[QuickTidal]

Shiara, on 06 September 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Here we go again with the Dresden comparisons

Well, in our defense, the author references Dresden himself...

...and for Dresdencrackheads like me... EVERY urban fantasy is held up to the Dresden-yardstick.

[Shiara]

Yeah, references Dresden, and later pokes a hole in Dresden's "The less you know, the safer you'll be" theory

[alt146]

Having read only the first book, my main problem is that anything to do with timetravel type stuff is incredibly hard to keep consistent and I don't think Jackta quite pulls it off. Versus's ability is really that he can see as far as is needed for the plot to progress, but not far enough to destroy dramatic tension. There's some handwaving about how you can't see past someone making a decision, but even by that logic, there are things that Versus was able to see that he shouldn't really have been able to, and other things that he should have been able to see but couldn't. I realise it's a particular nitpick of mine, but I'm hesitant to continue the series if it will keep irritating me.

[polishgenius]

Just finished the second book, I enjoyed that equally as much as the first. There were things that annoyed - the overall plot was very similar to the first one, moreso than tends to be the case even in Dresden book-to-book, and Verus' habit of having just the right item on him can be a bit eye-rolling when it's not foreshadowed that said item will be useful, but it's all very fun and I'm liking the hints to the longer story. I particularly enjoy the aspect about how

Spoiler

Verus is a total bastard when the going gets tough. It did strike me very early that his constant protests of 'I'm not a battle mage' were a bit tenuous and was glad when the book addressed it directly.

The last is why I find the comment above that Verus is less of a dick than Dresden kind of odd - he might be more aimable in the day to day and less of a whiner, but he does things very casually that cause Dresden major angst if he'd ever do them at all. It's the main thing, apart from the different nature of Verus' powers, that does differentiate this series from Dresden...


I wouldn't quite put this up there with Kate Griffin or Mike Carey in the 'London-set urban fantasies' just yet, but I reckon it's in Carey's league and hopefully it'll reach the levels Carey did with books four and five. Will pick up the third soon.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 16 September 2012 - 12:22 PM

[QuickTidal]

Shiara, on 07 September 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Yeah, references Dresden, and later pokes a hole in Dresden's "The less you know, the safer you'll be" theory

Sorry Shiara, that doesn't make him right.

[Binder of Demons]

Just read the 3rd book TAKEN, and if you enjoyed the first 2 at all, then you'll enjoy this too. Verus is a pretty cool character, and his magical ability if a welcome relief from the usual supernatural skill sets we get in fantasy series. And it's also nice, as PG says above, that when Verus gets going he's an uncompromising git.

I particularly like the potential development of Luna's talent which is the very definition of a wild card for this series.

But my main gripe so far, is that I don't feel like there is a long game at play here. Yet. Which is another reason why the Dresden comparisons are so problematic.

[champ]

Binder of Demons, on 16 September 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

But my main gripe so far, is that I don't feel like there is a long game at play here. Yet. Which is another reason why the Dresden comparisons are so problematic.

That was my thought after reading the third book too, I enjoyed it but felt that it was much of the same as the other two with not much progress in the long game. I will stick with it though as it's decent enough to keep my interest.

Interestingly, with the nod to Dresden in the first book, I've been rereading Dresden and came across this in White Night - spoilered but doesn't give any Dresden plot away - just relevant with Alex Verus and his Powers, could have been an influence...

Spoiler

Quote

"Then how did she know what we were about to say?" "My guess is that she's prescient," I said.
...
People like her can sense a… sort of a cloud of possible futures. We were in a fairly predictable situation here even without bringing any magical talents into it, basic social interaction, so it looked like she saw exactly what was coming. But she didn't. She got to judge what was most probable, and it wasn't hard to guess correctly in this particular instance." "That's why she seemed so distracted," Murphy said thought fully.
"Yeah. She was keeping track of what was happening, what was likely to happen, deciding what wasn't likely to happen, all in a window of a few seconds." I shook my head. "It's a lot worse if they can see any farther than a second or two."
Murphy frowned. "Why?"
"Because the farther you can see, the more possibilities exist," I said. "Think of a chess game. A beginning player is doing well if he can see four or five moves into the game. Ten moves in holds an exponentially greater number of possible configurations the board could assume. Master players can sometimes see even further than that—and when you start dealing with computers, the numbers are even bigger. It's difficult to even imagine the scope of it."

Also came across this conversation between Butcher and Jacka...

http://bookclubs.bar...xt/ba-p/1300917

Third of the way down the page!

[Shiara]

polishgenius, on 16 September 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

The last is why I find the comment above that Verus is less of a dick than Dresden kind of odd - he might be more aimable in the day to day and less of a whiner, but he does things very casually that cause Dresden major angst if he'd ever do them at all. It's the main thing, apart from the different nature of Verus' powers, that does differentiate this series from Dresden...

I think you misunderstand what I meant by calling Dresden a dick.

Spoiler

In the first couple of books he is deliberately rude, unreasonable and argumentative, and I'm not talking about his interactions with enemies - he treats allies and friends condescendingly, even yells at Ebenezar when he steps in to try and help with the Council. That, to me, is dickish.

Don't get me wrong, I'm up to White Night and am really enjoying the series now, but he really did start out quite irritating.

Verus, on the other hand, is polite, respectful and generally a nice enough guy. But if you cross the line, by god he will make you regret it. It's not that he doesn't have a moral code, it's more that he has no compunctions about hitting back, HARD. Which is, honestly, kind of refreshing.

Spoiler

Meanwhile, Dresden leaves the Winter Knight, Lloyd Slate, subject to what is arguably one of the more terrible fates described in the Dresden books, despite having the power to put the man out of his misery. He consciously turns away having judged that this man deserved it. And somehow, by your definition, this is LESS dickish than Verus murdering a man with the very bomb the man in question was setting to Ranall not only Verus but his companion?

QuickTidal, on 16 September 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Shiara, on 07 September 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Yeah, references Dresden, and later pokes a hole in Dresden's "The less you know, the safer you'll be" theory

Sorry Shiara, that doesn't make him right.

Sorry QT, that doesn't make him wrong, either.

It's an easy way for the writer to create conflict between characters that might not have otherwise been at odds. And it happens so often in the first couple of Dresden books that, in my opinion, it verges on laziness. That isn't to say it can't be used at all ever, only that it is something you'd expect a character to learn from when it blows up in his face again and again.


As an aside, if this is a debate that needs to be taken elsewhere, please go ahead and Mod-move it to the Butcher forum.

[QuickTidal]

Shiara, on 17 September 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Verus, on the other hand, is polite, respectful and generally a nice enough guy. But if you cross the line, by god he will make you regret it. It's not that he doesn't have a moral code, it's more that he has no compunctions about hitting back, HARD. Which is, honestly, kind of refreshing.

Within the first 30 pages...and I quote Verus(to Luna): "Be a good girl."...Luna: "Don't tell me to be a good girl."....Verus: "Don't argue. Be a good girl"

Yeah. Not dickish or condescending at all. Very respectful.

Quote

It's an easy way for the writer to create conflict between characters that might not have otherwise been at odds. And it happens so often in the first couple of Dresden books that, in my opinion, it verges on laziness. That isn't to say it can't be used at all ever, only that it is something you'd expect a character to learn from when it blows up in his face again and again.

Eh, I'd buy that if he didn't step back on the trope within pages of calling attention to it. Again, with Luna he basically talks about how leaving people in the dark is worse than trying to protect them by telling them stuff (like you said)....and then about a chapter later he decides to leave Luna in the dark and tells her to stay put and not ask about certain things because she's better off not knowing. No seriously, it's there in the first 50 pages. I'm surprised you missed it enough to stand up about it being something Jacka doesn't do...and yet he totally does.

I mean, Verus is a walking contradiction in that regard.

That said, as I mentioned in the "Reading" thread, I've gotten back into the book now and am quite enjoying it (enough to nearly miss my stop on the subway). It's still no Dresden yet, but it's better than Aaronovich's UF series and a lot of UF stuff out there. So I like it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 17 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

[QuickTidal]

So I'm over the halfway point and now I can see where the notion that as a first book it's better than both STORM FRONT and FOOL MOON, it actually is...but that's basically up to the immersion into the world and worldbuilding on the whole on Jacka's part. Basically for being readable, this 1st book is on par with GRAVE PERIL for me. The supernatural world is nearly immediately opened up on many angles as opposed to the (dark sorcerer, werewolf, nightmare creature) progression Butcher gave to Dresden's world at the beginning.

So yeah, worth the read, as good as some Dresden. I doubt I'll ever think it's BETTER than Dresden, but it's certainly on its way to being my second fave UF series (having already easily unseated Aaronovich from his position in my list), so at least I can now vouch for the endorsements that it is very good and is indeed quite addictive.

I'm going to be near the bookstore tonight and might go pick up books 2 and 3 based on the quality of the first half of this one.

Oh, and as an aside, in case people were curious if there are going to be more after the first 3 books....apparently there are as both Orbit UK and US sales have been good enough for two more to be commissioned. Which is good news. He mentions the cancelling of Harry Connelly's UF series (which was not a good series, trust me on this), and so it's nice to see people paying attention to the good authors.

Read here:
http://benedictjacka...rus-the-future/

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 September 2012 - 01:14 PM

[QuickTidal]

Finished FATED. Very good all told, definitely worthy of the "Fans of Butcher will like this" moniker. I bought the 2nd and 3rd books last night and will get to them in the future.

My only real issues (aside from a myriad of typos...more-so than I'd expect in an ACE book) have to do with the epilogue portion of the ending:

Spoiler

The final battle inside the artifact and the mental battle with Abithriax was great and a solid ending....but then we get only one small chapter as an epilogue to other plot strands. Like I can accept that Morden would allow Verus to go off and do his own thing again, even if I'm curious as to what will happen with Cinder and Rachel....but the chapter with Levistus shows him to be the type to not let his desire for the fateweaver go so easily, even with Thirteen dead (is she dead?), I would have expected to see him show up to rattle Verus' cage again. It's almost like a too quick back to the status-quo ending I guess?

It's a small niggle, but I noticed it. It doesn't bear on my desire to read the other two books though

[QuickTidal]

Here is my full review of the first book

http://icebergink.bl...dict-jacka.html

[Pig Iron]

Just read all three back to back, great fun. Soothes my Dresden cravings in a very nice way, but I think he can stand on his own quite well too. The tone is fairly dark actually, and as said above Verus is in some ways a colder character than Dresden though not in an unpleasant way. Fantastic action sequences. Can't wait for "Chosen", coming in september.

[polishgenius]

So the fourth book in this series just came out. It's very good. It takes a step back from the usual work-for-hire structure of the series so far to delve into things from Verus' past, and makes the series a lot more interesting going forward for it. Really sets out the Alex Verus stall in terms of his comparison to the Dresdens, Swifts and Castors of the world, and it also gives some of the supporting characters a chance to shine. Me likey.

[champ]

Ah nice, I was debating when to get this book and I just may now get it sooner, looking forward to it!

[Cause]

The OP Blasphemes!

Still Im off to buy them all

[Cause]

Okay finished book one.

Not Great not terrible. Since that is what I thought of the first Dresden Novel I guess we will continue and see what becomes of it. For me the Shout out to Dresden and the familiarity between the two series was at times worrying. The back story of both characters is unnervingly familiar, I don't know whether it would bother me so much if the author had not basically said he was a fan of the Dresden files in the first five pages of the novel. This work is beyond fan fiction certainly but those two things created a negative reaction in me which may be unfair but happened nonetheless.

The other criticism I have is that the way Jakta right, and perhaps unfairly I must contrast here with the Dresden files, makes his world come across like a video game. I cant put my finger on why his writing bothers me when say the Dresden files does not, but the way Jakta speaks of mages, fire mages, air mages, ice mages, diviners and so forth makes me feel everything is too clean cut. Battle mage rank 7, equipped with two one-shots, a rare imbued item and six levels in elemental fire attacks for 30-46 fire damage. Too much exposition too soon perhaps.

Still certainly a decent enough beginning, the Dresden files have just as rocky a start and I see potential.

[Abyss]

I enjoyed bk 1 enough to grab 2 2nd hand and 3 on sale. They remain in my TRPFH, close to the top, sort of dueling with the KETTY JAY series for what i read after my current milSF run.

The writing was not brilliant, more or less standard first person semi-YA angst type, but with enough of a voice to hold my interest.

His futureview powers were played a bit fast and loose, but explained well enough that it didn't trouble me. The mandatory martial arts training was a bit of a gimmee, but i could let that pass as it made sence within the characters history and he doesn't pretend to be Bruce Lee.

The supporting cast varied from fun (the air elemental) to decent (Luna), but i really enjoyed the villains.

[amphibian]

amphibian, on 26 June 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

I don't have that problem. I basically have caught up to everything except the Vorkosigian series and the Vlad Taltos series. This will be a "try out" for me.

Such hubris I had back then. My TRP isn't going to raise any eyebrows in size comparisons on this forum, but it's gone decidedly away from SF in the past year. Thus, it took me a while to loop around to these Jacka books.

Use Of Weapons, on 27 July 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Not as good. Not as well written. More YA in feel (not that that is a bad thing in and of itself), so the depth of theme isn't as evident as even early Dresden. Characterisation probably on a par for Alex, but sorely lacking for the other characters. And the sense of place that brings Chicago to life in Dresden is not there for Jacka's London. He could take tips from Kate Griffin on how to make London sing.

I agree with this - with the caveat that they're still fun books to read. I ran through the four books in a weekend and didn't mind the time/$ spent at all.

Jacka shows the geography of London well, but honestly, he shows next to zero interaction with any citizens of London outside the worst customers a retail shopkeeper can have. There's not much direct interaction with the soul of London, so to speak - while there's plenty of time spent on the geography. The UK character does come through once he starts moving the set pieces outside of London, although they're done in less dramatic fashion than Butcher prefers.

Throughout the series, it is apparent that Jacka is developing as a writer in leaving open ends and building in slow reveals into his characters. The Deleo mystery is truly nice to behold unfolding, but it and other longer running storylines suffered for a while due to the at times clumsy methods Jacka used in setting up Chekov's guns and potential Chekov's guns or throwaway bits unresolved as of yet. Butcher is kind of unique in that he really built that ability up in a hurry with the Alera/Dresden cycles letting him get 4 or 5 books under his belt before the Chekov's guns had to come into the fray and do so nicely (for the writer, not the characters). It's tough to compare a nice, fun author (Jacka) to the gold standard in the sub-genre (Butcher), but thems the stakes.

At times, Verus takes a bit of a ding as a character to follow along with because Jacka keeps him largely in the dark about the real goings on magically or politically, with no "Bob"-like figure to really work with. It's much more like Alexander Verus is a slightly more lethal version of Longshot from the comic books, with a more restricted power set, and he's got access to the shittier versions of Giles/Wesley and shittier versions of the mutant allies while dealing with the crap the world throws at him mostly by himself. It's fun to read, but the Verus pipeline portions are not going to really stimulate the Dresdencrack receptors we've developed to the full heights we're used to.

I think I'll try the Griffin books and see how those go. After I read the more serious (meaning depressing histories of discrimination and awful things visited upon real people by other real people) books on my TRP high priority list.

[Pig Iron]

amphibian, on 10 June 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

amphibian, on 26 June 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

I don't have that problem. I basically have caught up to everything except the Vorkosigian series and the Vlad Taltos series. This will be a "try out" for me.

Such hubris I had back then. My TRP isn't going to raise any eyebrows in size comparisons on this forum, but it's gone decidedly away from SF in the past year. Thus, it took me a while to loop around to these Jacka books.

Use Of Weapons, on 27 July 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Not as good. Not as well written. More YA in feel (not that that is a bad thing in and of itself), so the depth of theme isn't as evident as even early Dresden. Characterisation probably on a par for Alex, but sorely lacking for the other characters. And the sense of place that brings Chicago to life in Dresden is not there for Jacka's London. He could take tips from Kate Griffin on how to make London sing.

I agree with this - with the caveat that they're still fun books to read. I ran through the four books in a weekend and didn't mind the time/$ spent at all.

Jacka shows the geography of London well, but honestly, he shows next to zero interaction with any citizens of London outside the worst customers a retail shopkeeper can have. There's not much direct interaction with the soul of London, so to speak - while there's plenty of time spent on the geography. The UK character does come through once he starts moving the set pieces outside of London, although they're done in less dramatic fashion than Butcher prefers.

Throughout the series, it is apparent that Jacka is developing as a writer in leaving open ends and building in slow reveals into his characters. The Deleo mystery is truly nice to behold unfolding, but it and other longer running storylines suffered for a while due to the at times clumsy methods Jacka used in setting up Chekov's guns and potential Chekov's guns or throwaway bits unresolved as of yet. Butcher is kind of unique in that he really built that ability up in a hurry with the Alera/Dresden cycles letting him get 4 or 5 books under his belt before the Chekov's guns had to come into the fray and do so nicely (for the writer, not the characters). It's tough to compare a nice, fun author (Jacka) to the gold standard in the sub-genre (Butcher), but thems the stakes.

At times, Verus takes a bit of a ding as a character to follow along with because Jacka keeps him largely in the dark about the real goings on magically or politically, with no "Bob"-like figure to really work with. It's much more like Alexander Verus is a slightly more lethal version of Longshot from the comic books, with a more restricted power set, and he's got access to the shittier versions of Giles/Wesley and shittier versions of the mutant allies while dealing with the crap the world throws at him mostly by himself. It's fun to read, but the Verus pipeline portions are not going to really stimulate the Dresdencrack receptors we've developed to the full heights we're used to.

I think I'll try the Griffin books and see how those go. After I read the more serious (meaning depressing histories of discrimination and awful things visited upon real people by other real people) books on my TRP high priority list.

Good summary, agree with all of it. I have not been able to get into any non-Butcher-UF besides the Carey-Aaronovitch-Jacka trio.