Malazan Empire: Anomander Rake --- Draconus : Democratic Hierarchy of Gods - Malazan Empire

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Anomander Rake --- Draconus : Democratic Hierarchy of Gods Please choose who you want to rank higher in power. First Pairing.

Poll: Democratic Hierarchy of the Gods (107 member(s) have cast votes)

Who ranks higher in terms of power? Who would win in battle more often?

  1. Anomander Rake (57 votes [53.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.27%

  2. Draconus (31 votes [28.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.97%

  3. Rank them equal - same tier. (19 votes [17.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.76%

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#61 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:29 PM

 Destiny, on 29 August 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Hmm I seem to recall it being 3 days as well. But I can't possibly say where I read that.

I don't want to give away any spoilers, but FoD changes things a lot about how we see Anomander and Draconus.


I know, everyone always says that they fought for 3 days. Posters quote other posters who say that they read somewhere that they fought for 3 days.
No-one ever actually comes up with the quote to reference it. And I don't think there is one.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 29 August 2012 - 08:29 PM

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#62 User is offline   Brujah 

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:29 PM

 blackzoid, on 29 August 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

 Destiny, on 29 August 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Hmm I seem to recall it being 3 days as well. But I can't possibly say where I read that.

I don't want to give away any spoilers, but FoD changes things a lot about how we see Anomander and Draconus.


I know, everyone always says that they fought for 3 days. Posters quote other posters who say that they read somewhere that they fought for 3 days.
No-one ever actually comes up with the quote to reference it. And I don't think there is one.


I'm not sure, black. It could also have been the Rake Osseric battle that lasted 3 days. I'll try to find the actual passage.
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#63 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:45 PM

You are thinking of this passage perhaps?, and no, there is no reference to 3 days in this passage either. Neither in relation to Draconus or to Osserc.

‘... came upon Osserick, stalwart ally, broken and with blood on his face, struck into
unconsciousness. And Anomander fell to his knees and called upon the Thousand Gods who looked
down upon Osserick and saw the blood on his face. With mercy they struck him awakened and so he
stood.
And so stood Anomander and they faced one another, Light upon Dark, Dark upon Light.
‘Now there was rage in Anomander. “Where is Draconnusl” he demanded of his stalwart ally. For
when Anomander had departed, the evil tyrant Draconnus, Slayer of Eleint, had been by Anomander’s
own hand struck into unconsciousness and there was blood on his face. Osserick, who had taken the
charge of guarding Draconnus, fell to his knees and called upon the Thousand Gods, seeking their mercy
before Anomander’s fury.’
‘I was bested!’ cried Osserick in answer. ‘Caught by Sister Spite unawares! Oh, the Thousand Clods
were turned away, and so was I struck into unconsciousness and see there is blood on my face!’
“One day,” vowed Anomander, and he was then the darkness of a terrible storm, and Osserick
quailed like a sun behind a cloud, “this alliance of ours shall end. Our enmity shall be renewed, O Son of
Light, Child of Light. We shall contest every span of ground, every reach of sky, every spring of sweet
water. We shall battle a thousand times and there shall be no mercy between us. I shall send misery upon
your kin, your daughters. I shall blight their minds with Unknowing Dark. I shall scatter them confused
on realms unknown and there shall be no mercy in their hearts, for between them and the Thousand Gods
there shall ever be a cloud of darkness.”
‘Such was Anomander’s fury, and though he stood alone, Dark upon Light, there was sweetness
hngering in the palm of one hand, from the deceiving touch of Lady Envy. Light upon Dark, Dark upon
Light, two men, wielded as weapons by two sisters, children of Draconnus. Who stood unseen by any
and were pleased by what they saw and all that they heard.
‘It was decided then that Anomander would set out once more, to hunt down the evil tyrant. To
destroy him and his cursed sword which is an abomination in the eyes of the Thousand Gods and all who
kneel to them. Osserick, it was decided, would set out to hunt Spite and exact righteous vengeance.
‘Of the vow spoken by Anomander, Osserick knew the rage from which it was spawned, and in
silence he made vow to answer it in his own time. To spar, to duel, to contest every span of ground, every
reach of sky, and every spring of sweet water. But such matters must needs lie upon calm earth, a seed
awaiting life.
‘This issue with Draconnus remained before them, after all, and now Spite as well. Did not the
Children of Tiam demand punishment! There was blood on the faces of too many Eleint, and so
Anomander and so Osserick had taken on themselves this fated hunt.
‘Could the Eleint have known all that would come of this, they would have withdrawn their
storm-breath, from both Anomander and Osserick. But these fates were not to be known then, and this is
why the Thousand Gods wept.

-----------------------------------------------

‘In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K’rul’s
bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, htust skyward from the towers in
great flurry yet even these were not uuited beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose and red rain
descended upon all the Realms. Jaws fastened upon necks. Talons opened bellies. The breath of chaos
melted flesh from bones.
‘Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more
with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the
Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so
the red rain descended upon all the Realms.
‘Kurald Liosan was the first Realm to seal the portal between itself and Starvald Demelain, and the
tale that follows recounts the slaughter committed by Osserick in cleansing his world of all the pretenders
and rivals, the Soletaken and feral purebloods, even unto driving the very first D’ivers from his land.
‘This begins at the time when Osserick fought Anomander for the sixteenth time and both had blood
on their faces before Kilmandaros, she who speaks with her fists, took upon herself the task of driving
them apart.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Undeceived, Crone cackled. Then she said, ‘My master was most amused at the notion of falling to
his knees and crying out to the Hundred Gods—’
‘Thousand. The Thousand Gods.’
‘Whatever.’ A duck of the head and the wings half spread. ‘Or even making a vow to battle Osserc.
Their alliance fell apart because of a growing mutual dislike. The disaster with Draconus probably
delivered the death-blow. Imagine, falling for a woman’s wiles and a daughter of Draconus at that!
Was Osserc not even remotely suspicious of her motives? Hah! The males among every species in
existence are so ... predictable!’
Baruk smiled. ‘If I recall Fisher’s Anomanaris, Lady Envy managed pretty much the same with your
master, Crone.’
‘Nothing he was unaware of at the time,’ the Great Raven said with a strange clucking sound to
punctuate the statement. ‘My master has always understood the necessity of certain sacrifices.’ She
fluffed up her onyx feathers. ‘Consider the outcome, after all!’

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 29 August 2012 - 09:58 PM

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#64 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:39 PM

It's in Appendix C.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#65 User is offline   Brujah 

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:52 PM

 blackzoid, on 29 August 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

 Destiny, on 29 August 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Hmm I seem to recall it being 3 days as well. But I can't possibly say where I read that.

I don't want to give away any spoilers, but FoD changes things a lot about how we see Anomander and Draconus.


I know, everyone always says that they fought for 3 days. Posters quote other posters who say that they read somewhere that they fought for 3 days.
No-one ever actually comes up with the quote to reference it. And I don't think there is one.


Black, I know this doesn't help, but doing some research I was lead to other sites with threads discussing malaxan character ranks, and two of those used the 'fact' that the 'duel' between rake and Draconus lasted a week. So 3 days or a week, I think there must be something giving birth to these rumors. I'll keep looking.
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you're such an inspiration for the ways that I will never, ever choose to be...
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#66 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:05 PM

3 days to a week!
Hilarious.

No. Again I'm certain there was never any time given for the duel. This is a meme. Don't know where it came from, probably from people trying to "awesome-up" the fight or something. I've just relooked at MoI and TtH. Nothing in there about that.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 29 August 2012 - 11:05 PM

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#67 User is offline   Brujah 

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:58 PM

 blackzoid, on 29 August 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

3 days to a week!
Hilarious.

No. Again I'm certain there was never any time given for the duel. This is a meme. Don't know where it came from, probably from people trying to "awesome-up" the fight or something. I've just relooked at MoI and TtH. Nothing in there about that.


No, I'm not disagreeing. I also fell into the groove of just assuming something I'd heard on another thread as facts from the book. I'll keep looking, and its not just on our site that people are saying this. And I didn't meant to imply I heard anyone say 3 days to a week. I heard 3 days here, and I heard a week on sff site, so I'm the one that said if we have people thinking anywhere from 3 days up to a week, all across different sites, that there must be somethng causing this stuff. I'm still not convinced it wasn't the rake Osseric fight if indeed it was either.

Either way, if we can put this 'fact' to rest, we will.
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you're such an inspiration for the ways that I will never, ever choose to be...
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#68 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:31 AM

Yeah, it's definitely not something that has ever been quoted properly on the site, and people have really looked for it. There's a thread discussing this very thing lying around, and no-one ever produced. That being said, it IS one of those things that several people clearly "remember" reading (myself included) despite not being able to remember much more than that line, which has since become quoted in nearly every single discussion of swordsmanship, Anomander, or Draconus on the entire site! >.< Most likely it is either a meme as you say, or *possibly* it was in a poem somewhere; though that seems unlikely itself, or at least not a reliable source.

The only other thing I can think of is that it *may* have come directly from someone's mouth; either at an interview or a BBQ; thus why it is so oft-remembered. But that's just speculation, at the moment I'd have to say the three-day thing is a meme.
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<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#69 User is offline   Brujah 

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 06:27 AM

Also, on a side note, I believe it was Silencer who made a point about these discussions having been done many times before. I understand that a lot of these discussions are things you guys have already done before, not just once, but many times, and I apologize. But to that I'd like to bring up 3 major points.

One is that It's possible that new information may have been released since the last times these discussions came up. I'm hoping that not only has new information been written, but that it's pertinent to what we're discussing and can actually help resolve some of the major topics.

Second, I think it's kind of cool to have the same topics resurface at a later date, and at certain intervals. I really enjoy discussions like this. I love to hear what other people think of certain characters, especially viewed through their sense of battle prowess. I'm often swayed to one side or the other when someone makes a really good point, and backs it up with facts or quotes from the book. I hope we continue to be able to rediscuss some of these topics every so often, and I hope people don't get too jaded to be willing to discuss things they may have talked about 9 or 10 times now. I think it also helps keep our site relevant when we update our threads to more current discussions.

Thirdly, and most importantly, I REALLY like it when some of you older forum members participate. You guys possess some of the best combined knowledge, and have some really strong opinions, theories, and foresight into the topics at hand. They may seem like old news to many of you, but some of this is still fresh to some of us newer readers. Can some of you older guys remember that feeling you had when you had just read Toll the Hounds? Or were half way through Deadhouse Gates? For some of us, we're still experiencing the series in a fresh sense. We tend to be more excited about ideas that you guys have been over, and know the ins and outs like the back of your hands. But at the same time, when I can get some insight from some of the older members, its brilliant stuff. I love hearing what a lot of you guys have to say on these issues. It also may be that your ideas are in some old thread somewhere, but its still great to see them put back down in a fresh light. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that some of you guys having been pondering and discussing some of the very ideas that I hold so dear, for longer than I've even known the series existed. I only found malazan last year to year and a half ago. I see where some of you guys have been here discussing these things for almost a decade. I know the repetition gets old, or boring, but I REALLY appreciate it when some of you older members share your thoughts on some of my threads. Im just at the point where I'm still all giddy about Malazan. I love it. I love to debate and talk about it. I love rehashing some of these old ideas and to see them in fresh lights. So please, I beseach you guys, continue to share your insight with us. I find it priceless, and I thank you.
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you're such an inspiration for the ways that I will never, ever choose to be...
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#70 User is offline   Vaddon Ra 

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:46 PM

People have got to stop claiming that Dragnipur = win. Dragnipur is a cursed badass weapon for sure, but it wont enhance say, a character like tehol beddict to suddenly being able to cleave face. Anomanders power with the sword comes from millenia of practicing, his inherent strength and rage with his draconic blood and his iron will which is what defines the power of his uber sword (made in FOD) which can only truly 'live' in the hands of one who's will is pure, iron etc etc.
Anomander Rake is man enough to bear the burden of Dragnipur, and he's the only person truly worthy to hold it, like Brood with the hammer and Greymane with his Giant Face Cleaving world splitter.
Draconus, although losing this poll, is my firm favourite. He was godlike first, he made the stupid sword in the first place and I'm expecting his death (if SE writes it, and please please please please) wont be simply oh Anomander is just way better.

We shall have to see :rolleyes:
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#71 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 09:52 PM

 Vaddon Ra, on 30 August 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

People have got to stop claiming that Dragnipur = win. Dragnipur is a cursed badass weapon for sure, but it wont enhance say, a character like tehol beddict to suddenly being able to cleave face. Anomanders power with the sword comes from millenia of practicing, his inherent strength and rage with his draconic blood and his iron will which is what defines the power of his uber sword (made in FOD) which can only truly 'live' in the hands of one who's will is pure, iron etc etc.
Anomander Rake is man enough to bear the burden of Dragnipur, and he's the only person truly worthy to hold it, like Brood with the hammer and Greymane with his Giant Face Cleaving world splitter.
Draconus, although losing this poll, is my firm favourite. He was godlike first, he made the stupid sword in the first place and I'm expecting his death (if SE writes it, and please please please please) wont be simply oh Anomander is just way better.

We shall have to see :rolleyes:


Tehol Beddict would have never been able to take Dragnipur from Draconus in the first place so invalid example.

Sorry but you don't have a workable point here, it's just bluster. Try harder :)

#72 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:00 AM

Sure, Draconus made the sword. He apparently is really good at making badass weapons.

Anomander then killed him with it. Or rather, trapped his soul in it. Would have killed him with any other blade.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 31 August 2012 - 12:01 AM

Laseen did nothing wrong.

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#73 User is offline   suqleg 

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

this feels like A popularity contest to me more than a power ranking. Rake is probably the most capable being i have ever encountered in literature. Draconus by contrast had what i feel is the foresight to ensure if his blade was going to be turned on him and succumb to the Kallor curse, he ensures his sword it ended up in the hands of the one he found most worthy. I do not even think of Krul/Nightchill/Tiam/ and I would put Draconus into this category should be ranked on power, they are beings beyond power they serve an elemental (aspected) purpose and in such are beyond measurement.
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#74 User is offline   Brujah 

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:43 AM

 Destiny, on 29 August 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Hmm I seem to recall it being 3 days as well. But I can't possibly say where I read that.

I don't want to give away any spoilers, but FoD changes things a lot about how we see Anomander and Draconus.


Well, I still haven't gotten around to this series but I'm curious if it changed anything afterall? Is it any clearer as to who would defeat who? Less clear? The same?
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#75 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:19 AM

Bruj, if you haven't read FoD, what are you doing posting here instead of reading it?! It's got Draconus being all imposing, and his terrible children being terrible and lots more.
Laseen did nothing wrong.

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#76 User is offline   Brujah 

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:48 AM

Wow. I was re-reading this thread, along with all the other Round One Pairings, and had almost forgotten just how many kick ass posts there were, and by so many different people.

Mal and Apt were kick-ass, especially. Those were some great fn' posts. And we also had some really good stuff from Ivan, Silencer, blackzoid, Sinisdar, etc. And Kanese is one of the best contributers to all the Pairings across the board.

Good re-read. Great job, everyone.
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#77 User is offline   Vaddon Ra 

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:15 PM

 Malaclypse, on 30 August 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

 Vaddon Ra, on 30 August 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

People have got to stop claiming that Dragnipur = win. Dragnipur is a cursed badass weapon for sure, but it wont enhance say, a character like tehol beddict to suddenly being able to cleave face. Anomanders power with the sword comes from millenia of practicing, his inherent strength and rage with his draconic blood and his iron will which is what defines the power of his uber sword (made in FOD) which can only truly 'live' in the hands of one who's will is pure, iron etc etc.
Anomander Rake is man enough to bear the burden of Dragnipur, and he's the only person truly worthy to hold it, like Brood with the hammer and Greymane with his Giant Face Cleaving world splitter.
Draconus, although losing this poll, is my firm favourite. He was godlike first, he made the stupid sword in the first place and I'm expecting his death (if SE writes it, and please please please please) wont be simply oh Anomander is just way better.

We shall have to see Posted Image


Tehol Beddict would have never been able to take Dragnipur from Draconus in the first place so invalid example.

Sorry but you don't have a workable point here, it's just bluster. Try harder Posted Image


Fine.... Give Dragnipur to Urko Crust or someone leet badass.... still wont suddenly make them beat draconus just be virtue of having it... sod it, give it to Karsa Orlong... STILL wont make him suddenly even better than he already is... If SE writes about Dragnipur and states that it does in fact enhance your speed, strength etc and the weilders will can empower it further then of course I will retract all of my thoughts on the weapon... it's very cool no doubt... but, it has never been stated to tip the favour in a fight... it's just a damn scary weapon that takes souls is what it is. It's not a light sabre :p it doesn't cleave through anything
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#78 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:46 AM

Dragnipur gives its wielder the advantage of any cut bringing victory, but that's all.

I don't think it gives its wielder any other significant edge. In fact, in some ways it may be a detriment, given that it's always been written as being a terrible burden to bear, very stressful to even be around, let alone hold.
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#79 User is offline   RSM616 

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 02:04 PM

just going through these old threads, having the information from the two Tiste books. It would be interesting to see who comes out on top now. Knowing what i now do about them both. I think although Anomander is insanley strong,and my favourite character, my money would now be on Draconus
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#80 User is offline   AnomandarisP 

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 02:36 PM

Also, Rake didn't kill Draconus, he merely trapped him inside Dragnipur.
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