[tiam]

The azathanai are those that were not born yet some of them were like Errastas and Sech. Also if they can change there appearance then surely they could all become Kily sized wrecking machines. Also Grizzin Farl is described as a Thel Akai half blood when he first appears, which is possible but he also said that he could transform into a butterfly. Admittedly its one of the borderswords who calls him the Thel Akai half blood but if those that are half azathanai can transform why doesnt Arathan do it.

Who do we think Kily lost to when she was fighting by Varadas house?

[Cyclorrhapha]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 14 August 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

The azathanai are those that were not born yet some of them were like Errastas and Sech. Also if they can change there appearance then surely they could all become Kily sized wrecking machines. Also Grizzin Farl is described as a Thel Akai half blood when he first appears, which is possible but he also said that he could transform into a butterfly. Admittedly its one of the borderswords who calls him the Thel Akai half blood but if those that are half azathanai can transform why doesnt Arathan do it.

Who do we think Kily lost to when she was fighting by Varadas house?

Don't think she actually lost to anyone, just that she was venting her frustration by pummeling the ground and nearby abandoned Jaghut towers after her conversation with Draconus. Could be I'm totally off though as I've speed read the book and have yet to reread it. I'm more interested in why we've only heard mention of Grizzin Farl in MBoTF and have had no appearances of his prior to this trilogy. Even if he does end up devoured by an Azath in a future Kharkanas book shouldn't he have managed to escape or outlive it as some other elder gods/ascendants have done?

Or maybe he shapeshifted into something and outright ignored all of the convergences of power during the events of the 10 Malazan books, sort of doubt that though.

[Puck]

Frankly, I have no issue with Caladan Brood being an Azathanai. We see often enough in the main series and especially now I FoD, how they can be as wayward in their opinions as humans and any other creature can be, and thousands of years of existence can change one's opinions and outlook quite a lot, I imagine.

Actually, I've yet to find anything in this book that I see as absolutely inconsistent with the main series.

That said, I have a theory about Kallor.. I never bought into the 'evilz king' thing completely, and hearing how there is supposed to be a good and benign Highking somewhere over the sea where no one else goes as of FoD.. Well, Errastas does voice the wish to fuck off and hide from those hunting him, and to go to the afomentioned land.. I can quite well imagine him showing up and being his charming self and fucking up things in the so called Highking's land. Doesn't mean things are all peachy there, but makes sense as to why things would suddenly go down the drain so much.

And another thing: Delat is QB's family name, and he bears it from birth, as does his sister. Just wanted to throw that out there.

[tiam]

Cyclorrharpha, on 14 August 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 14 August 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

The azathanai are those that were not born yet some of them were like Errastas and Sech. Also if they can change there appearance then surely they could all become Kily sized wrecking machines. Also Grizzin Farl is described as a Thel Akai half blood when he first appears, which is possible but he also said that he could transform into a butterfly. Admittedly its one of the borderswords who calls him the Thel Akai half blood but if those that are half azathanai can transform why doesnt Arathan do it.

Who do we think Kily lost to when she was fighting by Varadas house?

Don't think she actually lost to anyone, just that she was venting her frustration by pummeling the ground and nearby abandoned Jaghut towers after her conversation with Draconus. Could be I'm totally off though as I've speed read the book and have yet to reread it. I'm more interested in why we've only heard mention of Grizzin Farl in MBoTF and have had no appearances of his prior to this trilogy. Even if he does end up devoured by an Azath in a future Kharkanas book shouldn't he have managed to escape or outlive it as some other elder gods/ascendants have done?

Or maybe he shapeshifted into something and outright ignored all of the convergences of power during the events of the 10 Malazan books, sort of doubt that though.

I thought she was definitely fighting someone before that. AFter Draconus starts dishing out news then she goes to vent her temper. However before that Haut squares off with her and sends her on her way after she was defeated IIRC which I might not. A reread of this book is difficult and despite being a better book than OST I still found OST an easier reread.

In regards to Grizzin Farl he becomes an EG though does vanish. Thats the only mention we get of him in BH when there is a mosaic unearthed showing the worship of EG being especially bloody and there is speculation about who it could be and Grizzins name comes up. Its a rough guess by QB I think so while GF became an EG in a bloodworship sense I dont think we can use it as evidence of him surviving into the Kallorian Empire.

Puck, on 14 August 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Frankly, I have no issue with Caladan Brood being an Azathanai. We see often enough in the main series and especially now I FoD, how they can be as wayward in their opinions as humans and any other creature can be, and thousands of years of existence can change one's opinions and outlook quite a lot, I imagine.

Actually, I've yet to find anything in this book that I see as absolutely inconsistent with the main series.

That said, I have a theory about Kallor.. I never bought into the 'evilz king' thing completely, and hearing how there is supposed to be a good and benign Highking somewhere over the sea where no one else goes as of FoD.. Well, Errastas does voice the wish to fuck off and hide from those hunting him, and to go to the afomentioned land.. I can quite well imagine him showing up and being his charming self and fucking up things in the so called Highking's land. Doesn't mean things are all peachy there, but makes sense as to why things would suddenly go down the drain so much.

And another thing: Delat is QB's family name, and he bears it from birth, as does his sister. Just wanted to throw that out there.

I really hope Kallor isnt around and theres no reason for him to be really. The 100 000 years before the main arc still gives him plenty of time to have had empires rise and fall. Weve had a good in depth POV from him so for him to turn out to be an Azathanai would annoy me.

Regarding Brood it does annoy me he is an Azathanai and I do think its a retcon as Blackzoid claims. However Blackzoids reasoning, Broods neutrality towards the Jaghut in MOI in relation to his knowledge in FOD can easily be explained away as a changinjg of opinions after a few Tyrants rose as others have mentioned.

The problem lies in my mind of why he is commanding armies. An EG of extraordinary power commanding a middling sized mortal army. We know power draws power, the main example being ST and Cots not wanting such a thing to happen to the Malazan Empire, so how can an immortal behemoth simply command without risking the ire of ascendents destroying his forces. The only reason I can think of is that hes friendly with alot of the major powers on Genabackis (Rake Envy QOD (who acts everywhere) and others) and this protects him like when they were a wandering group. I actually think Brood began to lead the army because of Rake and the bond we see forged at the house of Andarist which isnt too far fetched.

A much bigger annoyance to me is the Ardatha- QOD relationship with one being supplanted by the other. It made alot of sense in the main arc, Ardatha was the Enchantress but was supplanted by Triss, who is described as the greatest sorceress of her age, in a similar way to Tays is described. Yet now we see they are both Azathanai which to me is much worse than Brood.

[S Ruin]

Moan moan moan, I don't like this and I don't like that. Anytime you start a thread it's to moan about how you don't like this or that about erikson. I know everybody is entitled to their opinion and all but for the love of god try to be objective and not always so subjective. Does my head in

[Puck]

S Ruin, on 14 August 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Moan moan moan, I don't like this and I don't like that. Anytime you start a thread it's to moan about how you don't like this or that about erikson. I know everybody is entitled to their opinion and all but for the love of god try to be objective and not always so subjective. Does my head in

Nice someone finally points that out. Opinion this and that, but you've been getting increasingly miserable, tiam. If that's what rereads do to you, you might want to stay clear of them for a while.

That said, being an EG does not neccessariry mean you command extraordinary power.. Look at Kilmandaros, Sechul Lath, the Errant, K'rul.. Then look at Mael who amuses himself by pretending to be a mortal manservant and only has the extent of power he does have due to still being worshipped; not that he likes the direction his worshippers are whipping him into. I doubt Brood ever was an EG, actually. Look at Edgewalker. He's probably an Azathanai, too, but not a god.

This post has been edited by Puck: 14 August 2012 - 10:14 PM

[joshbhoy]

Now that ive finished FOG im picking up my re-read again.

Im on TBH just now and came across a bit of dialogue when Paran is talking to Ghost Hedge as they are about to cross the bridge with the Trygalle Guild.

"All right, we'll start with this. Ascendants who find worshipers become gods, and that binding goes both ways. Ascendants without worshippers are, in a sense , unchained. Unaligned, in the language of the Deck of Dragons. Now, Gods who one had worshippers but don't have them any more are still ascendant, but effectively emasculated, and they remain so unless the worship is somehow renewed."


I took this to mean that Brood as we see is an Azathani who could just not have gathered enough followers to become an actual god, so he decided to to do his thing with Burn.


Alternately Brood being a warlord could be a step towards gathering followers in his dastardly plan to achieve Godhood. Hows that for a crazy theory!

[Cyclorrhapha]

@ Jean-Claude Van tiam : If I recall correctly it was during a conversation between Varandas and Korya that Kilmandaros, as I see it, went on her rampage. Which in turn lead her to their tower and her confrontation with Haut.

Feeling tremors of her fury and the shaking of earth they were lead to believe that two elder powers were warring when it's actually a lone Killy in PMS doing some damage to the terrain with her fists in an unleashing of power that manifested itself as a storm. If she had actually fought and lost a fist fight with another Azathanai I take it she'd be described as being bloody/ruffed up when she first encountered D. and Arathan. Then again could be I've miscomprehended so I can't 100% back up my take on this till i do a reread.

joshbhoy, on 15 August 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Now that ive finished FOG im picking up my re-read again.

Im on TBH just now and came across a bit of dialogue when Paran is talking to Ghost Hedge as they are about to cross the bridge with the Trygalle Guild.

"All right, we'll start with this. Ascendants who find worshipers become gods, and that binding goes both ways. Ascendants without worshippers are, in a sense , unchained. Unaligned, in the language of the Deck of Dragons. Now, Gods who one had worshippers but don't have them any more are still ascendant, but effectively emasculated, and they remain so unless the worship is somehow renewed."

I took this to mean that Brood as we see is an Azathani who could just not have gathered enough followers to become an actual god, so he decided to to do his thing with Burn.

Alternately Brood being a warlord could be a step towards gathering followers in his dastardly plan to achieve Godhood. Hows that for a crazy theory!

Brood did not strike me as an ascendant bent on achieving god status, he lead armies so as to stop power hungry empires from expansion and world conquest. Unsure as to why some people here have a problem with or see it as odd of him becoming a warlord. The Azathanai ,or at least some of them, are portrayed as meddlers in mortal affairs.

If for example the Errant and other Elders can manipulate the events that transpired in Lether , then why can't Brood take a more direct approach in whatever it is he set out to do?

[Morgoth]

I agree that it would hardly be strange if Brood for whatever reason had dedicated his life to protecting people by acting as a warlord. It's hardly any different from what Draconus is doing.

All the same, Brood being an Azathanai feels... wrong. I don't know why exactly. Might be I'm simply a little conservative.

When that is said, Broods origins are hardly important in the great scheme of things.

[blackzoid]

I am basically worried that the Elder days may now dip into the "Middle period" of the history of the planet.

By Middle period I mean

Human First Empire
Kallor Empire
Arrival of the Crippled God
When I assumed Brood first met Rake
When T'riss was assumed to first ascend to godhood.

That includes things like the cursing of Kallor by Draconus which means that Rake can only kill Draconus after that period, though I am now sure that will be a MoI'ism.

While it might seem like moaning, if everything happens in the Kharkanas trilogy within a few years, and everything happens in the MboTF within a few years, than theres a whole range of hundres of thousands of years where nothing as much happens. The world loses some of its richness of history.

[Moss]

Regarding QB, it is strongly hinted that he has atleast a connection to the Azathanai, or Draconus himself. We learn that the elemental power that dwells in the three sisters and Arathan is awakened during a near death experience. That in mind, QB constantly states after TBH that something changed in him after his encounter with Icarium. He goes from a highly talented, but mediocore powerfull squad mage to a multiple dragon slaying badass in no time.

[champ]

Moss, on 15 August 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Regarding QB, it is strongly hinted that he has atleast a connection to the Azathanai, or Draconus himself. We learn that the elemental power that dwells in the three sisters and Arathan is awakened during a near death experience. That in mind, QB constantly states after TBH that something changed in him after his encounter with Icarium. He goes from a highly talented, but mediocore powerfull squad mage to a multiple dragon slaying badass in no time.

Plus Draconus praises Arathan for his mind/wits which is what we know and love QB for...

But on the other hand I was thinking about the comments in the main series how QB has long/femine hands and the Korya Delat(h) name!

Then there is the Gallan comment about wearing faces...

Safe to say SE is going to keep us guessing!

[Puck]

There's also the fact that at least QB's body is, well, 'new', as in not much older than he appears to be, as we know from his sister's memories. Interesting is that he seems to have been born with some subconscious knowledge, as at a young age he already used dolls to cause his family/clan members nightmares. Totally thinking about Korya and her dolls here. There's got be a connection between her and QB and it's one that does not come from any of the sould QB acquiered later.

Need to reread the Spar of Andii part in tCG and see what he babbles about mother and father and stuff.. Maybe he's got the soul of Korya and Arathan's child or something.

Also, QB didn't slay the dragons in RG, they killed each other. QB basically set up the scene and threw a rockslide at them, which he already was capable of in MoI.

This post has been edited by Puck: 15 August 2012 - 11:34 AM

[champ]

Puck, on 15 August 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Need to reread the Spar of Andii part in tCG and see what he babbles about mother and father and stuff.. Maybe he's got the soul of Korya and Arathan's child or something.

Quote

After a moment his breath caught and he half turned. When he spoke his tone was apologetic. ‘Ah,
Mother, it’s old blood, I don’t deny it. Old and thin.’ He hesitated, and then said, ‘Tell Father I make no
apologies for my choice – why should I? No matter. The two of us did the best I could.’ He grunted in
humour. ‘And you might say the same thing.’
He turned back.
Darkness was knotting into something solid before him. He watched it for a time, saying nothing,
although her presence was palpable, vast in the gloom behind him. ‘If he’d wanted blind obedience, he
should have kept me chained. And you, Mother, you should have kept me a child for ever, there under
your wing.’ He sighed, somewhat shakily. ‘We’re still here, but then, we did what you both wanted. We
almost got them all. The one thing none of us expected was how it would change us.’ He glanced back
again, momentarily. ‘And it has.’
Within the circle before him, the dark form opened crimson eyes. Hoofs cracked like iron axe-blades
on the stone.
He grasped the apparition’s midnight mane and swung on to the beast’s back. ‘’Ware your child,
Mother.’ He drew the horse round, walked it along the ledge a few strides and then back to the mouth of
the tunnel. ‘I’ve been among them for so long now, what you gave me is the barest whisper in the back of
my soul. You offered scant regard for humans, and now it’s all coming down. But I give you this.’ He
swung the horse round. ‘Now it’s our turn. Your son opened the way. And as for his son, well, if he wants
the Sceptre, he’ll have to come and take it.’
Ben Adaephon Delat tightened his grip on the horse’s mane. ‘You do your part, Mother. Let Father
do his, if he’s of a mind to. But it comes down to us. So stand back. Shield your eyes, because I swear to
you, we will blaze! When our backs are against the wall, Mother, you have no idea what we can do.’
He drove his heels into the horse’s flanks. The creature surged forward.
Now, sweet haunt, this could get a little hairy.
The horse reached the ledge. Then out, into the air. And down, plunging into the seething maelstrom.
The presence, breathing darkness, remained in the vast chamber for a time longer. The strewn
scatter of coins and baubles glittered on the black stone.
Then came a tapping of a cane upon rock.

[Puck]

Another random thought: Arathan ends up among the Jaghut, the Jaghut are supposed to have something to do with the Stormriders, there's a connections between the Stormriders and Ruthan Gudd, Arathan is the son of Draconus, whose aspect seems to be both night and cold -> Arathan is Ruthan Gudd [not a new thought, of course, but the connections are so.. there]

This post has been edited by Puck: 15 August 2012 - 12:47 PM

[Cyclorrhapha]

Totally sound theories regarding QB and Ruthan Gudd. I wonder though about the future offspring of Arathan and Feren, what role if any is she going to play in the grand scheme of things?

Guess it's too early to speculate but I wager a future confrontation between Arathan and her is imminent.

Also any thoughts on Arathans mother? I'd say it's Mother Dark pre her ascension but could be someone else just as easily.

[Kurald Bolognese]

Cyclorrharpha, on 14 August 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

I'm more interested in why we've only heard mention of Grizzin Farl in MBoTF and have had no appearances of his prior to this trilogy. Even if he does end up devoured by an Azath in a future Kharkanas book shouldn't he have managed to escape or outlive it as some other elder gods/ascendants have done?

Or maybe he shapeshifted into something and outright ignored all of the convergences of power during the events of the 10 Malazan books, sort of doubt that though.

Grizzin Farl reminded me of Kruppe...

blackzoid, on 15 August 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

I am basically worried that the Elder days may now dip into the "Middle period" of the history of the planet.

By Middle period I mean

Human First Empire
Kallor Empire
Arrival of the Crippled God
When I assumed Brood first met Rake
When T'riss was assumed to first ascend to godhood.

That includes things like the cursing of Kallor by Draconus which means that Rake can only kill Draconus after that period, though I am now sure that will be a MoI'ism.

While it might seem like moaning, if everything happens in the Kharkanas trilogy within a few years, and everything happens in the MboTF within a few years, than theres a whole range of hundres of thousands of years where nothing as much happens. The world loses some of its richness of history.

It seems fair to say the timeline is really more of a t'imeline at this point!

[IgnatiusKruppe]

Quoth the prologue..

" so you have found me and would know the tale. When a poet speaks of truth to another poet, what hope has truth? Let me ask this, then. Does one find memory in invention? Or will you find invention in memory? Which bows in servitude before the other? Will the measure of greatness be weighed solely in the details? Perhaps so, if details make up the full weft of the world, if themes are nothing more than the composite of lists perfectly ordered and unerringly rendered; and if I should kneel before invention, as if it were memory made perfect.
Do I look like a man who would kneel?
There are no singular tales. Nothing that stands alone is worth looking at. You and me, we know this. We could fill a thousand scrolls recounting the lives of those who believe they are each both beginning and end, those who fit the totality of the universe into small wooden boxes which they then tuck under one arm – you have seen them marching past, I’m sure. They have somewhere to go, and wherever that place is, why, it needs them, and failing their dramatic arrival it would surely cease to exist.
Is my laughter cynical? Derisive? Do I sigh and remind myself yet again that truths are like seeds hidden in the ground, and should you tend to them who may say what wild life will spring into view? Prediction is folly, belligerent assertion pathetic. But all such arguments are past us now. If we ever spat them out it was long ago, in another age, when we both were younger than we thought we were."

[IgnatiusKruppe]

"I am basically worried that the Elder days may now dip into the "Middle period" of the history of the planet."


Which kind of makes sense, since there have been various mentions of there being a wandering before the holds.


I always thought of these "elder gods" as being too concerned with reality to be the eldest forces imaginable.




In general, it's nice to see Azathanai being a thing..I remember searching for it after reading one of the original books and being baffled that I couldn't find anything about it. Now i think I may have just left out the last "A"

[Urizen]

Cyclorrharpha, on 15 August 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Totally sound theories regarding QB and Ruthan Gudd. I wonder though about the future offspring of Arathan and Feren, what role if any is she going to play in the grand scheme of things?

Also any thoughts on Arathans mother? I'd say it's Mother Dark pre her ascension but could be someone else just as easily.

Didn't Feren get killed when the Boarderswords attacked Draconus' place?

I'm with you on Mother Dark pre ascention as Arathan's mother.