[Abalieno]

pat5150, on 21 July 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

with about 150 pages left to go, I'm wondering how well FoD will stand on its own.

Abalieno, on 18 July 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

I can imagine a possible criticism will be that the book won't have enough closure...

I could see this from far away

[Raker]

pat5150, on 20 July 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

There is clearly not enough information about these things at the moment, so it's hard to say just how right or wrong Baruk turned out to be. I have a feeling that a lot of "facts" were lost during the course of the millennia, which might be a way for SE to cop-out and work around some of the Malazan canon.

We will have to wait and see...

Spoiler

Yes Draconus' daughters all share the same mother and you won't believe who it is!

I realize that you probably have no choice but you are really cruel Pat, presenting all these small pieces of info. And thank you for every piece...

Spoiler

So it is not Sheltatha, If we are going to be shocked?

[Kanese S's]

pat5150, on 20 July 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Why do you say that???

Patrick

He's just a character. His family tree is from his POV, not omniscient POV. Characters can be wrong.

[pat5150]

Raker, on 21 July 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

I realize that you probably have no choice but you are really cruel Pat, presenting all these small pieces of info. And thank you for every piece...

Oh, I have a choice... I just don't do spoilers... That's why, since that clown who won the Advance Reading Copy of RotCG spoiled the entire novel in these forums, there has never been another Malazan ARC giveaway on the Hotlist.

But I like to throw you guys a bone every now and again, just to drive you crazy!

Patrick

[tiam]

Raker, on 21 July 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

pat5150, on 20 July 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

There is clearly not enough information about these things at the moment, so it's hard to say just how right or wrong Baruk turned out to be. I have a feeling that a lot of "facts" were lost during the course of the millennia, which might be a way for SE to cop-out and work around some of the Malazan canon.

We will have to wait and see...

Spoiler

Yes Draconus' daughters all share the same mother and you won't believe who it is!

I realize that you probably have no choice but you are really cruel Pat, presenting all these small pieces of info. And thank you for every piece...

Spoiler

So it is not Sheltatha, If we are going to be shocked?

This worries me. If were having things change so the new characters have a link to the main arc, or fringe characters are more relevant it worries me. SE copping out and having things lost over history is one thing but SE changing info we heard from ancient power players in the main series will undoubtedly annoy me.

Still holding out hope on this.

[pat5150]

Since a lot of people have been asking and since it's not a spoiler per se, here's the major timeline inconsistency I was alluding to:

Spoiler

According to the Malazan wiki, «Sukul Ankhadu was a soletaken Eleint goddess of the Tiste Edur. She was sister to Menandore, and half-sister to Sheltatha Lore. She was the daughter of Tiam and Osserc.»

Problem is, at the beginning of FoD Sukul Ankhadu is already a young woman held as a noble hostage. It is a problem because she appears to be older than Osserc (who could be anywhere between late teenage years and young adulthood). So as things stand, Osserc could not have fathered Sukul Ankhadu. Moreover, at this juncture dragons are just a legend and Tiam remains unknown to the Tiste.

Bizarre...

Another similar inconsistency:

According to the Malazan wiki, «Sheltatha Lore was the Ascendant daughter of Scabandari Bloodeye and Tiam. She was worshipped by the Tiste Edur as "Daughter Dusk", along with her half-sisters Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu. She was a Soletaken, taking the form of a dragon. She had two daughters with Draconus, Spite and Envy.»

Problem is, her mother is a Legion captain who uses her daughter as a whore to reward soldiers. There is no info at this point regarding whether or not Scabandari Bloodeye could be the father, but it is possible. He is a Legion officer, after all. Again, Tiam cannot enter this equation in the time frame we are looking at. In addition, I've already mentioned that, while Draconus has indeed fathered Spite, Envy, and Malice, Sheltatha Lore is not their mother...

We can only hope that SE won't take the path of least resistance and cop out, turning his back on the established Malazan canon...

Only time will tell...

This post has been edited by pat5150: 22 July 2012 - 10:44 PM

[Abalieno]

Well, considering I've never heard that name it's not a GotMism.

Meaning that it only appears in the latter part of the series, and so it would be weird that Erikson makes a mistake about it, being more recent.

EDIT: Oh wait, "Dapple"... It's in MT. Still...

The whole thing about soletaken will likely be an upcoming plot/theme of the book. May even be some sort of climatic closure to the trilogy.

P.S.
In MT Sukul Ankhadu and Menadore call Sheltatha Lore their "cousin", also mentioning an uncle they had who's Dusk's father ( Scabandari).
Menadore and Sukul instead are "sisters", and call Osserc their father.
Sukul also mentions that Draconus and Sheltata are the parents of Spite and Envy, but Menadore is not aware of this, and it could be that Sukul is lying to Menadore to stir some hate towards Sheltata.

This post has been edited by Abalieno: 23 July 2012 - 04:21 AM

[Kanese S's]

pat5150, on 22 July 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

Since a lot of people have been asking and since it's not a spoiler per se, here's the major timeline inconsistency I was alluding to:

Spoiler

According to the Malazan wiki, «Sukul Ankhadu was a soletaken Eleint goddess of the Tiste Edur. She was sister to Menandore, and half-sister to Sheltatha Lore. She was the daughter of Tiam and Osserc.»

Problem is, at the beginning of FoD Sukul Ankhadu is already a young woman held as a noble hostage. It is a problem because she appears to be older than Osserc (who could be anywhere between late teenage years and young adulthood). So as things stand, Osserc could not have fathered Sukul Ankhadu. Moreover, at this juncture dragons are just a legend and Tiam remains unknown to the Tiste.

Bizarre...

Another similar inconsistency:

According to the Malazan wiki, «Sheltatha Lore was the Ascendant daughter of Scabandari Bloodeye and Tiam. She was worshipped by the Tiste Edur as "Daughter Dusk", along with her half-sisters Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu. She was a Soletaken, taking the form of a dragon. She had two daughters with Draconus, Spite and Envy.»

Problem is, her mother is a Legion captain who uses her daughter as a whore to reward soldiers. There is no info at this point regarding whether or not Scabandari Bloodeye could be the father, but it is possible. He is a Legion officer, after all. Again, Tiam cannot enter this equation in the time frame we are looking at. In addition, I've already mentioned that, while Draconus has indeed fathered Spite, Envy, and Malice, Sheltatha Lore is not their mother...

We can only hope that SE won't take the path of least resistance and cop out, turning his back on the established Malazan canon...

Only time will tell...

Confusing.

Spoiler

Dammit, I had found the idea of Sheltatha Lore being Spite and Envy's mother, and therefore the sisters perhaps being part Tiste Edur, so fascinating.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

What I find interesting is their age:

Spoiler

So the Tiste were all one race at such as this point... but how old are they? We know they live extremely long lives 'unascended'.... but if we are dealing with the first of the tiste... surely to build their civilisation in Kurald Galain.... they must be hundreds/thousands of years old. When we talk about Anomander Rake as a young man... does that mean like 20-30 years old or like 20-30 thousand years old. This considering the fact that we know Tiste live hundreds of thousands of years up to MBotF... So is a young man - in the tiste way of aging - still really old or young in terms of human age?

This post has been edited by AnomanderRakeSoD: 23 July 2012 - 08:25 AM

[Asharak]

As we know from TCG, Spinnock Durav is a survivor from Kharkanas, and he isn't an ascendant. So they have to have an insanely long life-span.

This post has been edited by Asharak: 23 July 2012 - 10:11 AM

[Silk]

however the long life line post Kharkanas could be the Tiste stubborness against shuffling the mortal coil so to speak as they are aware nothing awaits them after MD turns.... thats not to say that they don't have insane life cycles as it is without this

[pat5150]

Anomander Rake, Silchas Ruin, and Andarist look like they are in their mid- to late twenties in FoD. Considering how long-lived the Tiste are, I have no idea just how old they are...

Patrick

[D'rek]

pat5150, on 22 July 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

Since a lot of people have been asking and since it's not a spoiler per se, here's the major timeline inconsistency I was alluding to:

Spoiler

According to the Malazan wiki, «Sukul Ankhadu was a soletaken Eleint goddess of the Tiste Edur. She was sister to Menandore, and half-sister to Sheltatha Lore. She was the daughter of Tiam and Osserc.»

Problem is, at the beginning of FoD Sukul Ankhadu is already a young woman held as a noble hostage. It is a problem because she appears to be older than Osserc (who could be anywhere between late teenage years and young adulthood). So as things stand, Osserc could not have fathered Sukul Ankhadu. Moreover, at this juncture dragons are just a legend and Tiam remains unknown to the Tiste.

Bizarre...

Another similar inconsistency:

According to the Malazan wiki, «Sheltatha Lore was the Ascendant daughter of Scabandari Bloodeye and Tiam. She was worshipped by the Tiste Edur as "Daughter Dusk", along with her half-sisters Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu. She was a Soletaken, taking the form of a dragon. She had two daughters with Draconus, Spite and Envy.»

Problem is, her mother is a Legion captain who uses her daughter as a whore to reward soldiers. There is no info at this point regarding whether or not Scabandari Bloodeye could be the father, but it is possible. He is a Legion officer, after all. Again, Tiam cannot enter this equation in the time frame we are looking at. In addition, I've already mentioned that, while Draconus has indeed fathered Spite, Envy, and Malice, Sheltatha Lore is not their mother...

We can only hope that SE won't take the path of least resistance and cop out, turning his back on the established Malazan canon...

Only time will tell...

Hrmmmm

Spoiler

After Sukul calls Tiam a dirty ho in MT, Osserc tells her not to speak ill of "her mother - she died giving birth to you" (or something close to that). That's pretty direct information, but I could envision some sort of thing where they have their original mothers, but refer to Tiam as their mother later after they become Soletaken Eleint, if there is some sort of "rebirth" aspect to becoming Soletaken Eleint.

But I can't think of any plausible reason they'd change who they refer to as father, as well, based on the information we have.

Also, Pat, is Malice male or female? If male, then hurray, we finally have a male sibling of Envy whom she could have been referring to way back in MoI when talking about Baaljagg's history.

[pat5150]

About Malice:

Spoiler

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, she is Spite and Envy's younger sister.

[D'rek]

pat5150, on 23 July 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

About Malice:

Spoiler

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, she is Spite and Envy's younger sister.

Spoiler

Damn. Well maybe she'll become friends with Orfantal...

[mostly.harmless]

End of Disc One, on 20 July 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

So this also releases on Kindle July 31. Does anyone know if it's still possible to download this out of region if you change your address?

It did for me before with the Crippled God, so im kinda betting on the same working here

[pat5150]

Just finished Forge of Darkness and I have mixed feelings...

Strong beginning. An even stronger middle. But a somewhat weaker and anticlimactic finish. All of us are used to strong and unbelievable endings, what with all those great convergences. Don't expect anything of the kind of FoD. There is resolution of a sort and it does set the stage for an incredible second volume, but FoD reads like the vast introduction in which a lot of groundwork is laid out. As such, it's no different than most opening chapters in trilogies.

On its own, though it's a good read, when all is said and done, chances are that FoD might be perceived as the weakest installment of this new series. Simply because it's a set-up novel for all the good stuff to come...

Look for my review either tomorrow or on Wednesday.

Patrick

[Defiance]

Sounds exactly like the kind of structure I was expecting, pat. SE did say he was going for a more traditional layout.

[Hetan]

Abalieno, on 19 July 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Personally "fully aware" is everything I'd ask.

But it depends if he was fully aware when he wrote the book or only after

It was a step wise process and Steve's choice - there was some discussion over this and other matters which will upset our current understanding of the history of the Andi. Personally i don't mind it as it's history. You guys are going to have to deal with it and get over it already

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 24 July 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Abalieno, on 19 July 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Personally "fully aware" is everything I'd ask.

But it depends if he was fully aware when he wrote the book or only after

It was a step wise process and Steve's choice - there was some discussion over this and other matters which will upset our current understanding of the history of the Andi. Personally i don't mind it as it's history. You guys are going to have to deal with it and get over it already

Any changes to our existing notions of the Tiste "history" that contradict or are different from the legends and myths we've heard so far are fine by me - goes well with characters in MBotF having different conflicting knowledge because the "known" history of these events in their time is sparse and not always accurate.

On the other hand, there are characters in MBotF who actually lived through these events, so things happening here with one character that contradict the very same character's own memories of the event in MBotF is a bitter harder to swallow... though in some cases I could see some very interesting explanations for the differences

Spoiler

Such as if the differences between how the Andii remember MD and their relation to Light in MBotF is due solely to Rake and the others who lived in Kharkanas before the exodus purposely changing the story (to give the Andii more purpose, as Rake was always trying to do?)

Things like Sukul Ankhadu being a completely different person with different parents might not work so well...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 24 July 2012 - 03:52 PM