Malazan Empire: My thoughts while reading FOD - Malazan Empire

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My thoughts while reading FOD No spoilers in here

#41 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:06 PM

View Postblackzoid, on 13 August 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

And theres the problem. We might as well not believe a single word about anything cosmological/timeline-wise/character-based in this trilogy. Gallan is SE's get-out. I think there is no point at all in trying to reconcile this trilogy with the 10 book cycle. It exists in an alternate universe. It can be enjoyed for itself (and I did enjoy many parts of it) but don't bother using it's facts to make sense with the 10 book cycle.


I see very little in FoD that doesn't fit well with what we've learned throughout MBotF. Might be the nature of T'riss (and yeah, I can see the Brood angle) but those are pretty insignificant.

When that is said, having an unreliable narrator is a pretty common literary tool, and only forces you to think a little more than if everything is told from the view of God.
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#42 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:30 PM

Spoiler

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 August 2012 - 03:33 PM

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#43 User is offline   anothevilbadguy 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 August 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Other than a lack of humour I have one other complaint as I read.

Spoiler



Orfantal is noted as about five, and he thinks Sukhul Ankadhu is only a little older. However, from her point of view bits it seems clear she is not that young, more in the 15-25 age group. Orfantal seems pretty sheltered so may not grasp age that well plus Sukhul could be pretty small/slight so that could confuse him.
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#44 User is offline   Fid 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:05 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 13 August 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

View Postblackzoid, on 13 August 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

And theres the problem. We might as well not believe a single word about anything cosmological/timeline-wise/character-based in this trilogy. Gallan is SE's get-out. I think there is no point at all in trying to reconcile this trilogy with the 10 book cycle. It exists in an alternate universe. It can be enjoyed for itself (and I did enjoy many parts of it) but don't bother using it's facts to make sense with the 10 book cycle.


I see very little in FoD that doesn't fit well with what we've learned throughout MBotF. Might be the nature of T'riss (and yeah, I can see the Brood angle) but those are pretty insignificant.

When that is said, having an unreliable narrator is a pretty common literary tool, and only forces you to think a little more than if everything is told from the view of God.


I think I am inclined to agree - there is nothing that I have read as yet (just in book 3) that invalidates anything in TMBOTF - and of course still 2 more volumes to things to unfold.
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#45 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:07 PM

View Postblackzoid, on 13 August 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Spoiler




Spoiler

" Ah, I despair, or I would if I cared enough. No, instead, I will make some ashcakes. Which I will not share."
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#46 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostUrizen, on 13 August 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

View Postblackzoid, on 13 August 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Spoiler




Spoiler



Spoiler

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 13 August 2012 - 05:15 PM

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#47 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:34 PM

View PostAptorius, on 13 August 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

View PostUrizen, on 13 August 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

View Postblackzoid, on 13 August 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Spoiler




Spoiler



Spoiler




Spoiler

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#48 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 13 August 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

View PostAptorius, on 13 August 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Spoiler



Spoiler



Remember that this entire story is told by Gallan, who readily admits in the prologue to the use of some artistic flourish.


Huh, I'd forgotten that he said that (though I recall noting it and thinking "Unreliable narrator, gotcha."). A very good point.
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#49 User is offline   Ceda Cicero 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 August 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 13 August 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 13 August 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

View PostAptorius, on 13 August 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Spoiler



Spoiler



Remember that this entire story is told by Gallan, who readily admits in the prologue to the use of some artistic flourish.


Huh, I'd forgotten that he said that (though I recall noting it and thinking "Unreliable narrator, gotcha."). A very good point.


I mean, the point about Gallan and the prelude is the most salient here.

I'm not saying it's a waste of time or an valueless exercise to question things, note inconsistencies, and try to iron them out as best you can (ie Brood, T'riss, etc.) What I will say is that SE has made it pretty clear (the prelude to FoD was, I think, the most blatant instance of this) that the inconsistencies are going to be there, and frankly, he doesn't give a fuck. The question ultimately becomes whether you can stomach that or not.

For my part, I found myself, for whatever reason, way less willing to stomach them now, with a new trilogy, than I was when I was in the grip of MBotF, even though I'm fully aware that if I could— and just get over them, and appreciate all of SE's remarkable strengths and what it is he's trying to do, the same way I did with MBotF—it would be vastly rewarding.

Maybe it's just because it's a new series, or maybe because I'd pinned too much expectation on this trilogy being a kind of "herein lie answers" trilogy.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 13 August 2012 - 11:18 PM

View PostIlluyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?

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#50 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:17 AM

With Apt's apt point regardin T'riss, Ardatha and time, what discrepancies are there apart from Brood?

People continue to talk of discrepancies as if the book had many, but apart from Brood, what are they?
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#51 User is offline   Iamme 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:55 AM

There are Gods and then there are Gods in waiting. A god needs worshipers. A god needs to claim his/her position. Just existing doesn't make you one.
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#52 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:15 AM

View PostIamme, on 14 August 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

There are Gods and then there are Gods in waiting. A god needs worshipers. A god needs to claim his/her position. Just existing doesn't make you one.



Yeah, that whole conversation was a bit of a convoluted mess wasn't it? It also makes the water the gods exist in a rather weak tea to me...
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#53 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:43 PM

Spoiler

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 14 August 2012 - 05:43 PM

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#54 User is offline   Luzburg 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:38 AM

View PostMorgoth, on 14 August 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

With Apt's apt point regardin T'riss, Ardatha and time, what discrepancies are there apart from Brood?

People continue to talk of discrepancies as if the book had many, but apart from Brood, what are they?


Envy and Spites mother.
The fact mother dark is no longer an elemental force that existed before time.
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#55 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:37 AM

View PostLuzburg, on 16 August 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 14 August 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

With Apt's apt point regardin T'riss, Ardatha and time, what discrepancies are there apart from Brood?

People continue to talk of discrepancies as if the book had many, but apart from Brood, what are they?


Envy and Spites mother.
The fact mother dark is no longer an elemental force that existed before time.


These are not discrepancies, retcons or whatever. They are natural changes in the story developed through hundreds of thousands of years.
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#56 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:36 AM

Yes, those ones I don't mind.
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#57 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:37 AM

View PostMorgoth, on 16 August 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

View PostLuzburg, on 16 August 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 14 August 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

With Apt's apt point regardin T'riss, Ardatha and time, what discrepancies are there apart from Brood?

People continue to talk of discrepancies as if the book had many, but apart from Brood, what are they?


Envy and Spites mother.
The fact mother dark is no longer an elemental force that existed before time.


These are not discrepancies, retcons or whatever. They are natural changes in the story developed through hundreds of thousands of years.


Indeed. We can safely assume that the whole 'mother' and 'father' thing is more spiritual than biological in these cases, which makes sense for beings worshipped as gods.

Also, Mother Dark is an elemental force now, she just did not start out as one. It never said she existed before time, it only said that Darkness did, and then warred with Choas etc. No contradiction there. And as soon as MD became the personification of that force and the Gate of Darkness was created and thus bound to one place the natural balance of things demanded that everything else develops gates, too, and so on. That's Draconus's screw up, though, not SE's.

Also, what Morgoth already said.

This post has been edited by Puck: 16 August 2012 - 09:40 AM

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#58 User is offline   The Retired Bridgeburner 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:45 PM

I've only read through Malazan once and am currently towards the end of FoD, so forgive me if I've gotten some of this wrong but....

Spoiler
.
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#59 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:41 PM

I have a question: where does it say that Nightchill and Korlat are two manifestations of the Sister of Cold Nights? I see you mentioning this for the second time now and aside from Korlat taking on the Andii title of 'Sister of Night' or something like that at the end of tCG I can't remember any connection.
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#60 User is offline   The Retired Bridgeburner 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:53 PM

It's possibly my interpretation that's askew, but she offers to be Sister of Night(s) and then I think it's Nimander gives the full title "Sister of Cold Nights" – it seemed a bit too glaring to be a mistake so I assumed the titles are meant to be interpreted as one and the same.

EDIT: After some reading around, I'm not so sure. Sister of Night is a role in the royal house of the Shake. I'm sure Nimander uses the entire phrase "Sister of Cold Nights" though. Argh!

This post has been edited by littlemissmetal: 17 August 2012 - 02:00 PM

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