[D'riss]

Having gone back to take another look at day one, I'm inclined to agree with the suspicions against Korvalain. He is one of the highest posters, but there is surprisingly little content in his posts. Apart from joke votes, needling PS and that terrifying 'skullet' pic he has made one case and defended himself against another. He has made no effort to comment on any of the other cases apart from a non-committal agreement that people disagreeing with cases are not necessarily symping.

The response to the case against him looks substantial, but doesn't really address the main issue, which is that he has remained pretty much non-committal has been trying to blend in and not make any waves, acting in general agreeably. He merely responds to the examples, not to the underlying issue. He ends by casting suspicion on other players in order to look like he is contributing, but the examples he points out are overly simplistic. they don't constitute a case on anyone, they are simply surface observations that anyone could have made.

Korvalain, on 19 June 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

[Snip]

You know, originally it was because that was the order of the vote count in PS's most recent post. Actually, now I think I'm leaving it there. I was glancing over Korv's stuff and he's playing agreeable, light and fluffy. I'm trying to get in the scummy mindset to think how one would play on day 1. Best bet is to play it cool, not stand out. As I believe ansible has said (hopefully not crediting the wrong person), scum almost always play as middle posters if one leafs back through the previous games. Very cool observation.

So with Korv, he votes for Meanas, and then retracts and moves to Amp as a low poster. He teases Liz, points out D'riss' absence, and most recently agrees with the Big Tent following. All together, this is a pretty benign, even seemingly helpful (not really that helpful though) playstyle. I think we may have our first of the pair.

Because responses are expected, let's break it down:

Watch out kids I'm going to make a list!!!

1) "he votes for Meanas, and then retracts" - This is what we call the 'gag' vote. Meanas says that I don't exist, and I come back with a quote from Descartes as to why I must exist, and make a counteraccusation based on that argument. IT'S ALL RIGHT THOUGH. I wasn't REALLY going to vote Meanas based on a philosophical argument. I REMOVED THE VOTE. Particularly when I saw other people voting on him for no other reason than he already had a few.

2) "moves to Amp as a low poster" - This is a textbook response to someone posting.... WAIT FOR IT... 3 WORDS. Amp came back on to play, and the vote was removed.

3) "He teases Liz" - Guilty as charged! Hi Lizzy!

4) "agrees with the Big Tent following" - Wow, I agreed with the part in Big Tent about how people that agree with or defend OTHER PLAYERS should not be considered guilty, and I'm automatically guilty. Priceless.

Soooo in summary I think I'm guilty of teasing Liz and being a list maker. As far as crappy day one cases go, I guess you could go ahead and lynch me. I'm even getting ready to go to bed soon, so you have the perfect opportunity.

What I've been doing though is watching the interactions and making my opinions, so far (oh yeah baby another list! I'm playing with fire!!!):

1) Fener changes his vote whenever the winds change to follow someone (anyone) else.

2) Korbas is just happy to throw his vote down on anyone with a majority.

3) Karosis will continue arguing, even though he said he isn't going to, because he wants to prove something to us.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. I'll vote when I wake up tomorrow. Right now I'm leaning towards Korbas and Fener.

The 'case' he does make is little more than pressuring a low-poster to contribute. That player returns and says NOTHING of value, and suddenly this satisfies Korvalain. Again, he attempts to distract the thread with the comment on Fener, another surface observation that had already been made.

Korvalain, on 18 June 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 18 June 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Korvalain, on 18 June 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Yeah, Meanas is pretty random.

remove Vote

Ampelas, on 18 June 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Here.

Ampelas, on 18 June 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Here again.

Scum or lazy townie, you've got to do better than that. ^^

vote Ampelas

Point me towards your contribution if you may be so kind. I keep looking, but I can't seem to find it.

IT SPEAKS MORE THAN 3 WORDS! I'm satisfied, now we're tied.

remove Vote

I agree Fener is a bit overzealous in his following.

There has been plenty of other action going on, but Korvalain is focussed on himself and his own case. This suggests to me that he does not want to get involved in the main discussions, for fear of slipping and giving something away. dealing only with the case he has made and the case against him gives him better control over the situation.

Vote Korvalain.

[Omtose]

Fener, on 18 June 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Korvalain, on 18 June 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Yeah, Meanas is pretty random.

remove Vote

Ampelas, on 18 June 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Here.

Ampelas, on 18 June 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Here again.

Scum or lazy townie, you've got to do better than that. ^^

vote Ampelas

While low-posting is not necessarily scummy, it's also not good town play. But pressures of RL do intrude, so are we not going to cut people any slack?
No? OK then.


Vote Ampelas

Here's the original vote.

Care to explain oh pigly one?

[D'riss]

Good spotting, Ano. But according to my records you yourself did not remove your vote from Omtose before voting for Korbas...

I'm heading to bed and won't be back before the end of day. At this stage it's not clear where the lynch is going to end up, but we have had a great day one, so I would urge everyone to vote, it will get us sone good info.

Night all.

[Fener]

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Fener, on 18 June 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

While low-posting is not necessarily scummy, it's also not good town play. But pressures of RL do intrude, so are we not going to cut people any slack?
No? OK then.


Vote Ampelas

Here's the original vote.

Care to explain oh pigly one?

It's fairly simple, so hopefully you'll be able to understand I could't remember who I'd voted for, because it wasn't anything very case-driven or serious. And so, as a courtesy, I removed my vote and voted again. Think of it as a confirmation vote -- nothing to get het up about at all.

[Omtose]

Fair enough. You'll notice I didn't change my vote to you.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 8 hours and 26 minutes remaining

13 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korbas, Korvalain, Liosan, Meanas, Omtose

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

3 Votes for Korvalain ( Atrahal, Omtose, Driss )
3 Votes for Meanas ( Eloth, Karosis, Korbas )
3 Votes for Ampelas ( Meanas, Fener, Liosan )
1 Vote for Omtose ( Anomandaris )
1 Vote for Anomandaris ( Ampelas )

Players not voted: Anthras, Korvalain

-Liz

[Anomandaris]

D, on 19 June 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Good spotting, Ano. But according to my records you yourself did not remove your vote from Omtose before voting for Korbas...

I'm heading to bed and won't be back before the end of day. At this stage it's not clear where the lynch is going to end up, but we have had a great day one, so I would urge everyone to vote, it will get us sone good info.

Night all.

ah, cheers D'riss,

Remove Vote

Vote Korbas

[Omtose]

"Hath-Daper"?

Did someone seriously change PS's name? I thought it takes a whole month before you can change back...

[Omtose]

Double post, because it will give me the highest post count.

HAH!

[Korvalain]

OK, I'm up. If they want to change PS's name, an admin can change it after the game.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 6 hours and 19 minutes remaining

13 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korbas, Korvalain, Liosan, Meanas, Omtose

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

3 Votes for Korvalain ( Atrahal, Omtose, Driss )
3 Votes for Meanas ( Eloth, Karosis, Korbas )
3 Votes for Ampelas ( Meanas, Fener, Liosan )
1 Vote for Anomandaris ( Ampelas )
1 Vote for Korbas ( Anomandaris )

Players not voted: Anthras, Korvalain

-Liz

[Korvalain]

D, on 19 June 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Having gone back to take another look at day one, I'm inclined to agree with the suspicions against Korvalain. He is one of the highest posters, but there is surprisingly little content in his posts. Apart from joke votes, needling PS and that terrifying 'skullet' pic he has made one case and defended himself against another. He has made no effort to comment on any of the other cases apart from a non-committal agreement that people disagreeing with cases are not necessarily symping.

The response to the case against him looks substantial, but doesn't really address the main issue, which is that he has remained pretty much non-committal has been trying to blend in and not make any waves, acting in general agreeably. He merely responds to the examples, not to the underlying issue. He ends by casting suspicion on other players in order to look like he is contributing, but the examples he points out are overly simplistic. they don't constitute a case on anyone, they are simply surface observations that anyone could have made.

<snip>

There has been plenty of other action going on, but Korvalain is focussed on himself and his own case. This suggests to me that he does not want to get involved in the main discussions, for fear of slipping and giving something away. dealing only with the case he has made and the case against him gives him better control over the situation.

Vote Korvalain.

I love it when people make the day one shitty cases sound like something substantial.

1) "He is one of the highest posters, but there is surprisingly little content in his posts." It'sDay 1, no one has been saying much yet.

2) "There has been plenty of other action going on, but Korvalain is focussed on himself and his own case. " And if I DIDN'T respond, I would have gotten all of the 'Why didn't you respond to the case against you?" questions. Can't win. I assure you I'm town, but most of the time we always get town the first day anyways.

Anyways, I didn't do much more last night because I was tired. Let me finish catching up.

[Korvalain]

Anomandaris, on 19 June 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

Scummiest player i've found so far today is Korbas.

Korbas, on 18 June 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

No response yet from Meanas to Karo's vote. Let's put a bit O' the ole pressure on him, lads!

Vote Meanas

So this vote is just to apply pressure on Meanas which is understandable. I agree with applying pressure but when that person comes on and actually gives content then you look at other options unless you still think that player scummy and provide a reason for that.

Korbas, on 18 June 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Anthras, on 18 June 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

You were late so no entrance,Period.
and dude who says put pressure on the guy. I ask of you,Why shouldn't i vote you?see there is no answer worth the time it takes typing.At least until later.we have to just trust our luck.

Edit:Grammar

There's no good reason as far as you know that you shouldn't vote me. Im T-totally town though, its the truth.

This. Why state the need to tell everyone your town? Who are you trying to convince and why? I think Korbas is scum trying to fit in or convince himself he is town.

Korbas, on 18 June 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

What kind of thing? It's just day 1 shenanigans.

The trains headed to Meanas town so far, I hopped aboard.

We have hours and hours of time to play and yet you "hop" onto the player with the most votes, who you just so happened to apply pressure to earlier on. Any town lynch will do will it as long as you stay alive another day? So scummy!!!

Korbas, on 18 June 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

I jumped on the train because I've played games recently where a day one lynch opp is missed and I don't want that to happen. Ill jump where I wanna jump.

I agree we need to lynch and although it is day one you lynch who you find to be the most scummiest. I think that is you. You have a flippant attitude towards lynches, and that anybody but me will do attitude is what I find scummy.

Vote Korbas

This was the problem that I was having with Korbas last night. I can agree with this, someone that is just willing to put their vote wherever is not working for the benefit of town.

vote Korbas

[Meanas]

Karosis, on 19 June 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Meanas, on 19 June 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Yes yes, becuase ALL symps are so atrociously blatant and useless. They actively WANT to SYMP their masters for fun and profit. *sigh* Even worse if you're implying partnership because honestly I'd probably modkill myself if my partner did that stupid a move on day one.

This comes back down to Big Tent. Why is it that whenever anyone functions as the voice of reason and provides a differing viewpoint to the "case"/train of choice, they are automatically that person's symp/partner/whatever? Why can't ANYONE actually just object to stupid cases/votes? Seriously, people, let's not ruin the last game's decent play with this crap.

Okay, so you didn't blatantly say that I am a bad player, but you're implying that I am stupid for believing that D'riss might be symping you, and that it's stupid to not be able to cases, blah blah blah... I just think the Big Tent Mafia thing is a bunch of arrogant, elitist bullshit. I never said you couldn't play how you wanted to play, but talking about how you think others should play the game, and how it's stupid if other players do certain things certain ways doesn't seem to get anyone anywhere. Excuse me for having an opinion and calling you out on things I find annoying or whatever. When it comes down to it, you're going to play how you play, and that's fine. I certainly won't be the one to tell you that what you're doing is stupid, I am a nicer person than that.

Now, I am done with this conversation. I am sure you'll NEED to respond, but don't expect me to continue arguing. I have gotten my point across, it's all that I really wanted to do.

No, I was outright stating that some of your play was - imo - stupid. If you think that is the same thing as calling YOU stupid, then you really have a problem with taking things to heart, mate. EVERY player makes mistakes and does STUPID things. And yet I'd contend that none of our players are stupid. There's a distinction.

My point was that if you're going to bitch and moan about people critiquing your choices, perhaps you're in the wrong game. Because much as you might like to think of BTM as a bunch of "elitist bullshit", for someone playing the n00b card you should probably realize pretty quick that it was started by Gust Hubb - a new player, relatively speaking. Because of the self-same points raised in that thread as get raised every so often in games when people are getting lynched because of bad play. One of the things I think nearly everyone agreed was bullshit was instantly labelling any nay-sayer on a case as a symp, rather than acknowledging that third parties might actually have a vested interest in not letting bad reasoning (from their point of view) prevail. Do you honestly disagree with that?

And that follows onto your own precious reaction about your play being called on. You say that nothing good comes of that? Really? So what do you think cases are about people who aren't posting content, people who are coasting, people who are leading the thread, people who aren't talking like town are? It's exactly the same thing. Saying "I think labelling people who defend others as symps is stupid" is the same thing as saying "I think you're a symp because you defended this guy's case". I'm saying that you seem to be trying to enshrine YOUR right to play how you want to while bitching about other people doing exactly what you're doing. Hypocrisy.

I mean dude. Go and look at that underlined part. LOOK AT IT. Then tell me how the fuck that is different from D'riss or I expressing our displeasure at your play? Let it sink in for a bit.

And you can be "done with this conversation" all you want. You're playing mafia, though, and presumably will continue to do so in the future. So in reality, you'll NEVER be done with the subject matter. Because it's what mafia IS. And it's nice of you to sign off with yet more narcissistic hypocrisy, almost as if you're TRYING to prove MY point for me. Thanks.








****

Anyway, that aside, there is one player that has stuck out to me lately, like a gaping void. Eloth.

Love-it-and-leave-it voting, anyone? I mean, seriously, two posts? Bewteen his last post (#16!!) and now, nothing. In that time I'm pretty sure I've been to bed, got up, gone to work, come home, had dinner, and am preparing for bed again. Which, by my admittedly iffy maths skills, means it must almost have been 24 hours between posts. In the interests of "pressuring" Eloth to play a bit (though I'm inclined to point out the irony of me voting for an absentee player when people have already pointed out the fruitlessness of such actions when directed at me earlier), I'm going to:

Remove vote.
Vote Eloth


Because that lack of participation is ridiculous.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 6 hours and 3 minutes remaining

13 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korbas, Korvalain, Liosan, Meanas, Omtose

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Ampelas ( Fener, Liosan )
3 Votes for Meanas ( Eloth, Karosis, Korbas )
1 Vote for Anomandaris ( Ampelas )
3 Votes for Korvalain ( Atrahal, Omtose, Driss )
1 Vote for Eloth ( Meanas )
2 Votes for Korbas ( Anomandaris, Korvalain )

Players not voted: Anthras

-Liz

[Omtose]

I don't get a scum vibe from Korbas. Scum can be abrasive, but it tends to be a non-committal abrasive. Korbas actually threw his vote around. I could be wrong of course, but I think I'd need a little more to switch my vote at this juncture.

I would, however, be willing to vote Eloth. Karosis AKA Mac played a pretty low posting first couple of days in our last M&P, and that left me a little disinclined to ignore the lower posters.

[Omtose]

BTW, that isn't a meta argument with any direct bearing on this game, it's just a personal explanation of the basis for why I would consider voting low-posters.

[Liosan]

Meanas, on 19 June 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

No, I was outright stating that some of your play was - imo - stupid. If you think that is the same thing as calling YOU stupid, then you really have a problem with taking things to heart, mate. EVERY player makes mistakes and does STUPID things. And yet I'd contend that none of our players are stupid. There's a distinction.

My point was that if you're going to bitch and moan about people critiquing your choices, perhaps you're in the wrong game. Because much as you might like to think of BTM as a bunch of "elitist bullshit", for someone playing the n00b card you should probably realize pretty quick that it was started by Gust Hubb - a new player, relatively speaking. Because of the self-same points raised in that thread as get raised every so often in games when people are getting lynched because of bad play. One of the things I think nearly everyone agreed was bullshit was instantly labelling any nay-sayer on a case as a symp, rather than acknowledging that third parties might actually have a vested interest in not letting bad reasoning (from their point of view) prevail. Do you honestly disagree with that?

And that follows onto your own precious reaction about your play being called on. You say that nothing good comes of that? Really? So what do you think cases are about people who aren't posting content, people who are coasting, people who are leading the thread, people who aren't talking like town are? It's exactly the same thing. Saying "I think labelling people who defend others as symps is stupid" is the same thing as saying "I think you're a symp because you defended this guy's case". I'm saying that you seem to be trying to enshrine YOUR right to play how you want to while bitching about other people doing exactly what you're doing. Hypocrisy.

I mean dude. Go and look at that underlined part. LOOK AT IT. Then tell me how the fuck that is different from D'riss or I expressing our displeasure at your play? Let it sink in for a bit.

And you can be "done with this conversation" all you want. You're playing mafia, though, and presumably will continue to do so in the future. So in reality, you'll NEVER be done with the subject matter. Because it's what mafia IS. And it's nice of you to sign off with yet more narcissistic hypocrisy, almost as if you're TRYING to prove MY point for me. Thanks.








****

Anyway, that aside, there is one player that has stuck out to me lately, like a gaping void. Eloth.

Love-it-and-leave-it voting, anyone? I mean, seriously, two posts? Bewteen his last post (#16!!) and now, nothing. In that time I'm pretty sure I've been to bed, got up, gone to work, come home, had dinner, and am preparing for bed again. Which, by my admittedly iffy maths skills, means it must almost have been 24 hours between posts. In the interests of "pressuring" Eloth to play a bit (though I'm inclined to point out the irony of me voting for an absentee player when people have already pointed out the fruitlessness of such actions when directed at me earlier), I'm going to:

Remove vote.
Vote Eloth


Because that lack of participation is ridiculous.

You know i really dont want to comment on that whole pissing match between you two for the simple fact it has no place within an actual game, so can I just ask nicely that you two leave that conversation until after the game is over. Frankly if your not basing a case on something and simply pointing out other peoples actions as stupid it is just asking for trouble and doesnt help us at all in the game. As for the vote - the day is running on, and if korvalain hadnt of voted for korbas I would say the same thing to anomandaris, we need to start thinking about a lynch, and trying for eloth at this point when there have been some actual cases just doesnt make sense to me.

[Meanas]

Liosan, on 19 June 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

You know i really dont want to comment on that whole pissing match between you two for the simple fact it has no place within an actual game, so can I just ask nicely that you two leave that conversation until after the game is over. Frankly if your not basing a case on something and simply pointing out other peoples actions as stupid it is just asking for trouble and doesnt help us at all in the game. As for the vote - the day is running on, and if korvalain hadnt of voted for korbas I would say the same thing to anomandaris, we need to start thinking about a lynch, and trying for eloth at this point when there have been some actual cases just doesnt make sense to me.

Again; discussion of someone's play is the very basis of mafia. If I'd said "randomly voting for someone on day one doesn't actually get us much info except that you started a random train and these guys were suspicious jumping on it, rather than debating and finding a decent case" there wouldn't be any of this debate. The meta-debate around it might be a sideshow but it's still relevant to the game if every time someone calls bad play they're going to get "whine whine let me play how I want!".
You don't have to have a case to call something. That's the whole "can't defend any case because you'll be a symp" crap that started this discussion in the first place, ffs. You can acknowledge the merits of another case while still voting for what is the stronger case in your opinion, why not the opposite?

In the same vein, neither of those cases hold much water for me. They're not atrocious (or, y'know, baseless, unlike some other trains...) for day one, but Eloth still stands out to me as such a low-poster as to be a non-entity (ooh, there I go again, Fener! ). But I will grant that there are only six hours left, which I hadn't realized! O.o

At this point the most likely lynches are Korv or I, though. My train is the aforementioned baseless one, and seeing as I have inside knowledge of the CF and suchlike (teehee) I should probably vote Korv in the hopes of getting a lynch. But that case is particularly unsolid, so while it's not much better, I guess I'll join the Korbas train.

Remove Vote.
Vote Korbas.

Hmpf. Stupid work. Takes up all the damn day. O.o

[Meanas]

And with that, I bid you all good night.