[Black Winged Lord]

Abyss, on 14 September 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I saw Gothos' TtH comment as running towards multiple builders who were all the same race, but i see the point that the one specific builder could be Arathan and others different, especially given the ref early in FoD to Az'i masons plural.

Tho FoD also tells us that the Az'i don't know where the Houses come from, but Gothos could form that link later on.

My head hurtz.

While I'm of the opinion that its unlikely that Arathan is Gothos's Builder, its definitely an interesting theory, and theres a great symmetry with Nimander getting his fingers crushed and Arathan's damaged digits.
On a tangent, is Gothos a Jaghut or an Azathanai?

[Ceda Cicero]

Black Winged Lord, on 17 September 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 September 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I saw Gothos' TtH comment as running towards multiple builders who were all the same race, but i see the point that the one specific builder could be Arathan and others different, especially given the ref early in FoD to Az'i masons plural.

Tho FoD also tells us that the Az'i don't know where the Houses come from, but Gothos could form that link later on.

My head hurtz.

While I'm of the opinion that its unlikely that Arathan is Gothos's Builder, its definitely an interesting theory, and theres a great symmetry with Nimander getting his fingers crushed and Arathan's damaged digits.
On a tangent, is Gothos a Jaghut or an Azathanai?

There's another thread in this forum discussing the idea of the "founding" races, and how the Jaghut seem to be a different animal based on info we get in FoD in that they don't appear to have a "patron" Azathanai to whom they can trace their origins, as do the Tiste, the Imass, the Thel Akai, the Forulkan, etc.

Unless Gothos is the Azathanai patron..? What kind of irony is that, if Gothos was instrumental in the origins of the Jaghut, and then was the one who decided to disband their civilization? And what kind of lesson is that for Draconus?

[amphibian]

Gothos didn't disband the civilization. He apparently wrote a book or gave some series of speeches that were persuasive enough for most of the Jaghut to just kind of cast away their works of permanence and become hippie recluses, superheroes and villains all on their lonesome.

[Siergiej]

Gothos as Azathanai patron of the Jaghut actually sounds pretty cool, but I think his children are kind of problematic here. Children of other Azathanai/Elder Gods are Azathanai themselves: Sechul Lath, Errastas, Spite, Envy, Malice, presumably Arathan too. Icarium and Raest seem to be almost casual Jhag nd Jaghut - only with the exception for the fact, that they are ridiculously powerful

[Studlock]

I about to stonerish, but what if the Azathanai are markers of the body and Jaghut maker of the soul? It matches their motifs of being Masons and being really good with soul jumping.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 18 September 2012 - 06:04 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

Siergiej, on 18 September 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Gothos as Azathanai patron of the Jaghut actually sounds pretty cool, but I think his children are kind of problematic here. Children of other Azathanai/Elder Gods are Azathanai themselves: Sechul Lath, Errastas, Spite, Envy, Malice, presumably Arathan too. Icarium and Raest seem to be almost casual Jhag nd Jaghut - only with the exception for the fact, that they are ridiculously powerful

I mean, do we have any evidence explicitly contradicting the possibility that Icarium and Raest are (unbeknownst to themselves, at least) Azathanai? I know all signs point to Jhag/Jaghut and there's certainly nothing explicitly in favor of the argument. But I don't think there's anything in MBotF that would make it outright unfeasible.

And who the fuck knows what Iccy was up to in the millenia before we meet him in DG. The Liosan call him the Maker of Time, and there's an entire society devoted to his worship (weird priests introduced in RG whose names I am totally blanking on ATM.)

[amphibian]

Ceda Cicero, on 18 September 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

And who the fuck knows what Iccy was up to in the millenia before we meet him in DG. The Liosan call him the Maker of Time, and there's an entire society devoted to his worship (weird priests introduced in RG whose names I am totally blanking on ATM.)

The T'orrud Cabal is the cult with the Assessor who bleeps his pants in Lether at the sight of Icarium.

[High Fist]

amphibian, on 19 September 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Ceda Cicero, on 18 September 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

And who the fuck knows what Iccy was up to in the millenia before we meet him in DG. The Liosan call him the Maker of Time, and there's an entire society devoted to his worship (weird priests introduced in RG whose names I am totally blanking on ATM.)

The T'orrud Cabal is the cult with the Assessor who bleeps his pants in Lether at the sight of Icarium.

T'orrud Cabal is in D'stan. I think the cult is something like the cult of the One God, with the sect that the priest belongs to being of the Laughing God (or somethine like that).

[amphibian]

My apologies, I went off the top of my head and the monks are called the Cabalhii. I knew there was a "cabal" somewhere in it and the T'orrud floated up to the top first. Good call.

http://encyclopediam...nior%20Assessor

[Siergiej]

Quote

I mean, do we have any evidence explicitly contradicting the possibility that Icarium and Raest are (unbeknownst to themselves, at least) Azathanai? I know all signs point to Jhag/Jaghut and there's certainly nothing explicitly in favor of the argument. But I don't think there's anything in MBotF that would make it outright unfeasible.

No. But neither we have any clear evidencne contradicting the theory that Anomander Rake is, in fact, a squirrel As we have already seen everything is an option in Malazan world, but c'mon, eleven novels from Erikson didn't even indicate that Icarium may not actually be Jhag and Raest Jaghut*.

*altohugh, I admit, the first ten didn't even hint at the fact that Mother Dark was in fact not a manifestation of elemental power but a casual lady, who just happened to become immensely powerful goddes by being banged by Draconus.

EDIT

Okay. now that I gave it some more thought, I was wrong with that "no indication at all". Icarium is a builder. He builds clocks, and machines and stuff. That actually sounds pretty Azathanai-ish. And Raest? Well, the guy finds living in Azath quite nice and comfy, so who knows. I take back my doubts. Really good theory, Cicero

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 19 September 2012 - 08:53 AM

[Ceda Cicero]

Siergiej, on 19 September 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Quote

I mean, do we have any evidence explicitly contradicting the possibility that Icarium and Raest are (unbeknownst to themselves, at least) Azathanai? I know all signs point to Jhag/Jaghut and there's certainly nothing explicitly in favor of the argument. But I don't think there's anything in MBotF that would make it outright unfeasible.

No. But neither we have any clear evidencne contradicting the theory that Anomander Rake is, in fact, a squirrel As we have already seen everything is an option in Malazan world, but c'mon, eleven novels from Erikson didn't even indicate that Icarium may not actually be Jhag and Raest Jaghut*.

*altohugh, I admit, the first ten didn't even hint at the fact that Mother Dark was in fact not a manifestation of elemental power but a casual lady, who just happened to become immensely powerful goddes by being banged by Draconus.

EDIT

Okay. now that I gave it some more thought, I was wrong with that "no indication at all". Icarium is a builder. He builds clocks, and machines and stuff. That actually sounds pretty Azathanai-ish. And Raest? Well, the guy finds living in Azath quite nice and comfy, so who knows. I take back my doubts. Really good theory, Cicero

Watching your backpedaling over the course of that post gave me immense satisfaction.

I get what you're saying about hairbrained theories though. It's what happens when you have an author who pulls stuff out of his ass (or seems to pull stuff out of his ass—I'd say there's a lot of both going on.)

That said, I'm not sold on the theory by any stretch, just floating it. And the whole exercise has made me realize how absolutely little we know about Icarium and what the fuck he is and what he's done over the course of a veeeeeery long life. Or how little we STILL know about anything, at all, for that matter.

[pitakon]

Grasping straws here, but somehow I think Arathan is the predecessor to Ganoes Paran.

[Silk]

surely the predecessor is the Errant?

[pitakon]

Silk, on 20 September 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

surely the predecessor is the Errant?

i was thinking more like he is the previous master of the deck. seeing as he want to displace the elder gods and their blood magic. just like how the deck has displaced the holds.

new question...

Spoiler

is legyl, korlat? or did sandalath had another child?

No mention of the DOG here. If I had to put money on long odds, I would say the dog is QB.

This post has been edited by pitakon: 21 September 2012 - 11:43 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

pitakon, on 20 September 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

Spoiler

is legyl, korlat? or did sandalath had another child?

legyl behust is a Hust, and not related to the korlas family.

i did want to make a few points about the azathanai here, since i've pondered how their children seem to be just as god-like as they when awakened, but their peoples are not.

i don't think the azathanai created the races, i think they shaped them from Vitr. think about it. only azathanai can survive it's touch. they are believed to have vessels capable of carrying Vitr. they are known for building wonderful things from raw, naturally occuring materials.

this can even fit nicely in with Studlocks idea that the azathanai created the bodies and the jaghut gave them souls, though i'm not sure how sold i am on that idea.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 21 September 2012 - 10:30 PM

[Ahmenous]

So I'm new here (first post besides intro) so don't shoot me if this is completely left field. Here I go:





So while reading I thought maybe Ardata was Arathan's mother....or a possible connection at least. I don't have page numbers (haven't figured that out in my kindle...if you even can) but when Draconus is talking to the Old Man and he mentions the two who went into the Vitr and Ardata is mentioned he reacts.

Quote

"Who so reaches?"
"I have heard Ardata's name mentioned. And the Sister of Dreams."
Draconus looked away, his expression unreadable. "One thing at a time," he muttered

For me the names are similar and Draconus is usually stoic and hardly "unreadable" we know him to be the stern faced badass. Also when Olar Ethil asks what Arathan's name is and laughs that's when I thought about the similarity in the names. And if the Old Man is the God on the Moon who waits for his lover or whatever it was he could just not like Draconus because he knocked up Ardata.

But I could be totally grasping at straws.

[bumsrush]

Just thought id throw this out there cos i dont think its been mentioned. Dont recall any reference in the book that Feren is pregnant to Arathan, just lots of assumptions. All Olar Ethil says is that the child has very unusual blood. I submit therefore that Grizzin Farl is in fact the father and their offspring will b none other than Ruthan Gudd.

[Puck]

bumsrush, on 23 September 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Just thought id throw this out there cos i dont think its been mentioned. Dont recall any reference in the book that Feren is pregnant to Arathan, just lots of assumptions. All Olar Ethil says is that the child has very unusual blood. I submit therefore that Grizzin Farl is in fact the father and their offspring will b none other than Ruthan Gudd.

Unlikely. Feren's been pregnant with Grizzin Farl's child before and that child died (can't remember how) and would've been around Arathan's age by the time of FoD.

[Silk]

hmmm, i thought the first child was some random males and not GF's as it happened in the past pre this book .... the current situation could be down to either Arathan or GF as they both fit into the time frame...

However given Drac's reaction when he does his ultrasound type spell I would say it probably lies more in Arathan's direction.....

[bumsrush]

I thought Draconus only confirmed the pregnancy rather than the father. It seems the more inference the child is Arathans the less likely I think it is. Wud b typical S.E to allow everyone to assume Arathan is the father, if only to maximise his grief when he finds out he isnt.