[Nevyn]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 24 March 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

What u might consider hints could just as easily be descriptive writing and/or misdirection. Arathan could still easily be the Builder or even no one we have ever seen. The hints dropped about QB could be anything.

My point is not that he would make them any of the characters we've seen yet.


My point is when you drop the hints he has (and I'm sorry, if its descriptive writing or misdirection and he intends to never provide further clarity then he's a jerk), at some point we should be finding out where those characters came from, because its important to the story.

[Nevyn]

nacht, on 24 March 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

My guesses are 1) Arathan is Edgewalker, 2) a soul in QB 3) Ruthan
I favor Grizzin Farl as being Ruthan (The Stormrider queen could have gifted him the armor too)

I agree with Grizzin Farl as possibly Ruthan. Fits the love of ladies thing. The new body thing and being called friend by Draconus would also fit.

Arathan as Edgewalker could happen but we've had no real hints going that direction. If I had to guess right now, I'd have Hunn Raal as Edgewalker, but thats a complete guess at this point.

A soul in QB is quite possible, since he has met Korya Delath and all the we's in the Spar of Andii speech imply he has multiple souls from long ago.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

If I had to plunge for one theory I particularly fancied, I'd say it'd be Grizzin Farl = Ruthan Gudd.

Quick Ben I haven't a clue. I think Delat-Delath is too obvious as people have said, and it's probably wise to not think as narrowly as purely familial and direct connections when the guy has at least 12 souls rattling around in there. I'd be interested to see if we will eventually find out though.

Arathan I'm intrigued by as we never really learn anything about Draconus having a son in MBotF (unless I've missed a reference) so it makes me wonder if he disappears entirely/dies/is kidnapped by aliens in the intervening time period and therefore we don't know him at all.

On a side note, I really enjoyed FoD, but I think I'll like it better when the trilogy is complete and I have the full thing to read at once. At the moment it suffers a tad for me from doing a lot of set up work.

[Nevyn]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 28 March 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

Arathan I'm intrigued by as we never really learn anything about Draconus having a son in MBotF (unless I've missed a reference) so it makes me wonder if he disappears entirely/dies/is kidnapped by aliens in the intervening time period and therefore we don't know him at all.

Envy mentions that it was a brother of hers that put Fanderay in the Ay's body.

Thats the closest thing to a direct mention.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Nevyn, on 28 March 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 28 March 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

Arathan I'm intrigued by as we never really learn anything about Draconus having a son in MBotF (unless I've missed a reference) so it makes me wonder if he disappears entirely/dies/is kidnapped by aliens in the intervening time period and therefore we don't know him at all.

Envy mentions that it was a brother of hers that put Fanderay in the Ay's body.

Thats the closest thing to a direct mention.

Ah, my mistake! Thanks however..... still probably the most intriguing one for me.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Is Anomander Rake Azathanai? And who is his mother?

[Iamme]

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 03 April 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Is Anomander Rake Azathanai? And who is his mother?

No. We don't know, yet.

[Puck]

Iamme, on 03 April 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 03 April 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Is Anomander Rake Azathanai? And who is his mother?

No. We don't know, yet.

My bet's on Emral, for some reason. Remember thinking that both when first reading FoD and on a reread, but couldn't produce any good reasons or qoutes right now.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Emral talks about Anomander Rakes mothers flaws.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

But its not her ... MD says to AR that she would like to tell AR a bit about ARs mother.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Then AR says he doesn't want to know as he has no memories of her and therefore no love. AR has memories of Emral xxx

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

I think ARs real mom is TIAM

[Puck]

Seriously, ever heard about editing your posts? With a side of grammar, maybe?


Also, guess why I said it's just an idea Beside the fact that Emral seems a tad too much on the sad side about the whole thing, but hey, ideas, right?

Also, here we go..

Quote

Relief was flooding through Emral. These brothers, the first chosen among Mother Dark's children, made fragile every fear and then shattered each one with sanguine confidence. Each time she looked upon them – Anomander, Silchas and especially Andarist – she saw their father, and the love within her, so shackled, so raw and bleeding beneath her obsessive flagellations, surged anew with defiant strength. Pleasure in anguish, hope in long-broken promises – she could almost feel years fall from her when in the presence of these three sons.

Quote

But there had been not a moment of hesitation in either Andarist or Silchas. Their trust in their brother's competence was breathtaking under the circumstances.
Sons of the father.
But of their mother's flaws, I pray... none.

Quote

Mother Dark sighed. 'You ever trouble me, First Son. One day I shall tell you of your mother.'
'I have no interest in her,' said Anomander. 'Love cannot survive the absence of memories, and for that woman we have none.'
'And has that not made you curious?'
The question seemed to startle him and he made no reply.
Emral wanted to weep, but her eyes remained dry, as if lined with sand. She struggled not to step back, to wheel and leave them to their bitter exchange. But she would not flee as had Syntara. Of vanity she had little, but ambition was another matter, twisted though its path might be.
Mother Dark's eyes were upon her, she now saw, but the goddess said nothing.

Quote

Mother Dark spoke. 'Beloved Emral... I once asked Kadaspala a question. I saw in his eyes that he knew this question, as if, long ago, it had been seared into his very soul. But for all that, he could give me no answer.'
'Mother Dark, what was the question?'
'One to be asked of an artist, a creator of portraits, whose talent is found not in the hands but in the eyes. I asked him: how does one paint love?'
He knew the question. He asked it of himself.
But he had no answer.
'Do you know,' Mother Dark went on, 'when you can see in darkness, nothing is hidden.'
If she wept now, the tears would freeze upon her cheeks, and burn leaving scars. For all to see.
'Nothing,' Mother Dark then added, 'but darkness itself.'

Of course, the above does not prove my theory - neither does it disprove it, though.

This post has been edited by Puck: 05 April 2013 - 06:26 PM

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

yep those are what i'm looking for

[worry]

Emral, eh?

BAM!

[nacht]

It is an appealing theory (especially because of Emral's reactions), but I feel there are some holes.

First, clearly the mother is known to other people and the kids have to had come from an officially blessed marriage as they are pretty high up in the nobility (i.e. they are not bastard children with unknown mother like Arathan who is treated quite lowly by Sagander etc.).
So everybody knows who the "official" mother is. It appears that she is not deceased, because Anomander's reaction is a bit vitriolic, which means she either left them or she died but had a flat-out bad reputation when that happened.
Since there were three children (and they are not triplets), whatever secret happened, it spanned multiple years.

It is possible there is a secret to their birth involving MD that Emral is aware of and her reaction is more of a sympathy for MD. We also know that Nimander absolutely worshipped MD.
A far fetched theory is that they might really be MD/Draconus children raised by Nimander as his own (to give them respect) and whoever was NImanders wife had to tag along in the charade and at some point she left Nimander and the children and she never treated them as her real children.
A second theory is that they are really Nimander's children with whoever that person was and it was either a marraige of convenience and that person was a real bitch in the nature of Nerys and she died at some point. A variant of this is that she was really a nice person who had to sacrifice her relationship with her children to do something else.
They could be Emral's childen with Nimander and she left to became a priestess. (but this would be an open secret that would hard to hide from the brother.
Finally they could be MD children with Nimander and whoever the official mother was, she had to accept this arrangement.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

On a reread I have a theory that:


Draconus is Nimander.
He had a child called Anomander with an Azathanai who will be later known as TIAM (who is Olar Ethil's sister).
The secret Tulas Shorn keeps from Silchus Ruin at the end of TCG is that Rake is not a blood brother of the other two.

This post has been edited by AnomanderRakeSoD: 07 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

[nacht]

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 07 April 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

On a reread I have a theory that:


Draconus is Nimander.
He had a child called Anomander with an Azathanai who will be later known as TIAM (who is Olar Ethil's sister).
The secret Tulas Shorn keeps from Silchus Ruin at the end of TCG is that Rake is not a blood brother of the other two.

It is physically possible because of Draconus's capability to change shapes and also create projections as well travel to places instantly through his warren.
but it seems confusing in otherways. Both Nimander and Draconus existed at the same time. They fought the same war. Nimander himself was thought off as a good candidate to marry MD (It would seem far easier for Draconus to continue as Nimander).
The existence of Draconus is explained that he came out of nowhere and got adopted into the Dracons house (and that is one of the reasons he is resented). Nimander on the other hand must have a history of birth and growth in the Tiste world.

Nimander has been dead only for two years unlike the mother who is long gone.

Quote

the body of their father, Nimander, lay in eternal repose within that crypt, in the hollowed-out trunk of a blackwood tree, but two years dead, and it was clear that his three sons were not yet done with the memory of him.

Quote

The wars stole them away from her, father and sons all, and when Lord Nimander returned early on, crippled and broken, Sandalath had huddled in her room, frozen with terror at the thought of any of her guardians dying on some distant field of battle. They had become the walls of her own house, her own palace, and she was their queen, for ever and always. How could such things ever end?

Quote

Lord Nimander and his three sons were one and all highborn and so confirmed the status of every Greater House. Indeed, it was thought that Lord Nimander would one day wed Mother Dark.' Urusander was studying her, and she saw by his expression that he was unaware of the details she was telling him. 'But Nimander died, and he died badly. There was even talk that Draconus was behind it.

[Pickles]

Malbolge, on 01 September 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Personally, on the parentage/origins of Quick Ben, I'm gonna go for him being the son of Arathan and Korya (A+K=QB?). With that, he has a prominent Mother (the first Tiste Mhybe, one perhaps created by Draconus - did he know that Haut would take her to the tower of Hate... and meet Arathan?), a connection to Dolls, a Tiste connection, and the Delath/Delat name. He also has a prominent Father, with a connection to Draconus (whose invitation to speak in DoD was quite familiar), unspecified 'power' (what power does Arathan have? We know what Envy/Spite can do... make you want it, make you like it). And what happens when an Azathanai (or half Azathanai) gets it on with a Mhybe? Or, could Arathan's power be to create Mhybes? And so any child coming from the union would be a Mhybe in a Mhybe? Or a special kind of Mhybe? Who can suck up souls and access them at will?

Prominent Mother and Father are needed for that speech of his on the Spar of Andii, I think. I'd assume that Korya/Arathan are going to get caught up with what is going on with the Jaghut, Hood and Gothos... and, that whatever happens there will have an impact on what is happening with the Tiste, MD and FL (or vice versa)... they're in the same trilogy, for a start. But also 1 small passage from the end of the book, as Gallan is closing the story... "He (Hood) raised a banner of grief, and this detail waves my intent, but Lord Anomander, at this juncture, was not ready to see it." makes me think that the 2 stories/chains of events will be linked. And Korya and Arathan's child will be involved, somehow. So, whatever QB was talking about in tCG on the Spar will be started in the trilogy.

Also... could (the word) Arathan somehow become Adaephon? Maybe little Ben has a slight speech impediment and the name gets... twisted a little.

@Studlock, just to point out... It's not 'Quick Ben' that Ruthan gets a kick out of... that was the name he would have known him by since he joined the Bonehunters. It's the name Adaephon Delat that sets him off... which is why people are looking for the connections between Delat/Delath and looking for anything like Adaephon to pop up.

Mael is Mael... from Setch and Errastas's last conversation, we know that he's called Mael, and he has fled far, to another realm. Could it be that Mael (if he's been forced to flee) isn't the 'nice guy' we see in Lether? Could it be he's a bit of a bad'un, and he's away getting his Jhistal on, perhaps on Wu?

Could Old Man be Ruthan? Ruthan was referred to as Elder, but not an Elder God. Old Man hasn't chosen a name (or a peoples) and so isn't a God(?)... just a sort of freelance Azathanai. Old Man = Elder. He knows Draconus, and there is that slight connection between the ice/cold aspect Old Man shows, and Ruthan's Stormrider magic. Could be he could 'borrow' it because he has some connection to where the Stormriders get it from. But, that Ice/Cold aspect makes me think that Old Man could become associated with the Jhagut (do they have an Azathanai associated with them, like Draconus/Tiste, Kilmandros/FA, Olar/Imass, Caladan/Thel Akai?). They don't seem to have any other ice/cold aspect to them, as yet.

As far as Ruthan and his identity... I think there's perhaps one thing to look for. Martial prowess. Well, maybe not prowess... but just being a Soldier. Can't remember if it's DoD or tCG where someone asks him why he joined the Bonehunters, and he replies 'habit'. For me, that implies he's some sort of warrior or soldier, prior to his time under the Azath.

Grizzin Farl, I have no idea... but remember, he was 'bloody', which he hasn't shown much of yet. I'd expect the Grizzin Farl we know to change, somewhat, before he becomes the Grizzin Farl worshipped in the Temples found in the Imperial Warren. <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Icarium is Jhag... so half Jhaghut, and the other half Thel or Toblakai (or so Karsa sees in him in RG). We haven't seen any Thel yet... just mention of the 1 sleeping Queen waking up.

I had a couple crazy theories about identities, that were eventually contradicted/dismissed... QB being associated (according to his sister) with Wolves got me thinking, when the Jheleck arrived at Haut's house and tried to take Korya away, that he might have been raised by Jheleck (also giving him that whiff of the Soletaken). But then Haut says no, so I dismissed it. But then the Jheleck come across the Borderswords and Feren... but again, nothing comes of that. There's no half Tiste child being raised by the Jheleck, thus far. Another one was mention of a "sleeping Thel Akai Queen waking up"... which made me think of Burn. Then we find out she's half Imass, and asleep in a cavern under a hut in a forest in Kurald Galain.

First post but just to throw in my own theory. QB's soul shifting powers could have found him being the ideal first soul for insertion into the mhybe (for the purpose of this argument and many of the other reasons given earlier in the thread I am going to assume Korya is the mhybe). Because the mhybe beforehand was essentially soulless, the first soul she takes on may be the one that forms her personality and other traits.

Assuming the myhbe is korya, my current theory is that at some point she was sent out to gather powerful souls into herself forming what will eventually become QB. Whether there was a specific purpose to this or just an attempt at creating a powerful ally is not yet clear. Obviously this leaves a HUGE time skip between FoD and Ben Delat being absorbed in the 7c but, well, this is Erikson. It would also explain after his sister's description of him as a human child, why the mischievous, scheming personality is the dominant one with others being suppressed or controlled.

[Abyss]

QB's inner monologue comment to his 'Mother' at the beginning of TCG certainly suggests a connection to at least one goddess, but the many-souls thing throws his origins wide open.
It's entirely possible he's carrying a soul that has little or no recall of its origins, or that the recall is so old it's no longer accurate either.

I doubt any Jheleckan connection tho', because i'm pretty sure those pups end up as the Hounds of Shadow in some way.


Ruthan.... i dunno... his comments in DoD and TCG certainly suggest someone old and accustomed to avoiding death and starting a new life, and his charge at the end of DoD suggstes he wasn't exactly worried much about dying. His explanation to Bottle is very trite, but of anyone, i think he's a serious candidate for being a well-hidden Azathanai