[Ampelas]

Karosis, on 20 June 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

I can't help but coming back to Ampelas. He only gave us a reason for his Anomandaris vote today after we had asked. He told us it was just as good a vote as any at the time. Let's have a look at where the votes were (this is the first Path Shaper message after his vote)

So there are a a couple of better places he could have put his vote. The case on Korv was STARTING to pick up steam by that point, and Meanas had a vote on Amp, but rather than either of those, he plops a vote on Anomandaris. I guess my biggest problem with all of this is the following line:

Why would ANYONE have followed his vote on Anomandaris? His reasoning for his vote was as follows:

Ampelas, on 18 June 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Right, I've just realised I'm not going to be around at all for the next 22 hours or so, so I'm placing my vote now.

Vote Anomandaris

Because he's the killer. Duh.

That's not a case. That's a lazy "I'm not going to be around" vote.

Aside from his less than stellar defense, however, Ampelas has pretty much contributed nothing to the thread besides OMGUSing about the Korbas lynch, blah blah blah. So, for now, I will...

vote Ampelas


Editted: added Amp's name to the part about Meanas' vote to make clear what I was saying

I've cut and clumped some of Ano's comments in one here.

First, NO case had picked up steam yet. The votes were only trickling in. It would be hours yet before any individuals started having votes poured on them. So no, there were no other more useful places to put my vote, particularly as I didn't agree with any of the cases put forward at that point. I should vote for something I don't agree with? Sure, if we need to get a lynch and time is running out. But this was still very early in the day, with many many hours left. So no, I don't agree with just piling on my vote on whoever had the most at the time. Now that would have been stupid of me.

Was my vote useful? No.

But then neither were the votes that led to the lynch of Korbas.

Should I have given my reasoning then and there for the Ano vote? Maybe.

But my reasoning, which I belatedly gave to you, was weak and arbitrary in any case. So would it have made a difference? Probably not.

Was my vote a 'lazy' vote? Decidedly not.

The lazy thing to do would have been to vote for the person/s with the most votes at the time, especially when I didn't agree with it.


So far, the only true points you guys have made against me is that I have been a low contributor. This is true. Time constraints etc. The rest about my vote and supposed changes in patterns of play are ridiculous fictitions which have been made up in order to add more 'meat' to any case on me. But they don't hold up.

[Karosis]

Anthras, on 20 June 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

well i just mentioned what i saw.
and remove that vote by the way,maybe he has some answers we haven't seen on the thread for ourselves.(and cut him some slack,he says he has had a dentist appointment and those are not fun)

Screw that, self-voting pisses me off. And going to the dentist is no excuse to rage quit. The case on Korvalain is good enough for me, though I like my case on Ampelas better.

[Eloth]

Anthras, on 20 June 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And i just noticed something else:(which made me get the reasoning behind Korv vote)
in last days lynch Korbas was behind Korv by my vote until several people (Eloth,Atrahal,Liosan ,Karosis )
suddenly voted and lynched him.So it probably means that Korv was scum and other scum rallied support for one of two other guys who had the potential for vote and it means that at least 1 of four last votes on Korb was
scum.(probably the symp)
So for now:

Vote Korvalain

Read up. This has been covered by several people.

[Anthras]

Korvalain, on 20 June 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Omtose, on 20 June 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

For those of you who are saying the omtose case has merit or is good or whatever, would you please elaborate as to why?


Elaborating on your assertion would be good for two reasons.

1) It will help you to sound out your thinking and prove that you aren't being a sheeple.

2) You will immediately become aware of the following :



2 reasons why the Omtose case makes no sense.

1) It is predicated on the idea that I was being smooth and non-confrontational. If you actually look at my play, especially in relation to the play of others, you will realzie this is a completely made up falsehood.

2) It also is based on me steering the lynch away from Korbas. OMG! I didn't vote for the town finder! LYNCH ME NOU! In reality, I did what any normal mafia player does - I looked at two weak day 1 cases and decided one had more merit than the other. It aint rocket science.


That's all I'm going to say about the subject. I'm giong to do a re-read and see if anyone else jumps out at me. I'm at work though, so don't expect it immediately.

But you see Omtose, this is exactly your sticky situation.

From my point of view, people like Fener (completely off on his own having fun stirring up trouble), Liosan (very confrontational not really playing with the rest of the team), and Anthras (practically begging for a lynch, to the point of it being embarrassing) drop lower in my suspect pool because they are doing things that are considered very scummy, and risking their hides as a result. In my experience, only the really clever roled players or the uninhibited RIs tend to act like this.

You are playing smooth compared to these, correct? Am I wrong in saying you are acting helpful, demonstrating open doubt in lynch trains even so far as to say that someone is probably inno, but you'll vote to push through the lynch anyways?

Look at it another way: Liosan, Fener, and Amp all stayed off the lynch train till the bitter end, holding onto their pet theories. This doesn't exclude them from being scum, but I'll bet you dollars to pounds that scum is more likely on the trains than on the single cases (hence my suspicion of Eloth).

Anyways, this continues to be stream of consciousness, dangerous but I think well worth the effort. And please, argue back. Harrumps like Korv do no one any good

Since you ask nicely, I'll reply. I'm on a short break right now, so I haven't had time to read back yet and I'll keep this brief.



I realize I have a bias because I'm the target in this case, but I feel that making a case based on a belief of how scum may or may not play this game is a great way to clutter up a thread with WIFOM. When we get away from evidence created by action or inaction and how that ties to motive, we can make just about any case we want about "how scum might play". It wouldn't be a stretch to see the argument "Someone who brings up speculation on how scum would play is probably scum!"



Helpful, demonstrating doubt at someone's guilt but willing to vote to get a lynch? Yes, I am guilty of those things, but basing a decision of town or scum on that is going to get a lot of townies lynched from game to game.


One thing I should do is explain why I voted for Korv and stayed with that vote, since I'll admit I wasn't really as clear on that. I didnt actually like the initial case by Atrahal, but I wanted to apply pressure to Korv. Now, I can't very well apply pressure by adding a vote while poo-pooing the case at the same time, so I left it vague. I mean, if you go out and announce that it's a shaky case right away, why would anyone feel obligated to defend themselves against it? Keeping my vote there allowed me to see Korv's reaction, and to observe how the votes fell afterwards.


I didn't switch to Korbas, because both were so close in votes as things were getting more tense. I knew that a vote switch at that time from one of the two to the other could potentially act as the swing vote which determined who would get lynched, which in fact happened once Atrahal switched. I was using my vote and keeping an eye on the trains as a way of gleaning information - hence my case on Eloth/Korv now, since the way things went raised red flags for me.


edit: deleted a negative which created the opposite meaning than I intended.

The problem with this line of reasoning is: What are you going to do when you lynch me and I cf as town? Unless of course, you're on the scum team and this works in your favor. It would have been better for town if you had lynched me Day 1 and moved forward. If this wasn't a mini game, we could afford a couple days worth of wrong lynches and still recover, but its not and we can't, so instead you're going to pursue the same day 1 crap, lynch another town and the killers take out YET ANOTHER TOWNIE. Good plan. Anyways, I'm going to bed.

In last 2 pages this is the only thing worth being called a defense that you have said.In my opinion its only WIFOM.what if this,what if that

[Eloth]

Hath-Daper, on 20 June 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

It is Day 2. 7 hours and 41 minutes remaining

11 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korvalain, Liosan, Omtose

6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Ampelas ( Liosan, Karosis )
4 Votes for Korvalain ( Omtose, Driss, Anomandaris, Fener )
1 Vote for Omtose ( Eloth )

-Liz

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Ok, I'm on lunch and am running out of time myself. But here is what I'm thinking: I agree that Amp is playing dodgy. I thought he was just waiting for Day 2 to get rolling, and seemed so at the start of this day. However, with the "Here" and gone posting, I agree that he is not really being all that helpful and comes across as avoidant. That being said, I am really curious about this connection made between Amp and Korv.

This was one of the things I hadn't caught on day 1 when I was trying to establish some connection between Korv and another player. Instead of Korv having someone who defended him against the lynch train, he instead seemed to have the perfect distancing move in voting for Amp and removing that vote. And now he can agree that Amp was annoying and changed behavors without much "connection" because after all, he put pressure on Amp and even voted for him.

Korv's distancing and Amp's lack of useful voting (including not voting for Korv) I think puts a pretty convincing connection in place. However, I'm unsure which one is more likely the killer if they both aren't killers. The thing that throws me is Korv's bluster and blundering posts. And Amp is a low poster who is getting a lot of attention as well, which bothers me. I am more inclined to think at least one scum will be leading the charge and trying to be a "good, hardworking" townie.

There is enough though right now to convince me that Korv is still a good bet, even after being given all of Day 2 to redeem himself (same chance was given to Amp as well, with disappointing results...). Once again, I think we were spot on in sensing abnormalities on day 1, so I'm ready to follow through.

Vote Korvalain.

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Remove vote

I'll definitely be back in 7 hours, so I don't want to lose that time for discussion (L-1 is too close and Korv is around. I want to hear what he has to say, esp about Amp)

Anthras, on 20 June 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And i just noticed something else:(which made me get the reasoning behind Korv vote)
in last days lynch Korbas was behind Korv by my vote until several people (Eloth,Atrahal,Liosan ,Karosis )
suddenly voted and lynched him.So it probably means that Korv was scum and other scum rallied support for one of two other guys who had the potential for vote and it means that at least 1 of four last votes on Korb was
scum.(probably the symp)
So for now:

Vote Korvalain

Korvalain, on 20 June 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Frankly I'm getting sick of defending myself. And if I defend myself then I'm accused of scrambling, and if I don't then I'm avoiding the issue. I don't feel like we are making any real progress against team scum because of this, and I'll be damned if I want to spend another day doing this.

Good fucking luck. Go fuck yourselves.

vote Korvalain

By my count this is a lynch. So there is that.

[Ampelas]

D, on 20 June 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I've looked back at your case on Amp, and trawled the thread for his posts. There aren't many of them. I do see your point, some things Amp has said have really stuck out to me, in particular that vote and the reasoning behind it. He is saying basically that he hat-picked two middle-range posters and decided which was scummier. His small spate of posts has shown that he can contribute when pressed, and I really do not believe anyone who says there is nothing to comment on, even on day one.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. I had little time and that was the option left to me. I would do it again in the same situation, with nothing that had been said at that point sticking out for me.

Sure I can contribute, I'm not a moron. But I am also not someone who spams the thread. If I see something worth commenting on, I'll do it. Speaking of which, I have to say you guys have posted some great stuff this day, and I'll be commenting on it just as soon as I finish responding to all this fan mail

[Anthras]

Well the second post wasn't mentioned anywhere.and first post was in answer to my own question.

[Eloth]

Anthras, on 20 June 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Remove vote


cause we still have time and boy that lynch would be bad.
and Korv ,if you can explain to me why the train suddenly turned i will be very happy.
(or other players on the turned train)

Karosis, on 20 June 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Korvalain, on 20 June 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Frankly I'm getting sick of defending myself. And if I defend myself then I'm accused of scrambling, and if I don't then I'm avoiding the issue. I don't feel like we are making any real progress against team scum because of this, and I'll be damned if I want to spend another day doing this.

Good fucking luck. Go fuck yourselves.

vote Korvalain

Gods, if you don't want to play Mafia, then don't fucking sign up for a game asshat. Self-voting is just about the stupidest thing anyone can do - it's like "Wahhhhh, things aren't going my way so I'm going to rage quit"

remove vote
vote Korvalain

Cause you're a baby

Both of these remove vote and vote are too late. Korv hammered himself. Probably town.

[Karosis]

Eloth, on 20 June 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Hath-Daper, on 20 June 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

It is Day 2. 7 hours and 41 minutes remaining

11 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korvalain, Liosan, Omtose

6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Ampelas ( Liosan, Karosis )
4 Votes for Korvalain ( Omtose, Driss, Anomandaris, Fener )
1 Vote for Omtose ( Eloth )

-Liz

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Ok, I'm on lunch and am running out of time myself. But here is what I'm thinking: I agree that Amp is playing dodgy. I thought he was just waiting for Day 2 to get rolling, and seemed so at the start of this day. However, with the "Here" and gone posting, I agree that he is not really being all that helpful and comes across as avoidant. That being said, I am really curious about this connection made between Amp and Korv.

This was one of the things I hadn't caught on day 1 when I was trying to establish some connection between Korv and another player. Instead of Korv having someone who defended him against the lynch train, he instead seemed to have the perfect distancing move in voting for Amp and removing that vote. And now he can agree that Amp was annoying and changed behavors without much "connection" because after all, he put pressure on Amp and even voted for him.

Korv's distancing and Amp's lack of useful voting (including not voting for Korv) I think puts a pretty convincing connection in place. However, I'm unsure which one is more likely the killer if they both aren't killers. The thing that throws me is Korv's bluster and blundering posts. And Amp is a low poster who is getting a lot of attention as well, which bothers me. I am more inclined to think at least one scum will be leading the charge and trying to be a "good, hardworking" townie.

There is enough though right now to convince me that Korv is still a good bet, even after being given all of Day 2 to redeem himself (same chance was given to Amp as well, with disappointing results...). Once again, I think we were spot on in sensing abnormalities on day 1, so I'm ready to follow through.

Vote Korvalain.

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Remove vote

I'll definitely be back in 7 hours, so I don't want to lose that time for discussion (L-1 is too close and Korv is around. I want to hear what he has to say, esp about Amp)

Anthras, on 20 June 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And i just noticed something else:(which made me get the reasoning behind Korv vote)
in last days lynch Korbas was behind Korv by my vote until several people (Eloth,Atrahal,Liosan ,Karosis )
suddenly voted and lynched him.So it probably means that Korv was scum and other scum rallied support for one of two other guys who had the potential for vote and it means that at least 1 of four last votes on Korb was
scum.(probably the symp)
So for now:

Vote Korvalain

Korvalain, on 20 June 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Frankly I'm getting sick of defending myself. And if I defend myself then I'm accused of scrambling, and if I don't then I'm avoiding the issue. I don't feel like we are making any real progress against team scum because of this, and I'll be damned if I want to spend another day doing this.

Good fucking luck. Go fuck yourselves.

vote Korvalain

By my count this is a lynch. So there is that.

Anthras removed his vote when Korv voted for himself so that he wouldn't be at L-1 anymore. So he's currently at L-1.

[Anthras]

And i think i removed vote after his pathetic act.just cause i don't want a rage quit to hurt the town,After all the case against Korv is not that strong and the cases against other people have nothing on them.

Edit:cross post with Karosis

This post has been edited by Anthras: 20 June 2012 - 08:52 PM

[Ampelas]

Anomandaris, on 20 June 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Both Korv and Amp's name keeps cropping up. Amp for his weird play yesterday. What was the original lynch train on Korv for?

I do agree Eloth's behaviour seems a little frantic today and that Korv should be looked at.

Vote Korvalian

People sure do love to comment and echo back what's been said already without backing it up.

What was my weird play style? What could you possibly find so out-of-the-ordinary in 4/5 posts? An early-day on day 1 vote without sound reasoning? You're right, that's totally out of synch with day 1 normally.

[Karosis]

Eloth, on 20 June 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Both of these remove vote and vote are too late. Korv hammered himself. Probably town.

Ah, tis true, I did not count correctly! Welp, another day, another lynch, I guess.

[Eloth]

Karosis, on 20 June 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Eloth, on 20 June 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Hath-Daper, on 20 June 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

It is Day 2. 7 hours and 41 minutes remaining

11 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korvalain, Liosan, Omtose

6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Ampelas ( Liosan, Karosis )
4 Votes for Korvalain ( Omtose, Driss, Anomandaris, Fener )
1 Vote for Omtose ( Eloth )

-Liz

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Ok, I'm on lunch and am running out of time myself. But here is what I'm thinking: I agree that Amp is playing dodgy. I thought he was just waiting for Day 2 to get rolling, and seemed so at the start of this day. However, with the "Here" and gone posting, I agree that he is not really being all that helpful and comes across as avoidant. That being said, I am really curious about this connection made between Amp and Korv.

This was one of the things I hadn't caught on day 1 when I was trying to establish some connection between Korv and another player. Instead of Korv having someone who defended him against the lynch train, he instead seemed to have the perfect distancing move in voting for Amp and removing that vote. And now he can agree that Amp was annoying and changed behavors without much "connection" because after all, he put pressure on Amp and even voted for him.

Korv's distancing and Amp's lack of useful voting (including not voting for Korv) I think puts a pretty convincing connection in place. However, I'm unsure which one is more likely the killer if they both aren't killers. The thing that throws me is Korv's bluster and blundering posts. And Amp is a low poster who is getting a lot of attention as well, which bothers me. I am more inclined to think at least one scum will be leading the charge and trying to be a "good, hardworking" townie.

There is enough though right now to convince me that Korv is still a good bet, even after being given all of Day 2 to redeem himself (same chance was given to Amp as well, with disappointing results...). Once again, I think we were spot on in sensing abnormalities on day 1, so I'm ready to follow through.

Vote Korvalain.

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Remove vote

I'll definitely be back in 7 hours, so I don't want to lose that time for discussion (L-1 is too close and Korv is around. I want to hear what he has to say, esp about Amp)

Anthras, on 20 June 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And i just noticed something else:(which made me get the reasoning behind Korv vote)
in last days lynch Korbas was behind Korv by my vote until several people (Eloth,Atrahal,Liosan ,Karosis )
suddenly voted and lynched him.So it probably means that Korv was scum and other scum rallied support for one of two other guys who had the potential for vote and it means that at least 1 of four last votes on Korb was
scum.(probably the symp)
So for now:

Vote Korvalain

Korvalain, on 20 June 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Frankly I'm getting sick of defending myself. And if I defend myself then I'm accused of scrambling, and if I don't then I'm avoiding the issue. I don't feel like we are making any real progress against team scum because of this, and I'll be damned if I want to spend another day doing this.

Good fucking luck. Go fuck yourselves.

vote Korvalain

By my count this is a lynch. So there is that.

Anthras removed his vote when Korv voted for himself so that he wouldn't be at L-1 anymore. So he's currently at L-1.

Yeah.... check the time stamps..... When the votes hit six its a lynch.

[Eloth]

Ampelas, on 20 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Anomandaris, on 20 June 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Both Korv and Amp's name keeps cropping up. Amp for his weird play yesterday. What was the original lynch train on Korv for?

I do agree Eloth's behaviour seems a little frantic today and that Korv should be looked at.

Vote Korvalian

People sure do love to comment and echo back what's been said already without backing it up.

What was my weird play style? What could you possibly find so out-of-the-ordinary in 4/5 posts? An early-day on day 1 vote without sound reasoning? You're right, that's totally out of synch with day 1 normally.

Here

[Anthras]

ah,fuck it.Mathematics haunt me again.I am gonna have a nightmare tonight.

[Fener]

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Fener, on 20 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Right, I have Stuff To Do, and won't be back online for a good few hours. In which case, I need to vote.

Korv and Ampelas are looking like good bets for a lynch tonight. I'm going to

Vote Korvalain

and hope I've got enough time when I get back to catch up and possibly amend based on any arguments. Catch you all later!

Unacceptable on Day 2. This is exactly the kind of thing that breaks town and builds scum. Claiming to be looking through the posts and then just dropping a vote with a promise to discuss more is no good. Discuss now!

Sorry if Fener is town this is bad play, esp with all the spam he lays down. If he is scum, this is a style that works, but is still helluva annoying.

Well, I'm sorry if my other commitments don't coincide with your desires for posts, but there's shit-daddy-all I can do about that, sonny! You, however, could cut me some slack. I said I'd try to be back before day timed out, and, well, here I am. If Korv's self-vote means he gets mod-killed, then he takes himself out of the running for the lynch. We need clarification on this before we can go any further as far as I can see. If he doesn't get mod-killed (and really he deserves to), then by my count he's got lynched already, so any points I make now would be moot, as they'd mainly be contributing towards a Korv-lynch.

In sum: fuck you.

[Ampelas]

So is that a Korvalain lynch or not?

Anyways, what I get from the comments/cases made on me is that people have seen a low poster who has after all said just enough for them to make a case out of it. Some think me an easy target for a lynch, others are just following. Some of you might be scum, others just not thinking straight. There is no valid argument against me except for the one that I am a low contributor, which, on a day like today when so much good stuff has been posted, is one of the weaker arguments to pursue. But I guess I'm biased in that regard.

I still like Eloth's (and now Atrahal's) arguments for an Omtose vote. I would in fact go so far as to say that that has been my one truly contributing post so far, where I commented on exactly why I personally found Omtose suspicious.

[Ampelas]

Mostly what I like about today is how a couple of sides have been drawn, a few seeming alliances made. There's Liosan, Anomandaris, Karosis and perhaps D'riss. There's Eloth and Atrahal and possibly Anthras (sigh, I already see I'm going to have to read through again).

A productive lynch would be to lynch one of these, see how the trains develop, see how these semi-alliances hold up, see the CF, and then analyse accordingly. Now that would be fruitful.

[Anthras]

Ampelas, on 20 June 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Mostly what I like about today is how a couple of sides have been drawn, a few seeming alliances made. There's Liosan, Anomandaris, Karosis and perhaps D'riss. There's Eloth and Atrahal and possibly Anthras (sigh, I already see I'm going to have to read through again).

A productive lynch would be to lynch one of these, see how the trains develop, see how these semi-alliances hold up, see the CF, and then analyse accordingly. Now that would be fruitful.

You have listed 7 names above.
After the Korv lynch today and possibly the night kill 9 people will be alive next day and if 1 of the listed is not the night kill, You are suggesting we lynch one person out of 7 to get to see how alliances develop.Now considering you don't count yourself as scum(cliche)you are basically saying i am not scum and the scum are between these 7.


Edit:a wrong quote of eloth was in my post.
and wanted to add the fact that 2 you didn't mention were Fener and Omtose.

This post has been edited by Anthras: 20 June 2012 - 09:21 PM

[Anthras]

Anthras, on 20 June 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

and boy i was reading the thread again and i noticed something.
Eloth and Atrahal were both on the turned train then Day1 ends and in Day2 they both vote Omtose in quick succession.Take what you will of that.

Just wanted to add something to this:
Atrahal vote was initially on Korv,then Eloth comes and votes Omtose quickly changes it to Korb and Atrahal(second i think to vote Korv)changes his vote to Korbas .right after Eloth.