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I have been skimming this thread, trying to avoid spoilers because I have yet to take the plunge on Bakker. I think I'll wait until the whole trilogy is available in paperback. I'm not made of money, especially after this Christmas. And god knows my backlog of books can keep me going into the next decade. (Plus I really need to reread all of Erikson and Martin).
The Book that Erikson just read and loved
#362
Brys 
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Posted 01 January 2006 - 06:37 PM
Ainulindale said:
To say that The Thousandfold Thought is powerful would be a severe understatement. The Prince of Nothing is the best completed epic fantasy series I have ever read.
Ever read? I know you've been saying that it's the best in the past 25 years, but that means better than LotR (IMO not that great), which for a self-confessed Tolkienist is a pretty high compliment.
#363
No-God
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Posted 01 January 2006 - 11:52 PM
Brys said:
Ever read? I know you've been saying that it's the best in the past 25 years, but that means better than LotR (IMO not that great), which for a self-confessed Tolkienist is a pretty high compliment.
I just received The Thousandfold Thought in the mail - advanced reader copy I won off eBay to do me over until I can purchase the Trade Paperback version - so I've yet to read it.
But based on the other two books in the trilogy, it's my favorite series I've read. Erikson and Martin are close, but the Prince of Nothing is just so well written and well conceived.
#364
Brys
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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:33 AM
I personally enjoy Erikson's series more, but I can't decide whether Martin or Bakker is better. Bakker's writing's superior to both Erikson's and Martin's by a wide margin, but it doesn't have the scope of Erikson or the amazing characters of Martin, but it certainly isn't far off, and often I think it is better than Martin.
#365 Guest_Jay Tomio_*
Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:24 PM
Quote
Ever read? I know you've been saying that it's the best in the past 25 years, but that means better than LotR (IMO not that great), which for a self-confessed Tolkienist is a pretty high compliment.
My 25 years statement was one I had openly pondered before reading The Thousandfold Thought, it's a book you have to ponder on the for a couple of days after. I don't think there is completed epic fantasy sequence as good as it period. Ever.
That said that doesn't mean best complted sequence of the fantastic ever IMHO, as it's by no means on the level of Whittemore's Jerusalem Quartet, Harrison's Viriconium, Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, Paul Auster's New York Trilogy, or Crowley's Aegypt series IMHO among others outside of the epic sub-genre, but regarding epic fantasy, I have a hard time thinking their is a better completed sequence that I have read (which is a number I would consider substantial).
#366 Guest_Harold Bloom_*
Posted 04 January 2006 - 07:08 PM
Writing the best completed series in epic fantasy is almost as coveted an honor as being the greatest female player in the NHL. Perhaps Bakker deserves the honor, but that says more about epic fantasy than it does about Bakker's linguistic skills or his command of theme and dramatic structure. However, despite all of Bakker's misteps, the Prince of Nothing will probably end up as number four on my short list of the best completed series in epic fantasy - distantly behind Lyonesse, Earthsea, and to a lesser extent Farseer.
After reading the unintentionally hillarious ending of The Warrior Prophet (All that sound and fury culminating in cartoonish dialogue and the further digression of the main story arc into something better fit for the young adult audience Bakker pissed off 600 pages earlier?), my desire to finish the trilogy has waned considerably.
After reading the unintentionally hillarious ending of The Warrior Prophet (All that sound and fury culminating in cartoonish dialogue and the further digression of the main story arc into something better fit for the young adult audience Bakker pissed off 600 pages earlier?), my desire to finish the trilogy has waned considerably.
#367 Guest_Heboric_*
Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:27 AM
I was just about to make a post to see if anyone had read this series. While picking up MoI, I noticed the first 2 books in hardcover and was curious if they were any good. Guess I'll be heading back to pick them up now as I've finished MoI.
#368
No-God
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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:49 AM
Harold Bloom said:
After reading the unintentionally hillarious ending of The Warrior Prophet (All that sound and fury culminating in cartoonish dialogue and the further digression of the main story arc into something better fit for the young adult audience Bakker pissed off 600 pages earlier?), my desire to finish the trilogy has waned considerably.
I'm sorry, what? I thought the conclusion of The Warrior-Prophet was one of the most... I don't know, epic? scenes I've ever read.
I was literally trembling at that point. I don't see what was cartoonish about the dialogue, nor do I see what's so 'young adult' or 'hilarious' about such a glorious ending.
Unless you're one of those people that go to movies and laugh when people get killed.
#370
Monoch Ochem
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Posted 05 January 2006 - 05:29 PM
Brys said:
I personally enjoy Erikson's series more, but I can't decide whether Martin or Bakker is better. Bakker's writing's superior to both Erikson's and Martin's by a wide margin, but it doesn't have the scope of Erikson or the amazing characters of Martin, but it certainly isn't far off, and often I think it is better than Martin.
Bakker superior to ERICKSON?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! In no WAY, SHAPE OR FORM imho!! I found him VASTLY inferior to Erickson and even Martin (whom I now have no time for) towered above him. Matter of opinion I'm sure but I REALLY didn't think much of the 2 books so far. In fact, I found that book 2 was worse than book 1. The Khellus-ation is just so unconvincing....
"Oh! Who are you?"
"I'm Khellus. Follow me to the ends of the earth."
"OK. If the opportunity presents itself, can I die trying to kill everyone who stands in your way while I'm at it?"
"Of course."
Sorry. I just wasn't that impressed.
"We greet you Jaghut."
#371 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:03 PM
Good to know that i wasnt the only one who didnt buy into the whole kellhus obsession every single character in the book seems to have.
Kellhus should just get together with the no god for a little chat and convince him to give up on the whole 'subjugating the universe' thing and instead become a professional scrabble player. You know kellhus would have the no god scrambling for his dictionary in no time flat.
Kellhus should just get together with the no god for a little chat and convince him to give up on the whole 'subjugating the universe' thing and instead become a professional scrabble player. You know kellhus would have the no god scrambling for his dictionary in no time flat.
#372
Brys
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Posted 05 January 2006 - 08:51 PM
Monoch Ochem said:
Bakker superior to ERICKSON?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! In no WAY, SHAPE OR FORM imho!! I found him VASTLY inferior to Erickson and even Martin (whom I now have no time for) towered above him. Matter of opinion I'm sure but I REALLY didn't think much of the 2 books so far. In fact, I found that book 2 was worse than book 1. The Khellus-ation is just so unconvincing....
"Oh! Who are you?"
"I'm Khellus. Follow me to the ends of the earth."
"OK. If the opportunity presents itself, can I die trying to kill everyone who stands in your way while I'm at it?"
"Of course."
Sorry. I just wasn't that impressed.
"Oh! Who are you?"
"I'm Khellus. Follow me to the ends of the earth."
"OK. If the opportunity presents itself, can I die trying to kill everyone who stands in your way while I'm at it?"
"Of course."
Sorry. I just wasn't that impressed.
Only superior to Erikson in terms of prose - Erikson's improving with every book he writes, but I find that Bakker's writing flows much better and has a much more consistent, intelligent feel to it than Erikson's. The novel overall I didn't find quite as good as Erikson's best, but I can see how a case can be made for it, especially with the characterisation - I don't think there are that many more grey, intriguing characters than Kellhus have ever been created.
#373
No-God
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Posted 06 January 2006 - 01:41 AM
Monoch Ochem said:
Bakker superior to ERICKSON?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! In no WAY, SHAPE OR FORM imho!! I found him VASTLY inferior to Erickson and even Martin (whom I now have no time for) towered above him. Matter of opinion I'm sure but I REALLY didn't think much of the 2 books so far. In fact, I found that book 2 was worse than book 1. The Khellus-ation is just so unconvincing....
"Oh! Who are you?"
"I'm Khellus. Follow me to the ends of the earth."
"OK. If the opportunity presents itself, can I die trying to kill everyone who stands in your way while I'm at it?"
"Of course."
Sorry. I just wasn't that impressed.
"Oh! Who are you?"
"I'm Khellus. Follow me to the ends of the earth."
"OK. If the opportunity presents itself, can I die trying to kill everyone who stands in your way while I'm at it?"
"Of course."
Sorry. I just wasn't that impressed.
I feel you probably read a different story than I did. Kellhus didn't overwhelm everyone he spoke to immediately - it took much buildup.
The people were still absolutely loyal to their own leaders - Proyas, Conphas- Saubon, etc - and it wasn't until Kellhus was cut off the Circumfix that everyone finally believed he was a Prophet.
As you'll see in Thousandfold Thought, one of the leaders garners as much respect as the Prophet does.
#374 Guest_Indebted_*
Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:51 AM
Oops... Just started reading "The Darkness That Comes Before" and I might have accidentally read a few spoilers. Oh well.
It cost me £7.99 from Ottaker's Bookshop, and, I have to say, it's worth that already, just for the first few chapters. I've not seen such flowing prose in years. I started reading, and lost myself in it until my toes turned to prunes, and my girlfriend started banging on the bathroom door, asking if I'd drowned. Not even his profusion of vowel mutating umlauts could bring me out of my trance.
It cost me £7.99 from Ottaker's Bookshop, and, I have to say, it's worth that already, just for the first few chapters. I've not seen such flowing prose in years. I started reading, and lost myself in it until my toes turned to prunes, and my girlfriend started banging on the bathroom door, asking if I'd drowned. Not even his profusion of vowel mutating umlauts could bring me out of my trance.
#375
Tes'thesula
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 07:49 PM
thoughts on warrior prophet on second read through...(likely spoilers):
Obviously liked the book, hence second read through, but , like others, not a fan of kellhus, and the reason that Cnauir is my favourite character is that he is not directly controlled by the WP, it is also the reason i liked Proyas, his final repudation of kellhus near the end made me cheer out loud.
well written, but i did not find the battle scenes to be as engaging as Erikson's. there never seemed to any doubt over the outcome...and the last battle was ridiculous...over 100,000 well fed, well armed men vs. 50,000 starved, weary men....strained my suspension of disbelief too far
but all in all...i will buy book three
Obviously liked the book, hence second read through, but , like others, not a fan of kellhus, and the reason that Cnauir is my favourite character is that he is not directly controlled by the WP, it is also the reason i liked Proyas, his final repudation of kellhus near the end made me cheer out loud.
well written, but i did not find the battle scenes to be as engaging as Erikson's. there never seemed to any doubt over the outcome...and the last battle was ridiculous...over 100,000 well fed, well armed men vs. 50,000 starved, weary men....strained my suspension of disbelief too far
but all in all...i will buy book three
#376
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 12:57 AM
mjgill said:
thoughts on warrior prophet on second read through...(likely spoilers):
Obviously liked the book, hence second read through, but , like others, not a fan of kellhus, and the reason that Cnauir is my favourite character is that he is not directly controlled by the WP, it is also the reason i liked Proyas, his final repudation of kellhus near the end made me cheer out loud.
well written, but i did not find the battle scenes to be as engaging as Erikson's. there never seemed to any doubt over the outcome...and the last battle was ridiculous...over 100,000 well fed, well armed men vs. 50,000 starved, weary men....strained my suspension of disbelief too far
but all in all...i will buy book three
Obviously liked the book, hence second read through, but , like others, not a fan of kellhus, and the reason that Cnauir is my favourite character is that he is not directly controlled by the WP, it is also the reason i liked Proyas, his final repudation of kellhus near the end made me cheer out loud.
well written, but i did not find the battle scenes to be as engaging as Erikson's. there never seemed to any doubt over the outcome...and the last battle was ridiculous...over 100,000 well fed, well armed men vs. 50,000 starved, weary men....strained my suspension of disbelief too far
but all in all...i will buy book three
*Spoilers*
There was never any certainty as to how many were in each army. Yes, the Kianese army was larger than the Inrithi, but I don't believe there was any clear-cut amounts, anywhere, since reaching Carakstand. But this book is about how intangibles - immaterialistic things - drive people, really. So, the army of Kian had nothing to really fight for, except the city. The Inrithi was convinced Kellhus is their saviour, and the next Prophet. They had their deep faith to fight for - and they believed God was on their side in that battle.
Add that to the mental disencouragement that Kian probably felt, having lost to the Inrithi several times before, and it wasn't that unbelievable. Plus, similar events have happened in history. The Battle of Thermopylae comes to mind.
#377
Set'alahd Crool
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 04:56 AM
@No God
That amazing event is surely a once off. 300 Spartans holding off a million persians isn't a good example of the peculiarities of war happens in war. I'm pretty sure nothing on that scale has ever happened before or since. And they all died. In fact, even though it did happen I find it hard to swallow. Put something like that in a fantasy book......David Gemmel did. Used that very battle in a Druss tale (except the "Good guys" won in his version). He at least wrote the battle seen well. Bakker just sort of said "So the starving, sick and untill recently dying army lined up just so, walked up to the other army - remember them? Superior numbers, all fit and healthy and (mostly) mounted, with lots of archers? Those ones - and killed them."
I enjoyed the first two books, but they let me down in a lot of ways.
That amazing event is surely a once off. 300 Spartans holding off a million persians isn't a good example of the peculiarities of war happens in war. I'm pretty sure nothing on that scale has ever happened before or since. And they all died. In fact, even though it did happen I find it hard to swallow. Put something like that in a fantasy book......David Gemmel did. Used that very battle in a Druss tale (except the "Good guys" won in his version). He at least wrote the battle seen well. Bakker just sort of said "So the starving, sick and untill recently dying army lined up just so, walked up to the other army - remember them? Superior numbers, all fit and healthy and (mostly) mounted, with lots of archers? Those ones - and killed them."
I enjoyed the first two books, but they let me down in a lot of ways.
#378
Folken
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 05:44 AM
just a comment...i was in chapters today and they had a crap load of TTT on sale (i didn't buy since i have to pre-ordered online) and i must say the binding is cheap...if not bordering on pathetic. NOTHING like the TWP
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#380
Folken
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Posted 14 January 2006 - 02:47 AM
well its not supposed to be officially out yet. I think the book stores made an error...but meh doesn't really bother me lol I got a copy:D I haven't started it as of yet though, currently working on a website for someone should be done over the weekend. Will start then
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
