[Atrahal]

Liosan, on 01 August 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I put a solid few hours of each day into this except for last Friday when I got slammed at work. It's a shame that I'm not able to be around when everyone else is all the time, but that's the way it is when you have a job and friends! That being said, I'm not one to sit here and vomit out everything that comes to mind. I make a case, and refute when I can, and move on when I'm convinced. I try to put only useful information on thread, make my accusations, and not create pages and pages of useless garble like some other unnamed princesses.

That all being said, I don't really believe that Atrahal ever made any great effort to defend himself from me... This is what he said:

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In terms of what Lio is saying against me, I find it laughable that he can say he is happy to add to a lynch train to get a lynch, but finds me suspicious for doing the same. If I was switching my vote around a lot I could understand his suspicion, but I haven't been doing that at all.

He's right, he hasn't been switching his vote around a lot, but he didn't at all respond to the real case I made, which was that he spent most of Day 2 making random cases (against two confirmed innos if I am not mistaken) and all around just throwing suspicion around until he can safely throw a vote at Tellan again (because Eloth brought him back up).

I spent that day making cases in an attempt to get some conversation going. It did serve some purpose, I came to the conclusion that Eloth was an innocent newbie. No one was interested in either of the cases I made, and in the end I voted along with everyone else to get the lynch.

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And then Day 3 he throws out comments like...

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You're an idiot. What if PS isn't including roles in the CF? Then that leaves us no wiser as to where the scum is hiding.

..which just seems like deliberately misunderstanding how these games are played as a standard to muddy up people's choices and thoughts. A finder CFs Finder in every M&P game I've ever played... and....

How many games have you actually played? I've only played a few, but in ONLY ONE has the finder CF-ed as such, and that was commented on as unusual during the game. It was a valid point, as Sorrit's entire play was based on the fact that we would know whether Kalse was inno or not when lynched, which certainly wasn't the case.

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I said nothing at all about lynching Kalse. In fact, I think this play is much more likely to be the work of a symp than scum, in which case there is no point at all in lynching him. We'd be better to look at who he was trying to protect.

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Who said anything about lynching Kaschan? And we don't have to lynch the symp, just scum. It's not D-day yet, and your fatalistic attitude and insults are not going to help anyone.

...which is pretty much dumb as far as I am concerned. If we are sure someone is the symp, why leave them around? It automatically gives us an extra day before D Day, and once it's as obvious as it was that Kalse was the symp, why would they do anything to symp and possibly have their killers caught? They'd just be around creating havoc onthread that wouldn't help anyone who is town.

I maintain that lynching Kalse was a bad move. It was a waste of a lynch, it gave us no further information on who the killers were, it gave the killers another night to reduce our numbers and we lost the opportunity to lynch a killer. I can see the reasoning behind the choice to lynch Kalse and I would have voted for him if it was necessary for the lynch, but I don't agree with the lynch of a symp.

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Anyway, I believe that Atrahal is one of the scum, but I am afraid to vote him just yet for fear that he's not and the 2 scum hammer. So I'll hold off for now, but unless something more compelling comes up, that's where my vote's going. If Atrahal CFs scum, I'm going to give you all a great big fuck you for not listening to me 2-3 days ago. If not, well, I won't.

I think you are blinded by the certainty of your case. You have barely even considered any other options, and this blinkering is dangerous. I'm not convinced you are scum so I'm not voting for you yet, but you're on my list of liklies.

[Atrahal]

Tellan, on 01 August 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

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Ok, so first off, you say that Kalse was "defending the hell" out of me, but you have one instance of that, amid a massive collection of posts defending Liosan.

Actually, I said he was defending the hell out of Liosan. He defended you less, and a bit more subtly. That was the point of scenario 1.

You blatantly stated that Kalse was defending the hell out of both of us, even though your quotes didn't support that. You're trying to paint this as more significant than it was.

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You say I was "scolding" Kalse, but if you read the rest of my post, rather than just the bit you underlined, I was scolding the idiot who suggested that both of us were scum because of one instance of Kalse disagreeing with comments made against me.

I know that's the way you intended the post to look to town, but I read an undertone of telling your symp to stop defending you when you don't need it.

If that's the way you insint on reading it, there is not much I can do about that, except to assure you that's it's not the way I meant it. Every game I play I get accused of being scum either for defending someone or for having someone defend me, and it does get trying. It was not aimed at Kalse, but at the other players who were seeing connections were there weren't any.

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I think Liosan is much more likely to be scum

This quote makes me feel you are scum even more. More likely to be scum than you? If you were inno you would say that with conviction, and word it differently. If you're inno, you KNOW you're inno. I know you will say I twisted your words, and that's fine. This is just how it read to me.

Again, if that's how you're reading it, there is not much I can do. My meaning was that I'm still not convinced Liosan is scum, but more likely to be scum than town.

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Add to that, the fact that Liosan has been pretty much absent recently

Agree with you here, Liosan's dissapearance is no good for his town likelihood.

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The case he built on me was safe, and he never hung around long enough to discuss his cases or respond to my defence.

Which is my point. It never threw undo suspicion on you.

I can see where you are coming from here, but the fact that it did not throw undue suspicion on me cuts both ways.

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In fact, it may be significant, Tellan, that you have all this evidence against Liosan, but you are voting for me. I could see this as distancing from Liosan without actually havin to vote for him.

No. When you CF scum, he would be the next logical lynch in my mind, and I would continue to push that tomorrow.

And when I don't CF as scum? Would you consider voting him today? Why does it take my lynch for your suspicions to turn to Tellan? Does Lio's continued push for my lynch change your mind at all? At this stage you seem to have linked us together through Kalse, but at least in my case that link does not exist. So when I CF as town, will that clear Lio in your eyes as well?

[Sorrit]

Rashan, on 01 August 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Oh god Sorrit. I have to laugh at you sometimes you silly schizophrenic nutter.

I apologise for getting grumpy. It's been a very long day.

I'm not really mad when people get pissed at me, mostly because I know I helped bring it on myself. I guess I am schitzo, because it's fun screwing with people, yet I do it jokingly, and sometimes it comes across wrong. I love all you guys, honestly. I will never admit it again, but you guys are brilliant minds, and I just enjoy the challenge. I'm such a good guy, though. So f'getaboutit.

I do play all over the place. I only hate it when I get accused of not having reasons for it all. It all paints one giant, odd picture in my brain. You can read a lot by how someone reacts to different stimulus. BUT, I am only in my 4th game, and still learning. I have an odd tactic of poking far too many people at once. It makes sense to me, yet I see how it can hurt things. I'll try to pull back. If I don't, or can't, SORRY.

You know what I seriously can't do, no matter how hard I try - low post, or maintain my initial, more calm persona, that I always start with, and just can't uphold. Hell, they were calling me the smooth, calm, no ripples player first two days. Then not being able to convince everyone that Kalse was sooo seemingly a symp lying about being the finder, broke me. The beast was unleashed.

Where were we?



Re-reading a few quick posts, then will be right back.

[Sorrit]

Rashan, on 01 August 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

In other news, I thought I'd post my opinions on thread. It's not terribly good, since it's just what I wrote up after reading the thread during the day today, but it's what I think, so I guess it helps? I'll be around more on thread tonight, since I've got some work to do but it's not the due-tomorrow-and-is also-really-really-important kind

So:



Atrahal: probably significantly suspicious enough to be be scum. The stuff Telas and Tellen have come up with is sufficiently convincing to think he's worth lynching at this point.

Sorrit: probably town. Irritatingly mucking up the thread constantly town, but still town. I'd have been tempted to call him a symp from the way he's been playing, combined with his fairly frequent mentions of the role, but that doesn't seem to be the case since Kalse. Can't really figure out why he was fingered by Telas as potential scum, I'll be going back to reread that bit, but I suspect that's passed so it's probably not worth it.

Kaschan: tentatively as town. I think that's much too dangerous a move for a symp at a point where Kaschan was being discussed but not really one of the potential targets for a lynch, since that consisted of me and Tellen, given that people's first inclinations were to vote Kaschan (why did that change by the way? Can't seem to find the reason for it.). It's all very odd and wifomy

Tellen: Very unsure about. I keep swinging backwards and forwards about him being scum. Partly because every now and then someone links him with me as potential scum partners, which is weird because I've been wanting to lynch him pretty much up until the point where Kalse "revealed", and now I'm even less certain.

Liosan: Very little read on, personally but getting a lot of attention from other places. He pops up and down again. Most of what I've got about him is people talking about him and it's not been positive, so I'd say scummyish with a dose of I really need to go and take a good hard look myself.

Finally Telas: If he's scum he's playing it pretty damn well, he's persuasive, calm and logical and seems to have towns best interests in mind. So I don't think I'm prepared to lynch him without a terribly good reason.

So I guess that leave my top scum picks, in order of current levels of suspicion (subject to change) as Atrahal, Tellen, Liosan, Kaschan, Telas, Sorrit.

Holy shit, Rashan. You made your thoughts known on all remaining players. I'm impressed! Wish you would of gave us more of this the whole game. You see how, since you haven't said a whole lot, we are unable to feel you out as well as the others, therefore it makes a safe place for scum to hide.

[Rashan]

/sigh

I know.
If I could have participated more I would have.
The last two weeks have been unexpectedly insane.

[Sorrit]

That's a good post. Really good. You covered a lot of stuff that sways me away from your Lynch. I especially like how you're hesitant to trust anybody. So, please don't trust Telas, yet, and it wouldn't be fair to not include myself, although I know I'm Inno, and I'm the only one I know is Inno.

My list ranks like this, from scummiest to towniest: Tellan, have to still put you second for now Rashan, Telas, Atrahal, Kaschan, Liosan, me.

Now to PM PS my real list, brb.

[Kaschan]

I'm here, in rough shape, no clue what I've missed there's been several pages since yesterday

[Sorrit]

Rashan, on 31 July 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 31 July 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

IF HE CFS FUCKING FINDER WE WIN. IF HES SCUM, WHY TEST IT LYNCHING ANYONE BUT HIM.


GOD YOU GUYS ARE MORONS.

No, you're the moron for thinking it makes a blind bit of difference. Either way, it's going to take us three days. Or two, if he's lied to us.

Rashan, what did you mean by two days, if he's lying, which he was. Where did you get two days from?

[Sorrit]

Kaschan, on 01 August 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

I'm here, in rough shape, no clue what I've missed there's been several pages since yesterday

Kaschan, Rashan gave his take on all remaining players. We need your thoughts on who you think is scum. Since Kalse claimed finder, and found you and SL scum, and since SL CFed Inno, you might be our closest thing to someone we can trust. Don't run off, post some thoughts before you go. Who would you like to Lynch, and who should we clear.

[Sorrit]

Rashan, on 31 July 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Tellan, on 31 July 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Oh, I forgot you think he's my symp. No wonder you aren't listening.

I'd love for someone to log on and play the effing game.

Christ you whine a lot. Didn't your mother ever teach you that when you've not got something nice to say don't say it?

I missed this post, Rashan. Rashan plus 1 to awesome, in my book.

[Sorrit]

Kaschan? Gonna give us ANYTHING?

[Sorrit]

Oh, you might be reading, sorry.

[Tellan]

Jeez, S. You get so offended when I call you names. They're endearing at this stage, not insulting.

[Sorrit]

Tellan, on 31 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Hmm. Alright, here we go. Please read all of this, everyone. I know long posts can be a pain, but I would really love some comments here.

Kalse, on 26 July 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Im still here as well but im at work so I keep half writing something and getting interupted and then forgetting the point I was making....

I'm thinking lisoan isnt scum, but only becuase ruse was voting for him the whole day, and there was hardly any other heat on him, it would of been daft for lio to kill off ruse....I'm not rulling him out completlty, but I think he is a little less likely to be scum right now....

So here is Kalse's first instance of defending Liosan. Somewhat subtle. Not very subtle, but its not outright. He gives reasoning, at least.

Kalse, on 26 July 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Liosan, on 26 July 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Hmm, after all that analyzing, I think my favourite for scum suspect right now is Atrahal, for giving us shit for voting Emu, then trying to hammer him after he had already been hammered. And his vote Emu, then vote Tellan within 5 minutes thing as well.

vote Atrahal

I think atrahal was just making sure we got a lynch. We have all hammered someone we didn't really want to vote for just to get a lynch.
Also he was voting for emur, who was town an then changed his mind, if emur had been found scum I'd be voting for atrahal right now, but he wasn't.

I'm not to impresses with Lios mass of cases right now...

And here Kalse defends Atrahal, and distances himself from Liosan a bit. Interesting.

Atrahal, on 26 July 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

If I had a dollar for every time someone decided that a player defending another player means that both of them are scum... I'd like you to read this REALLY CAREFULLY. If we were partners it would be very stupid of Kalse to jump to my defence after only one vote, especially this early in the day, and with so many other votes and suspects hanging around. Responding to a case is what happens in Mafia, and if someone disagrees with a case then it is up to them to question that case. That is the only way we are going to get enough information out on the board to make an informed decision. Your attack of Kalse really just looks like you trying to deflect suspicion because it is a poor case. You could have easily answered Kalse's reservations constructively, but instead you went on the attack, and it looks dodgy.

This reads like a master admonishing his symp.


Just a side note, Atrahal has made cases on two confirmed innocents so far on day 2. Not damning in itself, but it adds to it. That would be SL and Eloth.

Kalse, on 27 July 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

If we are looking at low posters with little or no content I think we need to look at kaschan a little, this post is pretty much the only thing he's said in the last 24 hours that wasn't a 'I'm catching up' or 'I'm going to bed' comment...

Here is an instance that Kalse attacks Kaschan. So this would lead to the idea that Kaschan is not a killer.

Kalse, on 27 July 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

I still think lio is town, but its more of a wifom gut feeling, more than anything else which I was called on when I made that post originally

there's quite a few if us who are just slipping through without making any waves, its those im thinking of right now

my house internet keeps going on and off, ive tried 3 times to post this so im going to be using my phone after this

Kalse continues to defend Liosan.

Kalse, on 27 July 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

the first post was an analysis of ruse after he was killed and the second one was about lio

why dont you vote for me if you think my defense of lio makes lio scummy?

This one is a very interesting post. Kalse begs for votes himself, rather than people voting Liosan. His logic in this post is extremely flawed.

Kalse, on 27 July 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I dont think lio's scum, so why would i vote for him?

Another post defending Liosan, it seems too easy!

Kalse, on 27 July 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

im not sure how lio has managed to gain three votes so quickly, with no new evidence being brought forward
by my count we have just jumped to liosan.

3 Votes for Tellan ( Tennes, Osseric, Atrahal )
1 Vote for Liosan ( Sheltatha Lore )
6 Votes for Osseric ( Tellan, Eloth, Kalse, D'riss, Telas, Liosan )

to

2 Votes for Tellan ( Osseric, Atrahal )
4 Vote for Liosan ( Sheltatha Lore, D'riss, Tellan, Tennes, )
4 Votes for Osseric ( Eloth, Kalse, Liosan, Telas )

which if anything has just made it harder to get a lynch at all...



because we need a lynch i will switch if someone else votes for lio but i dont agree with the case and i dont like how quick three votes switched

Again, more defensive. This quantity of posts is just ridiculous.

Kalse, on 27 July 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

too many cross posts, that counts way off

remove vote, vote lio

to get the lynch

Here he switches, as the lynch is inevitable. Not sure how I feel about this.

Atrahal, on 27 July 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Vote Osseric

But here Atrahal votes Osseric, and this vote is basically what secures Osseric as an option again. So here Atrahal resists the Liosan lynch.

Liosan, on 31 July 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

It's definitely been one of those days. I can't shake my feeling that Atrahal is scum - that's where my vote was yesterday before I moved it to Osseric for the lynch. I'm going to have a closer look at Atrahal and see if I can come up with something a little more concrete than my gut feeling.

As for the case against me, I don't really understand it. It seems to rest on things that I explain as I'm doing them, misrepresentation of the things that I've said and the actions that I've taken. I apologize for not being as active as I usually am this game, but I got slammed really hard at work last week, and it's only barely letting up this week. Anyway, I'll dig up the case against me after I have had a look at Atrahal, but for now I agree with Tennes' refutation of what seems to be the case against me. *nods* Stay tuned!

And here is an example of Liosan not liking Atrahal. There were a lot of these, but I only grabbed this one because I didn't make the connection right away. I'll get to that in a minute.



In conclusion, Kalse, our known symp, defends the hell out of Liosan, and Atrahal. He didn't defend anyone else at all. He really worked to relieve suspicion on Liosan, and we didn't get a lynch there. All of these posts can lead to no other conclusion but that Liosan was heavily symped by kalse.

-but- Kalse seems to be fake symping me (and Rashan, if he is inno). I think there's a definite possibility that Kalse was fake symping Liosan because Liosan had frequently posted that she was very suspicious of Atrahal, and continued to vote in that way despite little support.

Along with that, Kalse defends Atrahal, and Atrahal seems to scold him.

So here are my likely scenarios.


Kalse as symp, Liosan is inno, Atrahal is a killer.

Kalse as symp, Liosan and Atrahal both killers.


Liosan's accusations against Atrahal were pretty easy to make, and not dangerous. No one supported. This could easily be distancing. Along with that, Atrahal did not vote on the Liosan train.

Either way, I see Atrahal as scum after this reread in either scenario, so here we go.

Vote Atrahal



Comments, please.

See next post, notepad is giving me shit transferring over.

[Sorrit]

Kalse Finds:

Kalse, on 31 July 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

if you lynch me, you give scum an extra night to kill, so you will lose two town

its not d-day but its not far off.

Im expecting to be NK'd today anyway now ive revealed.


remove vote

Vote Sheltatha Lore
we need to pick one of the ducks and lynch them tonight. I dont care which one you choose. lynching the finder to see if he is lying? sounds like one hell of a dodgy idea to me

Kalse, on 31 July 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I did my first find on shelly on night one, the main reason Ive been pro lio and atrahal and defended them before was mainly because shelly seamed to be casting suspicions at those two, or they were saying bad things about shelly.

decided to do my second find on kaschan because I thought he was just cruising through, and just keeping far to quiet. But mainly becuase he was also a duck,

crap reason to do it but it came through for us in the end

Kalse, on 31 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 31 July 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

IF HE CFS FUCKING FINDER WE WIN. IF HES SCUM, WHY TEST IT LYNCHING ANYONE BUT HIM.


GOD YOU GUYS ARE MORONS.

because you would end up killing town and if we dont get finder showing on the CF we have lost the game because I would of just gave the ducks an iron clad alibi

If you vote for one of the ducks and he shows up town then you lynch me the day after.

and you see who was the most likely target for todays lynch to see who i was defending with my fake claim and you go for them.

Kalse's 'finds'. Admits to symping Liosan, and Atrahal.

Edit to underline.

This post has been edited by Sorrit: 01 August 2012 - 02:11 PM

[Sorrit]

My breaks? I'd group Liosan with Atrahal, Tellan with Rashan/Kaschan, or Telas with Rashan.

More coming.

[Sorrit]

Tellan, on 01 August 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Jeez, S. You get so offended when I call you names. They're endearing at this stage, not insulting.

That's all you had to say, babe! I, also, already explained that I'm not really mad. I'm just messing with you. I don't know 60, but everyone else I adore.

[Sorrit]

Kaschan doesn't come back, again. Do we even know what he thinks about anyone?

Should we kill him, pressure him?

remove vote
Vote Kaschan

[Tellan]

Well it seems very likely he's town, so we should hope that he comes back.

So are we just between lynching Atrahal and me today? There has been talk of Rashan and Liosan, but it seems the former two are more likely.

[Sorrit]

Tennes, on 31 July 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

The first train

8 Votes for Emurlahn ( Sorrit, Tellan, Kalse, Osseric, Kaschan, Rashan, Liosan, Sheltatha Lore )

it's the first few votes that makes it happen. You might have picked Emur first but Tellan then Kalse follow. One killer, one symp, then the last killer votes later on (Rashan, Lio or Shelly)

More and more i am not thinking it is Lio.

That second lynch is down to the swing. Shelly removes and Tellan removes and adds to Ozzy.

killer pair, shelly and tellan?

kalse as symp

This post by tennes is the last post before Kalse decides to do his finder reveal, 6 minutes later. He had been on for about a half hour when he revealed. Posted once, claiming he had some thoughts, about 30 mins before finally revealing. I think it was Tennes post right before his that spooks him into action. We know of the three Tennes said were scum, he was right about Kalse as symp, SL CFs town, and we don't know Tellans.

If we assume he was also right about Tellan, and with Tellan about to have 3 votes, and tennes claiming Kalse symp, this could be the reason for Kalse's insane reveal, which we've been wondering about.

Edit for underline.

So is it Tellan plus X? Or is it Atrahal and Liosan? Telas Rashan? Oh well, ill check back later.

This post has been edited by Sorrit: 01 August 2012 - 02:30 PM