[Sandalath]

As Morgoth as already said in regard to a different topic 300,000 years is a long time for Kallor to change his opinion of Jaghut in general. I'm not surprised he raised no objections.

Although to be honest I have very few recollections of what happened with silverfox as it has been about 6 or seven years since I read it. I seem to remember him having a few wars Jaghut Tyrants.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 10 August 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 10 August 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

In response to QT, this is not a spoiler but I'll put it in tags anyway

Spoiler

Didn't Rake wield Vengeance before Dragnipur? The sword that Dassem later used and renamed Greif?

Spoiler

Ah, indeed. So that could indeed be it...but was Vengeance imbued with Darkness?

While the scene was a bit chaotic, it appeared that no, V/G was never Darnified. The Hust officer told Lord Hust it was just to pacify him.

helgi, on 11 August 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Just a short comment regarding size... I don't think the Tiste population at this point in time was huge.

Thousands but not millions.
I suspect that a race that lives thousands of years with a low birthrate isn't going to hit millions.

Quote

I might be misremembering things, but I always felt that the Tiste population was pretty damn small and their armies weren't that large.

Draconus had gathered "a lot" of Houseblades. The Highborn were afraid he could even rival the legion... and he had 600 Houseblades as far as I know?

When the Borderswords attack House Dracons they are stunned to see that there are, iirc, 800, more than double what there were when Drac and co left at the start. The B'Swords still out numbered them but we all know how that turned out.

Skywalker, on 12 August 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

I'm only up to the beginning of Book 4 at this point, but had to get a crazy theory off my chest:

Spoiler

Arathan is Edgewalker

Whaddaya think?

I'm going w Grizzin as Edgewalker.

Moss, on 13 August 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Spoiler

Am I the only one who is mad at the portrayal of Draconus' daughters? All 3 are purly evil bitches. The part where they try to kill the household of House Dracons really bothered me. I never imagined Spite or Envy that sadistic in the former books. They were selfish, bitchy, but never unnecessarily cruel, which made them sort of likably. Maybe they change in a hundred thousand years, but the point that they're that evil as kids indicates a born in character flaw.

You haven't read OST yet, have you?
The characterization fits just fine. and in any event bear in mind people can change in a few hundred thousand years.

Aptorius, on 13 August 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Spoiler

Okay, Orfantal and Sukul are actually Dragons. This is the only explanation.Segwaying here, I wonder if Legyl will change her name to Korlat later? Otherwise I am curious where Korlat is at this point in the books

Korlat: Not born yet. Certain events referred to in DoD and TCG have yet to happen.

Morgoth, on 13 August 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 13 August 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Spoiler

But this is Eriksons writing we are talking about here. Everyone is foil for his observations of the world. This is universe where everyone from soldiers, to dock workers, to fucking oxen has the observational talents of Sherlock Holmes, the analytical skills of Sigmund Freud and Philosophical depth of Plato. Nobody thinks like average human beings in these books. Even a toddler probably spends its time in the Crib contemplating the meaning of its existence, worshipping its own poo and shaking a tiny fist at the elitist wind chimes hanging over its head.

Spoiler

And I'd not have had a problem with it if a kid of a similar age in the VERY NEXT CHAPTER hadn't spoken like a kid. It was incongruous because of that, otherwise I'd have let it slide.

Remember that this entire story is told by Gallan, who readily admits in the prologue to the use of some artistic flourish.

Mentioned else thread, i had this issue with the book as well. There were few scenes, if any, that were 'simply' action to advance the story. It seemed like every segment however minor, included observations on life, the universe and everything, and at a certain point it became too much.

[Abyss]

Ceda Cicero, on 13 August 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 August 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 13 August 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 13 August 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Spoiler

But this is Eriksons writing we are talking about here. Everyone is foil for his observations of the world. This is universe where everyone from soldiers, to dock workers, to fucking oxen has the observational talents of Sherlock Holmes, the analytical skills of Sigmund Freud and Philosophical depth of Plato. Nobody thinks like average human beings in these books. Even a toddler probably spends its time in the Crib contemplating the meaning of its existence, worshipping its own poo and shaking a tiny fist at the elitist wind chimes hanging over its head.

Spoiler

And I'd not have had a problem with it if a kid of a similar age in the VERY NEXT CHAPTER hadn't spoken like a kid. It was incongruous because of that, otherwise I'd have let it slide.

Remember that this entire story is told by Gallan, who readily admits in the prologue to the use of some artistic flourish.

Huh, I'd forgotten that he said that (though I recall noting it and thinking "Unreliable narrator, gotcha."). A very good point.

I mean, the point about Gallan and the prelude is the most salient here.

I'm not saying it's a waste of time or an valueless exercise to question things, note inconsistencies, and try to iron them out as best you can (ie Brood, T'riss, etc.) What I will say is that SE has made it pretty clear (the prelude to FoD was, I think, the most blatant instance of this) that the inconsistencies are going to be there, and frankly, he doesn't give a fuck. The question ultimately becomes whether you can stomach that or not.

For my part, I found myself, for whatever reason, way less willing to stomach them now, with a new trilogy, than I was when I was in the grip of MBotF, even though I'm fully aware that if I could— and just get over them, and appreciate all of SE's remarkable strengths and what it is he's trying to do, the same way I did with MBotF—it would be vastly rewarding.

Maybe it's just because it's a new series, or maybe because I'd pinned too much expectation on this trilogy being a kind of "herein lie answers" trilogy.

There are answers, but there are also more questions.
It's hard to overlook that although FoD takes place millenia before MBF, the world we're seeing has already been around for a long long time... Jaghut civilization has come and gone, the Jheck split into jheck and Jheleckan, there's a Tiste legend involving Tiste heroes killing Tiam, the Eres'al have come and gone (sort of).... what we're seeing now, disregarding the filter provided by Gallan, is being influenced by as much history behind and yet to come.

My brainz hurt.

QuickTidal, on 14 August 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Iamme, on 14 August 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

There are Gods and then there are Gods in waiting. A god needs worshipers. A god needs to claim his/her position. Just existing doesn't make you one.

Yeah, that whole conversation was a bit of a convoluted mess wasn't it? It also makes the water the gods exist in a rather weak tea to me...

I like the suggestion that gods evolve and don't just spring into existance.

Puck, on 17 August 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

I have a question: where does it say that Nightchill and Korlat are two manifestations of the Sister of Cold Nights? I see you mentioning this for the second time now and aside from Korlat taking on the Andii title of 'Sister of Night' or something like that at the end of tCG I can't remember any connection.

littlemissmetal, on 17 August 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

It's possibly my interpretation that's askew, but she offers to be Sister of Night(s) and then I think it's Nimander gives the full title "Sister of Cold Nights" – it seemed a bit too glaring to be a mistake so I assumed the titles are meant to be interpreted as one and the same.

EDIT: After some reading around, I'm not so sure. Sister of Night is a role in the royal house of the Shake. I'm sure Nimander uses the entire phrase "Sister of Cold Nights" though. Argh!

Nightchill was also known as Sister of Cold Nights.
Nimander gives Korlat that same title.
Other than an historical link, we don't know much.

[kennes79]

The mistakes in chronology/details and possible retcons between volumes doesnt bother me. I would much rather have Steves staggering output of material rather than him taking say 2 years between each volume [or 5-6 if you are GRRM!] If that were the case the MBotF wouldnt be done till 2020! I take what fits and when something doesnt fit I invent my own version of Malaz history to fix the problem.

Roll on Fall of Light! (I think?)

[Sanctume]

I just had to refer to this draconean tree: http://forum.malazan...topic=3588&st=0

[kcf]

Sanctume, on 11 September 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I just had to refer to this draconean tree: http://forum.malazan...topic=3588&st=0

Well, it looks like Baruk was rather wrong in his ascertians. Though I think that metaphorically, it's near-correct (the Purake brothers are the first sons of Mother Dark, but not the biological sons of her).

[Abyss]

kcf, on 11 September 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Sanctume, on 11 September 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I just had to refer to this draconean tree: http://forum.malazan...topic=3588&st=0

Well, it looks like Baruk was rather wrong in his ascertians. Though I think that metaphorically, it's near-correct (the Purake brothers are the first sons of Mother Dark, but not the biological sons of her).

FoD opens up the possibility that she had actual biological sons wandering around too tho. Possibly even by Draconus.

[Black Winged Lord]

Sanctume, on 11 September 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I just had to refer to this draconean tree: http://forum.malazan...topic=3588&st=0

After reading FoD it certainly puts a new spin on Phaed's personality if she is a daughter of Envy. Looking back on her now as she was in MoI its disconcerting, although i'm thinking a reread now after getting a better picture through this and OST might be enlightning.

[Morgoth]

Sanctume, on 11 September 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I just had to refer to this draconean tree: http://forum.malazan...topic=3588&st=0

Well, Chris -the guy who posted the tree- admitted to making a few changes simply to fuck with us.

[Defiance]

Just about halfway through it, finished the second part/book a few minutes ago.

Spoiler

Man, this book has been amazing so far. Sure, it hasn't been action heavy, but I don't think it's necessary. There's been some great political intrigue and the number of revelations have been amazing.

Sex! I think this is the first book where I've actually thought Erikson handled sex masterfully. Most of his romances in Malazan Book of the Fallen were kind of "meh" but these interactions actually seem to have substance to them.

My biggest question at this point is how does everything get divided up into warrens. The other Malazan books give the impression that, while warrens can border each other, they are actually all self-contained. As we've seen in Forge of Darkness, though, this isn't the case. Mother Dark is getting her Dark power from elsewhere, meaning that true dark, chaos, and all of that fun stuff are separate from the world. Shit, it hurts my head to even think about it.

Seeing the emergence of T'riss (I always thought she was a newer ascendant/goddess...guess I was wrong!) was really cool. I'm assuming the headless body from the Vitr was a K'Chain Che'Malle. Also, finding the dragon on the Vitr shore was really interesting. I'm guessing that in either the next or the third book the dragons will arrive. After all, since we're beginning to see how the Andii and Liosan came to be (skin colors! Ahhhh that shit blew my mind. Very cool), we're also going to have to see the formation and death of Tiam to give everyone their dragon Soletaken forms. That'll be fun. Still wondering exactly what the Vitr is, though. I'm glad that Erikson is going into it, as when it appeared in ICE's work I was kind of put off.

Urusander being Father Light was something I called right when we first saw him. Not hard considering Osserc was his son, but still. Very interesting how MD and FL aren't the creators of the universe that we've thought (and it makes perfect sense).

Tiste living with all the other races? Where the hell are they? Given that Burn is around it makes me wonder if this isn't actually taking place on the Malazan world and something later happens to separate everything.

Speaking of Burn, what's up with her? It's still pretty ambiguous as to why she dreams. Does she do it to keep the earth alive?

Dog-runners being the Imass was fun.

Azathanai...this just brings up a load of questions. Seems like a lot of gods have sprung out from their ranks. I'm wondering if we're ever going to get more information on the Azath (which have yet to make an appearance in this book, but I'd be surprised if they don't).

T'riss...what exactly did she do to make the Andii and the Liosan? What did she talk about with MD?

I know some people were complaining about Anomander and his brothers having a side role in this book, but it hasn't bothered me one bit. It was silly to think that they'd be the heart of this story, and I think it would have made the book rather bland. Erikson has succeeded in making these books not feel like prequels in the slightest, which is great.

Aaaahhhh...so many revelations. Tons of great questions. I can't wait to finish the book and start discussing things.

[Use Of Weapons]

Defiance, on 21 September 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Just about halfway through it, finished the second part/book a few minutes ago.

Spoiler

Man, this book has been amazing so far. Sure, it hasn't been action heavy, but I don't think it's necessary. There's been some great political intrigue and the number of revelations have been amazing.

Sex! I think this is the first book where I've actually thought Erikson handled sex masterfully. Most of his romances in Malazan Book of the Fallen were kind of "meh" but these interactions actually seem to have substance to them.

My biggest question at this point is how does everything get divided up into warrens. The other Malazan books give the impression that, while warrens can border each other, they are actually all self-contained. As we've seen in Forge of Darkness, though, this isn't the case. Mother Dark is getting her Dark power from elsewhere, meaning that true dark, chaos, and all of that fun stuff are separate from the world. Shit, it hurts my head to even think about it.

Seeing the emergence of T'riss (I always thought she was a newer ascendant/goddess...guess I was wrong!) was really cool. I'm assuming the headless body from the Vitr was a K'Chain Che'Malle. Also, finding the dragon on the Vitr shore was really interesting. I'm guessing that in either the next or the third book the dragons will arrive. After all, since we're beginning to see how the Andii and Liosan came to be (skin colors! Ahhhh that shit blew my mind. Very cool), we're also going to have to see the formation and death of Tiam to give everyone their dragon Soletaken forms. That'll be fun. Still wondering exactly what the Vitr is, though. I'm glad that Erikson is going into it, as when it appeared in ICE's work I was kind of put off.

Urusander being Father Light was something I called right when we first saw him. Not hard considering Osserc was his son, but still. Very interesting how MD and FL aren't the creators of the universe that we've thought (and it makes perfect sense).

Tiste living with all the other races? Where the hell are they? Given that Burn is around it makes me wonder if this isn't actually taking place on the Malazan world and something later happens to separate everything.

Speaking of Burn, what's up with her? It's still pretty ambiguous as to why she dreams. Does she do it to keep the earth alive?

Dog-runners being the Imass was fun.

Azathanai...this just brings up a load of questions. Seems like a lot of gods have sprung out from their ranks. I'm wondering if we're ever going to get more information on the Azath (which have yet to make an appearance in this book, but I'd be surprised if they don't).

T'riss...what exactly did she do to make the Andii and the Liosan? What did she talk about with MD?

I know some people were complaining about Anomander and his brothers having a side role in this book, but it hasn't bothered me one bit. It was silly to think that they'd be the heart of this story, and I think it would have made the book rather bland. Erikson has succeeded in making these books not feel like prequels in the slightest, which is great.

Aaaahhhh...so many revelations. Tons of great questions. I can't wait to finish the book and start discussing things.

Spoiler

I get the feeling that the prologue of MOI is a stonkingly-large clue as to how the warrens eventually end up divided from their presumed start point in FoD.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Use Of Weapons, on 21 September 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Defiance, on 21 September 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Just about halfway through it, finished the second part/book a few minutes ago.

Spoiler

Man, this book has been amazing so far. Sure, it hasn't been action heavy, but I don't think it's necessary. There's been some great political intrigue and the number of revelations have been amazing.

Sex! I think this is the first book where I've actually thought Erikson handled sex masterfully. Most of his romances in Malazan Book of the Fallen were kind of "meh" but these interactions actually seem to have substance to them.

My biggest question at this point is how does everything get divided up into warrens. The other Malazan books give the impression that, while warrens can border each other, they are actually all self-contained. As we've seen in Forge of Darkness, though, this isn't the case. Mother Dark is getting her Dark power from elsewhere, meaning that true dark, chaos, and all of that fun stuff are separate from the world. Shit, it hurts my head to even think about it.

Seeing the emergence of T'riss (I always thought she was a newer ascendant/goddess...guess I was wrong!) was really cool. I'm assuming the headless body from the Vitr was a K'Chain Che'Malle. Also, finding the dragon on the Vitr shore was really interesting. I'm guessing that in either the next or the third book the dragons will arrive. After all, since we're beginning to see how the Andii and Liosan came to be (skin colors! Ahhhh that shit blew my mind. Very cool), we're also going to have to see the formation and death of Tiam to give everyone their dragon Soletaken forms. That'll be fun. Still wondering exactly what the Vitr is, though. I'm glad that Erikson is going into it, as when it appeared in ICE's work I was kind of put off.

Urusander being Father Light was something I called right when we first saw him. Not hard considering Osserc was his son, but still. Very interesting how MD and FL aren't the creators of the universe that we've thought (and it makes perfect sense).

Tiste living with all the other races? Where the hell are they? Given that Burn is around it makes me wonder if this isn't actually taking place on the Malazan world and something later happens to separate everything.

Speaking of Burn, what's up with her? It's still pretty ambiguous as to why she dreams. Does she do it to keep the earth alive?

Dog-runners being the Imass was fun.

Azathanai...this just brings up a load of questions. Seems like a lot of gods have sprung out from their ranks. I'm wondering if we're ever going to get more information on the Azath (which have yet to make an appearance in this book, but I'd be surprised if they don't).

T'riss...what exactly did she do to make the Andii and the Liosan? What did she talk about with MD?

I know some people were complaining about Anomander and his brothers having a side role in this book, but it hasn't bothered me one bit. It was silly to think that they'd be the heart of this story, and I think it would have made the book rather bland. Erikson has succeeded in making these books not feel like prequels in the slightest, which is great.

Aaaahhhh...so many revelations. Tons of great questions. I can't wait to finish the book and start discussing things.

Spoiler

I get the feeling that the prologue of MOI is a stonkingly-large clue as to how the warrens eventually end up divided from their presumed start point in FoD.

despite not even appearing in the book, what k'rul is doing is what i want to know about the most. there are so many possibilities and implications to his actions. i just keep coming back to this quote (although im gonna have to paraphrase since i can't for the life of me recall which book it's in), "Understand, all that K'rul created was motivated by the love of possibility. the myriad, infinite strands of the future."

not even sure if i got the gist correctly, but i think, like the MoI prologue, that it is a huge clue as to how the world becomes the way it is in MBotF.

[Use Of Weapons]

It's entirely possible that we've been thinking of K'Rul wrongly. His title, 'Maker of Paths' seemed directly to relate to the warrens (Path of such-and-such). But what if it's more about shaping the route to the future?

[Use Of Weapons]

Of course, when I say 'we,' I of course mean 'I' :roll:

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

I love the way I successfully called the fact that Urusander is FL, in these forums, before the book was even published.

[Kanese S's]

Still reading.

Had to put the book down for a little bit after chapter 13. In a way I'm glad that even after everything I've read, this still disturbed me.

Spoiler

I mean, I had known that Envy and Spite (and Malice, once that character's existence was revealed) were going to be awful little brats... but I hadn't quite counted on them being so... terrifying, really. I knew from the Book of the Fallen series that Envy and Spite at least were quite ruthless, but holy crap. And since the hapless targets who are still alive haven't yet departed, I have an awful feeling about what might be coming...

Edit: .....Aaaaaand chapter 14 contains even more terrible things.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 24 September 2012 - 07:16 AM

[Ceda Cicero]

Speaking of terrible things (and Kanese S, I forget chapter numbers and events therein, so this may be what you were referring to in your previous post)...

Spoiler

So look, what happened in the scene where Wreneck goes back to Drukorlas house and sees the Legion soldiers, uh, molesting the maid and Nerys? Specifically I'm referring to the bit where, uh... one of the female soldiers, I guess, has her hand "up the tunic" of the maid and is "gripping the stallion" of one of her fellow soldiers?

What's the deal there? Am I missing something or does that easily make it into one of SE's top 5 most perverse scenes of all time?

[Kanese S's]

It's really best not to think about what she was doing.

Spoiler

That whole sequence of events... Envy and Spite going all murdery on everybody at Dracons Hold (and not being quite finished yet, if I'm guessing right), up through what happened to Enesdia... had me reeling. It was really tough to handle.

[Smuuve]

Morgoth, on 13 August 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 13 August 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

And theres the problem. We might as well not believe a single word about anything cosmological/timeline-wise/character-based in this trilogy. Gallan is SE's get-out. I think there is no point at all in trying to reconcile this trilogy with the 10 book cycle. It exists in an alternate universe. It can be enjoyed for itself (and I did enjoy many parts of it) but don't bother using it's facts to make sense with the 10 book cycle.

I see very little in FoD that doesn't fit well with what we've learned throughout MBotF. Might be the nature of T'riss (and yeah, I can see the Brood angle) but those are pretty insignificant.

When that is said, having an unreliable narrator is a pretty common literary tool, and only forces you to think a little more than if everything is told from the view of God.

This is just plain nonsense. Very little we can't square??? Name 1 thing you CAN square in this book without high powered construction equipment!! Do you work for TOR or SE or both?

This post has been edited by Smuuve: 26 September 2012 - 08:50 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

here's one that is no problem at all to square, i just never found a way to post about it.

why is brood an azathanai yet not an elder god? well, it's actually really simple.

Anomander Rake and Caladan Brood are bound. in one of the first scenes of the book, we find the reason for brood and rakes eons long partnership. the vows made over andarist's hearthstone. caladan admits that there is no precedence for what occurs there and has no idea how it will effect the two of them. seems obvious to me that the nature of their oaths leads to caladan never being able to have worshippers, since he and rake are already bound together in a blood relationship. no room for worshippers. everyone always talks about rake denying his worshippers, but he was a leader of his people while caladan was a solitary azathanai. by the time other azathanai are transitioning into elder gods with mortal worshippers, caladan has already been roped into this mono a mono with rake.

lets see... draconus' children seem to be completely unknown outside his household, so envy and spite being children while their supposed mother sheltatha lore is not much older is not all that strange if draconus later uses them to forge an alliance with sheltatha or her family. intervening millenia could also muddle things.

point is, many things we learn in the malazan book of the fallen about the mythos of the world is just that - myth. myth reflects reality, but it is almost never factually accurate.