering this realm. Seal the gate!'
He could see it now. He held in his hand the eye of an Elder God. Slick, soft, smeared with blood. The wound between the realms was vast—even Kalse Uprooted could not— 'You must build a wall—' 'A prison!' Feather Witch hissed, 'Root and Blueiron, Lifestealer! Ice Haunt is not enough! You must awaken the warrens within you! Root to the rock and earth. Blueiron to hold life in your machines. Command the breach!' 'I cannot hold. I am dying.' 'There are children in the world, Icarium.' 'Asane? You do not understand. You are not enough—'



.......

Feel free to interpret..

P.S: I feel you have this misconception that Gothos is one the oldest Jaghut living (perhaps the first). If he is an Azathani, then he just might. Still, you need to build a civilization before you can take it down. Building a civilization can take 100000 years or more! Tiste for example is a old old civilization. If Gothos is not an Azathanai, he was born at the very height of Jaghut civilization and when he grew up, he destroyed it! Haut was alive then and he still is He is not an immortal so end of Jaghut civilization is not that old. Probably only a century! If Gothos is some immortal being, him conceding to Arathan that young Tiste has advantage of age makes no sense.

This post has been edited by Iamme: 22 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

[Iamme]

Puck, on 22 November 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Arathan is Azathanai. He doesn't look like "anything".

Yes, and because he doesn't look like anything he's so well intergrated into House Dracons and all the Tiste staff that's running around there

He remarks on how he does and does not look in the very first chapter of FoD.

How silly of me to ignore such obvious things. His father looks like a perfect TIste and we all know Draconus is a macho Tiste. Perhaps I should tern to Envy (Spite) when she explains why she looks the way she looks and why she is growing so slow (for an Azathnai). Whatever Arathan "looks" like, this is what Draconus wants him to look like. The "Tiste-child" as Gothos calls him.

Did you just want to contradict me or you had a point?

[Sinisdar Toste]

arathan=/=icarium for the simple fact that gothos would never call anyone his son who wasn't his biological son. jaghut family ties do not run deep.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Iamme, on 22 November 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Did you just want to contradict me or you had a point?

I think he is trying to have a discussion with you. Your thoughts and ideas extrapolate with surmised data. You are assuming you know how Gothos fits into Jaghut society, while the other folk are using evidence written in the books. you are going off of SE's penchant to turn things on their heads. Yes, it is possible for Icarium to be Arathan, as we all know that Azathanai can change their shapes based on who is worshipping them, what their will and intent is, etc. But to think that Icarium who looks like a Jaghut and Gothos who has told us he is Icariums father, we kind of have to go with it. Especially when he talks of his mother being a hag, or what not. The evidence supports the fact that Icarium is Gothos son and Arathan is Draconus' son. At this point you really cannot get too upset at people for trying to debunk your theory.

Also, about Topper accessing elder KG, we've seen a priest of Elder Dark do it, so it wouldn't be surprising if someone with Andii blood was able to access it as well. Though we do know that it took a hell of a bunch of andii to create the gate Clip used to get into KG, and Heuk used a blood ritual too, so obviously it would take blood to do it. I think Yan Tovis and the Shake also used a blood ritual/blood magic to access the road to KG.

Furthermore, the part where you quoted DoD is not just saying that Icarium is USING all those warrens, but that he has those warrens INSIDE him. He is the new K'rul, kind of. The magics that were created as a part of his starting his broken machine and being the general azath destroying chaos infected red headed stepchild that he is, are more refined than warren magics. Blueiron kept his Uprooted afloat, and Root commands the earth:

From DoD:

Quote

Breath strode back into the chamber, eyes scanning the floor. ‘Time,’ she said, ‘for a casting of the Tiles.’
Anticipation fluttered through the ghost, or perhaps it was terror. He felt himself drawn closer, staring avidly as she drew out her collection of Tiles. Polished bone? Ivory? Glazed clay? All kinds, he realized, shifting before his eyes.
Breath whispered, ‘See? Still young. So much, so much to decide.’ She licked her lips, her hands twitching.
The others drew closer, barring Taxilian who had remained in the other room.
‘I don’t recognize none of them,’ said Sheb.
‘Because they’re new,’ snapped Breath. ‘The old ones are dead. Useless. These’—she gestured—’they belong to us, just us. For now. And the time has come to give them their names.’ She raked them together in a clatter, scooped them up and held the Tiles in the enclosed bowl of her hands.
The ghost could see her flushed face, the sudden colour making her skin almost translucent, so that he could discern the faint cage of bones beneath. He saw her pulse through the finest vessels in her flesh, the rush and swish of blood in their eager circuit. He saw the sweat beading on her high brow, and the creatures swimming within it.
‘First,’ she said, ‘I need to remake some old ones. Give them new faces. The names may sound like ones you’ve heard before, but these are new anyway.’
‘How?’ demanded Sheb, still scowling. ‘How are they new?’
‘They just are.’ She sent the Tiles on to the floor. ‘No Holds, you see? Each one is unaligned, all of them are unaligned. That’s the first difference.’ She pointed. ‘Chance—Knuckles—but see how it’s at war with itself? That’s the truth of Chance right there. Fortune and Misfortune are mortal enemies. And that one: Rule—no throne, thrones are too obvious.’ She flipped that Tile. ‘And Ambition on the other side—they kill each other, you see?’ She began flipping more Tiles. ‘Life and Death, Light and Dark, Fire and Water, Air and Stone. Those are the old ones, remade.’ She swept those aside, leaving three remaining Tiles. ‘These are the most potent. Fury, and on its opposite side, Starwheel. Fury is just what it says. Blind, a destroyer of everything. Starwheel, that’s Time, but unravelled—’
‘Meaning what?’ Rautos asked, his voice strangely tight, his face pale.
Breath shrugged. ‘Before and after are meaningless. Ahead and behind, then and soon, none of them mean anything. All those words that try to force order and, uh, sequence.’ She shrugged again. ‘You won’t see Starwheel in the castings. You’ll just see Fury.’
‘How do you know?’
Her smile was chilling. ‘I just do.’ She pointed at the second to last Tile. ‘Root, and on the other side, Ice Haunt—they both seek the same thing. You get one or the other, never both. This last one, Blueiron there, that’s the sorcery that gives life to machines—it’s still strong in this place, I can feel it.’ She turned the Tile on to its other side. ‘Oblivion. Ware this one, it’s a curse. A demon. It eats you from the inside out. Your memories, your self.’ She licked her lips once more, this time nervously. ‘It’s very strong right now. And getting stronger... someone’s coming, someone’s coming to find us.’ She hissed suddenly and swept up the last Tiles. ‘We need—we need to feed Blueiron. Feed it!’
Taxilian spoke from the doorway. ‘I know, Breath. It is what I am trying to do.’
She faced him, teeth bared. ‘Can you taste this place?’
‘I can.’
From one side Asane whimpered, and then flinched as Nappet lashed out a foot to kick her. He would have done more but Last interposed himself between the two, arms crossed, eyes flat. Nappet sneered and turned away.
‘I don’t understand,’ said Rautos. ‘I taste nothing—nothing but dust.’
‘It wants our help,’ Taxilian announced.
Breath nodded.
‘Only I don’t know how.’
Breath held up a knife. ‘Open your flesh. Let the taste inside, Taxilian. Let it inside.’
Was this madness, or the only path to salvation? The ghost did not know. But he sensed a new flavour in the air. Excitement? Hunger? He could not be certain.
But Sulkit was on its way. Still gaunt, still weak. On its way, then, not to deliver slaughter.
The flavour, the ghost realized, was hope.

The eye of the Errant closed the gate the way that the Tiste Andii head that Legana Breed stole in DG closed the rent. The Azath spawned out of necessity. Why? I don't think we are really sure why. Just like how Draconus and the Errant were unsure of the house that spawned in FoD.

Having said all that. Nothing you have put forth provides any actual evidence to support the theory that Arathan is Icarium. Entertain it and suppose all you like, I will have fun with it, if you do. But since its only just a theory, and a weak one at that, I would not go to war defending it.

[Kento]

Who could wield vengeance and slay rake arathan

[Sinisdar Toste]

or, you know, dassem ultor. besides, rake threw the fight.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 23 November 2012 - 03:24 PM

[worry]

All of Arathan's fingers get chopped off, 10 different Mhybe's stick them up their rosie posies ala Feather Witch, and voila, Icarium, Quick Ben, Dessimbelackis, Tayschrenn, and some other future ascendants are all born 9 months later.