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The problem with using modern figures and subsequent distortions is that in a modern world there are no figures from that time period. Rake being the honorary son of md rather than the biological son is a question of history being distorted but certain characters who were alive during this time simply being different by the main arc is not a distortion. I wonder how many times over the course of this trilogy we are going to see ancient beings suddenly and comveniently mis remember certain details. Regarding the old man azathania i too beleive he is edgewalker and gains his name after the sundering of shadow.
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#23
Moss 
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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:46 PM
I think Arathan is Ruthan Gudd and QB (one of his souls) is the daughter of Arathan and Feren. The monologue scene at spare of andii in TCG refers to Gudd as father. Sounds crazy, but in mbotf everything is possible...
#24
blackzoid
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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:49 PM
Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 10 August 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:
The problem with using modern figures and subsequent distortions is that in a modern world there are no figures from that time period. Rake being the honorary son of md rather than the biological son is a question of history being distorted but certain characters who were alive during this time simply being different by the main arc is not a distortion. I wonder how many times over the course of this trilogy we are going to see ancient beings suddenly and comveniently mis remember certain details. Regarding the old man azathania i too beleive he is edgewalker and gains his name after the sundering of shadow.
But it ends up as this character becoming more prejudicied during the time of the first part of the main cycle. More prejudicied than from when they were much much younger and actually experianced (or at least lived around the time) when those events occured to which they than develop a prejudice to. Much later of course.
#25
tiam
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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:58 PM
As ive already noted on this thread arathan is half azathanai half something else elder so would not but susceptible to otateral an also wouldnt need sorcery to sustain his longevity. Ruthan gudd is possible but not likely
#26
Ceda Cicero
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:05 PM
I'm coming out of the gate way too early with this one (just finished the prelude), and it's probably no good.
Any chance at ALL that Quick Ben could be, in some way, Gallan?
These lines from the prelude got me wondering:
The latter being a subtle jab at the reader "If you think you're going to find a fast, easy explanation for who Quick is, think again."
It's thin, I know. Only other nod I'd give to this theory is the possibility that Gallan being one of Quick's souls would explain a lot of the "how" of Fisher finding Gallan and wanting to hear the tale.
Any chance at ALL that Quick Ben could be, in some way, Gallan?
These lines from the prelude got me wondering:
Quote
It is in my nature to wear masks, and to speak in a multitude of voices through lips not my own.
Quote
Am I the world's only lost soul? Do not begrudge my smile at that. I too cannot be made to fit into that small box, though many will try. No, best discard me entire, if peace of mind is desired.
The latter being a subtle jab at the reader "If you think you're going to find a fast, easy explanation for who Quick is, think again."
It's thin, I know. Only other nod I'd give to this theory is the possibility that Gallan being one of Quick's souls would explain a lot of the "how" of Fisher finding Gallan and wanting to hear the tale.
Illuyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:
How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?
#27
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:29 PM
Ceda Cicero, on 11 August 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:
I'm coming out of the gate way too early with this one (just finished the prelude), and it's probably no good.
Any chance at ALL that Quick Ben could be, in some way, Gallan?
]
The latter being a subtle jab at the reader "If you think you're going to find a fast, easy explanation for who Quick is, think again."
It's thin, I know. Only other nod I'd give to this theory is the possibility that Gallan being one of Quick's souls would explain a lot of the "how" of Fisher finding Gallan and wanting to hear the tale.
Any chance at ALL that Quick Ben could be, in some way, Gallan?
]
The latter being a subtle jab at the reader "If you think you're going to find a fast, easy explanation for who Quick is, think again."
It's thin, I know. Only other nod I'd give to this theory is the possibility that Gallan being one of Quick's souls would explain a lot of the "how" of Fisher finding Gallan and wanting to hear the tale.
I made a joke about that in another thread, but it got me thinking of the possibility. I just can't see SE making it that easy.
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#28
Skywalker
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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:09 PM
I have a feeling that Arathan is Edgewalker. Nothing to substantiate it - but there is a tremor in the force
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#30
Ceda Cicero
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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:29 PM
Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 12 August 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:
Old man strikes me as favorite for Edgewalker.
RE QB and Gallan it seems to easy to mee. If thats the case SE wouldnt put it in the prologue would he?
RE QB and Gallan it seems to easy to mee. If thats the case SE wouldnt put it in the prologue would he?
I mean it's far from neon signs with arrows making the connection. If anything it's a massive stretch, I'd think.
Illuyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:
How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?
#32
waylander001
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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:46 PM
Raker, on 12 August 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:
Arathan is Tayschrenn - the guy who survived in Vitr must be at least half-Azathanai.
And he has used similar name in the past (MoI).
And he has used similar name in the past (MoI).
And has now come full circle as T'renn - yeah I had the same thought myself mate
This post has been edited by waylander001: 12 August 2012 - 10:54 PM
There were clouds closed fast round the moon. And one by one, gardens died .....
#34
tiam
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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:33 AM
Im unsure an ancient azathanai would lose a power struggle to become high priest on kartool. Also wouldnt nightchill as an azathanai recognise him for what he was. Its possible but we see too much of tay in the main arc and ices books for him to be an azathanai. I mean some people are unconvinved by the appearance of brood in this time but having tay wouldnt be practical. Also the azathanai arent immune to the vitr are they? Its said they have vessels capable of containing it but cant manipulate it. Isnt it mentioned that 2 azathanai set out to explore the vitr?
#35
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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:01 AM
I think those of you using the word retcon might be a little confused as to what it means.
So far the only retcon i've seen (unless we lack some info) is T'riss in FoD in contrast to the human ascendant T'riss suplanting Ardatha.
So far the only retcon i've seen (unless we lack some info) is T'riss in FoD in contrast to the human ascendant T'riss suplanting Ardatha.
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#36
blackzoid
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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:01 AM
I'm afraid I can't agree. I believe Caladan Brood ,as I have said, is a retconn. Everyone makes a great deal of drama in MoI about Keruli actually being an elder God, but now Brood is one too. For someone who we once thought was basically just Burn's Mortal Sword. And as I have mentioned Caladan Brood thought Silverfox's idea to kill all the Jaghut in MoI was admirable "And you find in this woman an Abomination" when Kallor doesn't agree. Yet this new Brood is around during the time when the Jaghut were ,mostly, fine people. So he knew it was wrong, but decides to not speak out anyway.
I've got the feeling that SE originally had (during the 10 book cycle) that Rake meet Brood ages after the Tiste invasion. Than he decided to show it much earlier in this book. However, it now makes Brood in MoI look like a complete prick to the Jaghut. And it was a stretch to see a human Ascendent bothering to be a Warlord, but that could be explained away as him fighting with his own people, the Barghast. But an Elder God leading armies? A bit lop-sidded and odd. And I guess the Barghast angle was always incorrect than? Cos there are no Barghast yet.
I also have the nasty feeling that Rake will kill Draconus in the book 3 climax. Before the Tiste invasion. Ages before Draconus curses Kallor and before the Crippled God even arrives. I hope I'm wrong.
I've got the feeling that SE originally had (during the 10 book cycle) that Rake meet Brood ages after the Tiste invasion. Than he decided to show it much earlier in this book. However, it now makes Brood in MoI look like a complete prick to the Jaghut. And it was a stretch to see a human Ascendent bothering to be a Warlord, but that could be explained away as him fighting with his own people, the Barghast. But an Elder God leading armies? A bit lop-sidded and odd. And I guess the Barghast angle was always incorrect than? Cos there are no Barghast yet.
I also have the nasty feeling that Rake will kill Draconus in the book 3 climax. Before the Tiste invasion. Ages before Draconus curses Kallor and before the Crippled God even arrives. I hope I'm wrong.
This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 August 2012 - 09:04 AM
#37
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Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:12 AM
Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 13 August 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:
Im unsure an ancient azathanai would lose a power struggle to become high priest on kartool. Also wouldnt nightchill as an azathanai recognise him for what he was. Its possible but we see too much of tay in the main arc and ices books for him to be an azathanai. I mean some people are unconvinved by the appearance of brood in this time but having tay wouldnt be practical. Also the azathanai arent immune to the vitr are they? Its said they have vessels capable of containing it but cant manipulate it. Isnt it mentioned that 2 azathanai set out to explore the vitr?
Yes, it's mentioned in the convo between Old Man and Draconus. The two Azathanai were the Sister of Dreams (T'riss) who then became the Queen Of Dreams later (I think) and Ardata.
#39
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:13 PM
blackzoid, on 13 August 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:
I'm afraid I can't agree. I believe Caladan Brood ,as I have said, is a retconn. Everyone makes a great deal of drama in MoI about Keruli actually being an elder God, but now Brood is one too. For someone who we once thought was basically just Burn's Mortal Sword. And as I have mentioned Caladan Brood thought Silverfox's idea to kill all the Jaghut in MoI was admirable "And you find in this woman an Abomination" when Kallor doesn't agree. Yet this new Brood is around during the time when the Jaghut were ,mostly, fine people. So he knew it was wrong, but decides to not speak out anyway.
I've got the feeling that SE originally had (during the 10 book cycle) that Rake meet Brood ages after the Tiste invasion. Than he decided to show it much earlier in this book. However, it now makes Brood in MoI look like a complete prick to the Jaghut. And it was a stretch to see a human Ascendent bothering to be a Warlord, but that could be explained away as him fighting with his own people, the Barghast. But an Elder God leading armies? A bit lop-sidded and odd. And I guess the Barghast angle was always incorrect than? Cos there are no Barghast yet.
I also have the nasty feeling that Rake will kill Draconus in the book 3 climax. Before the Tiste invasion. Ages before Draconus curses Kallor and before the Crippled God even arrives. I hope I'm wrong.
I've got the feeling that SE originally had (during the 10 book cycle) that Rake meet Brood ages after the Tiste invasion. Than he decided to show it much earlier in this book. However, it now makes Brood in MoI look like a complete prick to the Jaghut. And it was a stretch to see a human Ascendent bothering to be a Warlord, but that could be explained away as him fighting with his own people, the Barghast. But an Elder God leading armies? A bit lop-sidded and odd. And I guess the Barghast angle was always incorrect than? Cos there are no Barghast yet.
I also have the nasty feeling that Rake will kill Draconus in the book 3 climax. Before the Tiste invasion. Ages before Draconus curses Kallor and before the Crippled God even arrives. I hope I'm wrong.
Ok, so at this point the Jaghut have "recently" split up their civilization and started living alone. Caladan Brood is around and knows they aren't that bad... but then he lives for a few hundred thousand years and sees how Jaghut have enslaved "lesser" creatures over and over again... so his opinion of them changes?
Considering Gothos' connection to the Azath, he might even have done something to piss Brood off.
And btw, there's nothing that says Brood is an Elder God. Sure, he is of the same "race" as some characters we know to be Elder Gods, but I mean, Fiddler is human and so was Kellanved, that hardly makes Fiddler an Ascendant? For the same reasons, Brood doesn't have to be an Elder God.
He's an Azathanai and some Azathanai we know became Elder Gods... doesn't say anything about whether he came one or not.
As for the Barghast angle... it could very well be that Brood changed his appearance to that of a Barghast in order to fit in better and "hide" his entity. We know that Azathanai can take on any form they want so it very well might be.
#40
blackzoid
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:24 PM
Brood is the only Azathanai who was not mentioned as an Elder God in the 10 book cycle. Sesing as everyone else was Elder gods, it does strike me that the idea is that Azathani = eventual possible Elder God. I'm not that pushed if he remains just an Ascendent rather than actual Elder God though. Not like the Jaghut issue irks me (which now transfoms Brood into someone I don't respect):
"Ok, so at this point the Jaghut have "recently" split up their civilization and started living alone. Caladan Brood is around and knows they aren't that bad... but then he lives for a few hundred thousand years and sees how Jaghut have enslaved "lesser" creatures over and over again... so his opinion of them changes?"
Not all of them, or even most of them. The vast majority were decent people. We know that, Kallor knows that, old MoI era Brood can be forgiven for ignorance as I assumed he wasn't around during that time and Rake had not brought him up to speed. And he probably ignored Kallor as untrustworthy anyway. But given what he actually now knows thanks to his "aging up", he than refused to condemn genoicde towards a people whom he knew in the vast majority of cases were fine and not Tyrants. Its like killing all the humans because of Kallor's actions. The Imass were hurt/abused themselves and were not thinking rationally. I can excuse that to an extant. That includes components of Silverfox. Whats Broods excuse circa MoI? He now doesn't have one.
"Ok, so at this point the Jaghut have "recently" split up their civilization and started living alone. Caladan Brood is around and knows they aren't that bad... but then he lives for a few hundred thousand years and sees how Jaghut have enslaved "lesser" creatures over and over again... so his opinion of them changes?"
Not all of them, or even most of them. The vast majority were decent people. We know that, Kallor knows that, old MoI era Brood can be forgiven for ignorance as I assumed he wasn't around during that time and Rake had not brought him up to speed. And he probably ignored Kallor as untrustworthy anyway. But given what he actually now knows thanks to his "aging up", he than refused to condemn genoicde towards a people whom he knew in the vast majority of cases were fine and not Tyrants. Its like killing all the humans because of Kallor's actions. The Imass were hurt/abused themselves and were not thinking rationally. I can excuse that to an extant. That includes components of Silverfox. Whats Broods excuse circa MoI? He now doesn't have one.
This post has been edited by blackzoid: 14 August 2012 - 02:34 PM
