[Atrahal]

I really do think we were onto some things on day 1. I would point out that we did pick up on genuine aberrant game play, unfortunately the result of RT being a very nervous finder.

So thought experiment. What is the scum MO for day 1?

This is what I'm trying to work through at the moment. If you are paired scum, you have a partner who has your back and you know there is at least one other person, a faithful symp, who knows who you and your partner are and will either follow your lead or protect you by diverting attention. With this in mind, what level of confidence would we expect in scum at the start of the game, when everything is tentative and several RIs are prone to misbehaving for various reasons (such as getting a reaction like Khells or just having fun with things like dragonsecks)?

This is where the middle-posting theory comes in, which is just that, a theory. Scum don't want to stand out too much, and mafia players are prone to lynch someone who is too crazy out of sheer annoyance. So I wouldn't expect scum to stand out too much. And low posters are a wild card, but Day 2 often shows who remains a low poster and who was waiting for material to analyze (e.g. Amp).

So currently, my middling pool of suspects includes Eloth, D'riss, and Omtose.

Eloth is suspect in my books for his vote for Omtose and prompt retraction of said vote to go with the lynch train. That and his stated willingness to switch votes to get a lynch. Helpful, and also potentially indicative of knowing both suspects are RI, and either dead would do just fine for scum.

D'riss is playing a fine game, one which I feel resonance with. Challenging people's accusations, trying to think outside the box, and not accepting things at face value. The only problem here is that this is exactly how I would play as scum...

Omtose, one of my primary issues with him is his unquestioning acceptance of the case on Korv (doesn't care? knew he was inno anyways). To quote "That's as good as it gets on Day 1. Why not?" This and his defense of Korb (easy to defend someone when you know they are inno) send up red flags. He's not playing badly, it's that he is playing exactly how we'd expect a day 1 townie to play (unsure, helpful, and easily swayed by poor cases because it doesn't matter on day one anyways )

Vote Omtose

[Atrahal]

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

For those of you who are saying the omtose case has merit or is good or whatever, would you please elaborate as to why?


Elaborating on your assertion would be good for two reasons.

1) It will help you to sound out your thinking and prove that you aren't being a sheeple.

2) You will immediately become aware of the following :



2 reasons why the Omtose case makes no sense.

1) It is predicated on the idea that I was being smooth and non-confrontational. If you actually look at my play, especially in relation to the play of others, you will realzie this is a completely made up falsehood.

2) It also is based on me steering the lynch away from Korbas. OMG! I didn't vote for the town finder! LYNCH ME NOU! In reality, I did what any normal mafia player does - I looked at two weak day 1 cases and decided one had more merit than the other. It aint rocket science.


That's all I'm going to say about the subject. I'm giong to do a re-read and see if anyone else jumps out at me. I'm at work though, so don't expect it immediately.

But you see Omtose, this is exactly your sticky situation.

From my point of view, people like Fener (completely off on his own having fun stirring up trouble), Liosan (very confrontational not really playing with the rest of the team), and Anthras (practically begging for a lynch, to the point of it being embarrassing) drop lower in my suspect pool because they are doing things that are considered very scummy, and risking their hides as a result. In my experience, only the really clever roled players or the uninhibited RIs tend to act like this.

You are playing smooth compared to these, correct? Am I wrong in saying you are acting helpful, demonstrating open doubt in lynch trains even so far as to say that someone is probably inno, but you'll vote to push through the lynch anyways?

Look at it another way: Liosan, Fener, and Amp all stayed off the lynch train till the bitter end, holding onto their pet theories. This doesn't exclude them from being scum, but I'll bet you dollars to pounds that scum is more likely on the trains than on the single cases (hence my suspicion of Eloth).

Anyways, this continues to be stream of consciousness, dangerous but I think well worth the effort. And please, argue back. Harrumps like Korv do no one any good

[D'riss]

Omtose, I think the main issue against you is your vote on Korvalain. You basically said 'why not?', without going back and doing your own reading elaborating further or commenting in any other way, and then stuck rather strictly to your vote. The other thing I found somewhat suspicious was your mention of looking at people who hadn't voted yet, despite the fact that the majority of votes in the game had been joke votes up to that point. However, the way you joined in the joke voting and advocated pressuring people who were online rather than those who had disappeared, as well as your response to the case on Korbas has me thinking you're probably town.

I'm actually leaning much more towards your case on Eloth. His case on Omtose, after saying specifically that he didn't think there were enough votes for a Korbas lynch, looks a little like scrambling. He discounts the case on Korvalain in a simple sentence based on a vague mention of the way he responded to the case against him, which I personally thought was rather weak (the response, not the case). He also based his case on Omtose on 'not making waves', but Korvalain is a much better candidate for that charge. The quotes that he used were cherry-picked out of context, and he only actually used two quotes out of all the posts Omtose had made, which suggests a case made to distract, rather than a serious case, especially given the timing of the case.

In addition, the way Korvalain has been acting since the end of day sounds to me like someone very relieved to still be alive. He is suddenly acting very helpful, making cases and throwing suspicions around. The case on Fener in particular looks pretty weak, and there is very little analysis, minus some surface comments stuck in with big quotes.

Vote Korvalain.

[D'riss]

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

I really do think we were onto some things on day 1. I would point out that we did pick up on genuine aberrant game play, unfortunately the result of RT being a very nervous finder.

So thought experiment. What is the scum MO for day 1?

This is what I'm trying to work through at the moment. If you are paired scum, you have a partner who has your back and you know there is at least one other person, a faithful symp, who knows who you and your partner are and will either follow your lead or protect you by diverting attention. With this in mind, what level of confidence would we expect in scum at the start of the game, when everything is tentative and several RIs are prone to misbehaving for various reasons (such as getting a reaction like Khells or just having fun with things like dragonsecks)?

This is where the middle-posting theory comes in, which is just that, a theory. Scum don't want to stand out too much, and mafia players are prone to lynch someone who is too crazy out of sheer annoyance. So I wouldn't expect scum to stand out too much. And low posters are a wild card, but Day 2 often shows who remains a low poster and who was waiting for material to analyze (e.g. Amp).

So currently, my middling pool of suspects includes Eloth, D'riss, and Omtose.

Eloth is suspect in my books for his vote for Omtose and prompt retraction of said vote to go with the lynch train. That and his stated willingness to switch votes to get a lynch. Helpful, and also potentially indicative of knowing both suspects are RI, and either dead would do just fine for scum.

D'riss is playing a fine game, one which I feel resonance with. Challenging people's accusations, trying to think outside the box, and not accepting things at face value. The only problem here is that this is exactly how I would play as scum...

Omtose, one of my primary issues with him is his unquestioning acceptance of the case on Korv (doesn't care? knew he was inno anyways). To quote "That's as good as it gets on Day 1. Why not?" This and his defense of Korb (easy to defend someone when you know they are inno) send up red flags. He's not playing badly, it's that he is playing exactly how we'd expect a day 1 townie to play (unsure, helpful, and easily swayed by poor cases because it doesn't matter on day one anyways )

Vote Omtose

Firstly, thank you But why would you not also play like this when town? I know I am expendable, so I'm doing what I can to help town by questioning and debating. This has already netted me some symping suspicions, but I hope it is also somewhat helpful to town.

Second, I think Eloth's case on Omtose is a lot more suspect than you seem to think. The timing of the case in particular is very telling, and the fact that he stated there were not enough votes on Korbas to make it viable, but felt the need to make a completely new case is super-suspicious.

Your comment on Omtose is interesting and a good point, I too thought it was weird that Omtose was so set on the Korvalain lynch after basically saying "it's the best we are going to get". But if he was easily swayed by cases I would have expected him to jump on the Korbas lynch, Korbas was certainly acting the most scummy on day one. I think also that he hasn't really shown much in the way of uncertainty during the course of the game. I think also the way he participated in the early shenanigans and his needling of Korbas are not really the actions of a scum playing carefully.

[Omtose]

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

For those of you who are saying the omtose case has merit or is good or whatever, would you please elaborate as to why?


Elaborating on your assertion would be good for two reasons.

1) It will help you to sound out your thinking and prove that you aren't being a sheeple.

2) You will immediately become aware of the following :



2 reasons why the Omtose case makes no sense.

1) It is predicated on the idea that I was being smooth and non-confrontational. If you actually look at my play, especially in relation to the play of others, you will realzie this is a completely made up falsehood.

2) It also is based on me steering the lynch away from Korbas. OMG! I didn't vote for the town finder! LYNCH ME NOU! In reality, I did what any normal mafia player does - I looked at two weak day 1 cases and decided one had more merit than the other. It aint rocket science.


That's all I'm going to say about the subject. I'm giong to do a re-read and see if anyone else jumps out at me. I'm at work though, so don't expect it immediately.

But you see Omtose, this is exactly your sticky situation.

From my point of view, people like Fener (completely off on his own having fun stirring up trouble), Liosan (very confrontational not really playing with the rest of the team), and Anthras (practically begging for a lynch, to the point of it being embarrassing) drop lower in my suspect pool because they are doing things that are considered very scummy, and risking their hides as a result. In my experience, only the really clever roled players or the uninhibited RIs tend to act like this.

You are playing smooth compared to these, correct? Am I wrong in saying you are acting helpful, demonstrating open doubt in lynch trains even so far as to say that someone is probably inno, but you'll vote to push through the lynch anyways?

Look at it another way: Liosan, Fener, and Amp all stayed off the lynch train till the bitter end, holding onto their pet theories. This doesn't exclude them from being scum, but I'll bet you dollars to pounds that scum is more likely on the trains than on the single cases (hence my suspicion of Eloth).

Anyways, this continues to be stream of consciousness, dangerous but I think well worth the effort. And please, argue back. Harrumps like Korv do no one any good

Since you ask nicely, I'll reply. I'm on a short break right now, so I haven't had time to read back yet and I'll keep this brief.



I realize I have a bias because I'm the target in this case, but I feel that making a case based on a belief of how scum may or may not play this game is a great way to clutter up a thread with WIFOM. When we get away from evidence created by action or inaction and how that ties to motive, we can make just about any case we want about "how scum might play". It wouldn't be a stretch to see the argument "Someone who brings up speculation on how scum would play is probably scum!"



Helpful, demonstrating doubt at someone's guilt but willing to vote to get a lynch? Yes, I am guilty of those things, but basing a decision of town or scum on that is going to get a lot of townies lynched from game to game.


One thing I should do is explain why I voted for Korv and stayed with that vote, since I'll admit I wasn't really as clear on that. I didnt actually like the initial case by Atrahal, but I wanted to apply pressure to Korv. Now, I can't very well apply pressure by adding a vote while poo-pooing the case at the same time, so I left it vague. I mean, if you go out and announce that it's a shaky case right away, why would anyone feel obligated to defend themselves against it? Keeping my vote there allowed me to see Korv's reaction, and to observe how the votes fell afterwards.


I didn't switch to Korbas, because both were so close in votes as things were getting more tense. I knew that a vote switch at that time from one of the two to the other could potentially act as the swing vote which determined who would get lynched, which in fact happened once Atrahal switched. I was using my vote and keeping an eye on the trains as a way of gleaning information - hence my case on Eloth/Korv now, since the way things went raised red flags for me.


edit: deleted a negative which created the opposite meaning than I intended.

This post has been edited by Omtose: 20 June 2012 - 01:31 AM

[Atrahal]

Ok. Clarifies some things. My concern though Om is where you think this "evidence" will come from? We always talk about this proves this and that, but in the end, we are more wrong than right and the "evidence" is rarely just that (more often it is a misinterpretation that accidentally gives us the scum's neck).

What I'm am trying to do is find the most likely scum by trying to keep a step ahead of them. Anything that is said automatically changes the way everyone plays. If saying the word piano becomes scummy, people will either avoid the word or play it up for shock effect. However, if in this hypothetical situation, the word piano strongly correlated with true scumminess, anyone saying it before it being called out would be more suspicious than those who alter their behavior after the fact (if you follow that convoluted explanation...)

But again, why Korv? Because of the Eloth/Korv connection? I still haven't let go of my suspicions of Korv, but the guy lost it under pressure (not unheard of for scum, but still it gives me pause).

I guess I need more on the guy (who is his partner, e.g. someone who has distanced themselves from Korv to a subtle and not extreme degree?, were there scum on his train, and if so, were they just trying to hide? If not, were people who dropped off Korv's train just playing along for distancing effect?).

I'll take another look, and for now:

Remove Vote

as respect for your response.

[Atrahal]

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

To recap, Karosis voted and put Korv at 5 votes, while Korbas was at 3.

Eloth votes for me, and then "because he wants a lynch" switches to Korbas making it 5 to 4.

Atrahal is the swing vote, and he references me as perhaps protecting Korbas. Korbas himself then comes on and does the sensible thing of voting Korv, making it 5 to 5 since Atrahal was voting for Korv initially.

Then Liosan votes Korbas, putting Korbas ahead.

Karosis hammers.


Looking at this, Eloth does two things -

He is the one who starts the swing from Korv to Korbas. In doing so, he attacks me (an early Korv voter) and essentially sets me up as his Day 2 lynch choice, which he has followed up on with his vote today. Also notice, that Eloth disappears after the vote swings and doesn't comment again until the next day begins. He never really offered an opinion on Korv, except to say "he'd be willing to switch for a lynch" which tells us nothing.

Atrahal was the real swing vote by removing from Korv to vote for Korbas, so that bears keeping in mind as well.

k, one more thing before bed. Just wanted to try to answer my own questions. Strictly by vote movement, I would say Karosis, myself, and Eloth are the suspect ones.

Karosis drives the vote any way you slice it, creating enough of a gap between Korbas and Korv initially to push the Korv train into L-2. However, Karosis also just hammers Korb in the end. Makes me think neither of them would be a partner to Karo should he be scum.

Eloth's vote switch is suspicious, I agree. Also, giving the Korb train another push to try and out run the Korv train is very suspect.

And finally, I do reverse the momentum with my move from Korv to Korb, esp. with additional quotes to nail down my reasoning.

So far just repeating what you've said, but here is where the analysis comes in. Let's say that one of our suspects is scum (symp or killer) and Korv is one of the killers.

Karo's behavior makes no sense in that context, seeing that he nearly drives Korv into the grave.

Eloth could be suspicious in redirection, and the random vote on Omtose could be a ploy to create a little more distance. Definitely keeping Eloth on the table.

Likewise, I switch votes after a long absence, which could be construed at initially voting Korv as distancing followed by realization I put him in hot water and trying to scramble (however, this also is a stretch considering that I made a case on Korv, which would be stupid for scum).


So Eloth is very suspect based on voting patterns. I would ask Eloth why Korb and not Korv considering both cases had their weak points. Moreover, you acknowledged this Eloth when you said you would switch your vote as needed between the two.

[Korvalain]

Omtose, on 20 June 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

For those of you who are saying the omtose case has merit or is good or whatever, would you please elaborate as to why?


Elaborating on your assertion would be good for two reasons.

1) It will help you to sound out your thinking and prove that you aren't being a sheeple.

2) You will immediately become aware of the following :



2 reasons why the Omtose case makes no sense.

1) It is predicated on the idea that I was being smooth and non-confrontational. If you actually look at my play, especially in relation to the play of others, you will realzie this is a completely made up falsehood.

2) It also is based on me steering the lynch away from Korbas. OMG! I didn't vote for the town finder! LYNCH ME NOU! In reality, I did what any normal mafia player does - I looked at two weak day 1 cases and decided one had more merit than the other. It aint rocket science.


That's all I'm going to say about the subject. I'm giong to do a re-read and see if anyone else jumps out at me. I'm at work though, so don't expect it immediately.

But you see Omtose, this is exactly your sticky situation.

From my point of view, people like Fener (completely off on his own having fun stirring up trouble), Liosan (very confrontational not really playing with the rest of the team), and Anthras (practically begging for a lynch, to the point of it being embarrassing) drop lower in my suspect pool because they are doing things that are considered very scummy, and risking their hides as a result. In my experience, only the really clever roled players or the uninhibited RIs tend to act like this.

You are playing smooth compared to these, correct? Am I wrong in saying you are acting helpful, demonstrating open doubt in lynch trains even so far as to say that someone is probably inno, but you'll vote to push through the lynch anyways?

Look at it another way: Liosan, Fener, and Amp all stayed off the lynch train till the bitter end, holding onto their pet theories. This doesn't exclude them from being scum, but I'll bet you dollars to pounds that scum is more likely on the trains than on the single cases (hence my suspicion of Eloth).

Anyways, this continues to be stream of consciousness, dangerous but I think well worth the effort. And please, argue back. Harrumps like Korv do no one any good

Since you ask nicely, I'll reply. I'm on a short break right now, so I haven't had time to read back yet and I'll keep this brief.



I realize I have a bias because I'm the target in this case, but I feel that making a case based on a belief of how scum may or may not play this game is a great way to clutter up a thread with WIFOM. When we get away from evidence created by action or inaction and how that ties to motive, we can make just about any case we want about "how scum might play". It wouldn't be a stretch to see the argument "Someone who brings up speculation on how scum would play is probably scum!"



Helpful, demonstrating doubt at someone's guilt but willing to vote to get a lynch? Yes, I am guilty of those things, but basing a decision of town or scum on that is going to get a lot of townies lynched from game to game.


One thing I should do is explain why I voted for Korv and stayed with that vote, since I'll admit I wasn't really as clear on that. I didnt actually like the initial case by Atrahal, but I wanted to apply pressure to Korv. Now, I can't very well apply pressure by adding a vote while poo-pooing the case at the same time, so I left it vague. I mean, if you go out and announce that it's a shaky case right away, why would anyone feel obligated to defend themselves against it? Keeping my vote there allowed me to see Korv's reaction, and to observe how the votes fell afterwards.


I didn't switch to Korbas, because both were so close in votes as things were getting more tense. I knew that a vote switch at that time from one of the two to the other could potentially act as the swing vote which determined who would get lynched, which in fact happened once Atrahal switched. I was using my vote and keeping an eye on the trains as a way of gleaning information - hence my case on Eloth/Korv now, since the way things went raised red flags for me.


edit: deleted a negative which created the opposite meaning than I intended.

The problem with this line of reasoning is: What are you going to do when you lynch me and I cf as town? Unless of course, you're on the scum team and this works in your favor. It would have been better for town if you had lynched me Day 1 and moved forward. If this wasn't a mini game, we could afford a couple days worth of wrong lynches and still recover, but its not and we can't, so instead you're going to pursue the same day 1 crap, lynch another town and the killers take out YET ANOTHER TOWNIE. Good plan. Anyways, I'm going to bed.

[Atrahal]

Korvalain, on 20 June 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Omtose, on 20 June 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

For those of you who are saying the omtose case has merit or is good or whatever, would you please elaborate as to why?


Elaborating on your assertion would be good for two reasons.

1) It will help you to sound out your thinking and prove that you aren't being a sheeple.

2) You will immediately become aware of the following :



2 reasons why the Omtose case makes no sense.

1) It is predicated on the idea that I was being smooth and non-confrontational. If you actually look at my play, especially in relation to the play of others, you will realzie this is a completely made up falsehood.

2) It also is based on me steering the lynch away from Korbas. OMG! I didn't vote for the town finder! LYNCH ME NOU! In reality, I did what any normal mafia player does - I looked at two weak day 1 cases and decided one had more merit than the other. It aint rocket science.


That's all I'm going to say about the subject. I'm giong to do a re-read and see if anyone else jumps out at me. I'm at work though, so don't expect it immediately.

But you see Omtose, this is exactly your sticky situation.

From my point of view, people like Fener (completely off on his own having fun stirring up trouble), Liosan (very confrontational not really playing with the rest of the team), and Anthras (practically begging for a lynch, to the point of it being embarrassing) drop lower in my suspect pool because they are doing things that are considered very scummy, and risking their hides as a result. In my experience, only the really clever roled players or the uninhibited RIs tend to act like this.

You are playing smooth compared to these, correct? Am I wrong in saying you are acting helpful, demonstrating open doubt in lynch trains even so far as to say that someone is probably inno, but you'll vote to push through the lynch anyways?

Look at it another way: Liosan, Fener, and Amp all stayed off the lynch train till the bitter end, holding onto their pet theories. This doesn't exclude them from being scum, but I'll bet you dollars to pounds that scum is more likely on the trains than on the single cases (hence my suspicion of Eloth).

Anyways, this continues to be stream of consciousness, dangerous but I think well worth the effort. And please, argue back. Harrumps like Korv do no one any good

Since you ask nicely, I'll reply. I'm on a short break right now, so I haven't had time to read back yet and I'll keep this brief.



I realize I have a bias because I'm the target in this case, but I feel that making a case based on a belief of how scum may or may not play this game is a great way to clutter up a thread with WIFOM. When we get away from evidence created by action or inaction and how that ties to motive, we can make just about any case we want about "how scum might play". It wouldn't be a stretch to see the argument "Someone who brings up speculation on how scum would play is probably scum!"



Helpful, demonstrating doubt at someone's guilt but willing to vote to get a lynch? Yes, I am guilty of those things, but basing a decision of town or scum on that is going to get a lot of townies lynched from game to game.


One thing I should do is explain why I voted for Korv and stayed with that vote, since I'll admit I wasn't really as clear on that. I didnt actually like the initial case by Atrahal, but I wanted to apply pressure to Korv. Now, I can't very well apply pressure by adding a vote while poo-pooing the case at the same time, so I left it vague. I mean, if you go out and announce that it's a shaky case right away, why would anyone feel obligated to defend themselves against it? Keeping my vote there allowed me to see Korv's reaction, and to observe how the votes fell afterwards.


I didn't switch to Korbas, because both were so close in votes as things were getting more tense. I knew that a vote switch at that time from one of the two to the other could potentially act as the swing vote which determined who would get lynched, which in fact happened once Atrahal switched. I was using my vote and keeping an eye on the trains as a way of gleaning information - hence my case on Eloth/Korv now, since the way things went raised red flags for me.


edit: deleted a negative which created the opposite meaning than I intended.

The problem with this line of reasoning is: What are you going to do when you lynch me and I cf as town? Unless of course, you're on the scum team and this works in your favor. It would have been better for town if you had lynched me Day 1 and moved forward. If this wasn't a mini game, we could afford a couple days worth of wrong lynches and still recover, but its not and we can't, so instead you're going to pursue the same day 1 crap, lynch another town and the killers take out YET ANOTHER TOWNIE. Good plan. Anyways, I'm going to bed.

O-M-G-U-S

[Omtose]

Actually Korv, the derail of your lynch and Eloth's suspicious behavior only serves to make your MORE suspicious. It is disingenuous to suggest that I'm operating strictly on the original day 1 case. It should be obvious from my posts that I am not, so your attempt to construe it as such makes you seem even scummier IMO.



@Atrahal
If you look at what you wrote objectively, you need more information on Korv to consider voting for him, but are willing to vote me on very little information. Why the different standard for Korv and me?




As for the train, I didn't mention Karosis (other than including him in my summary) because I didn't find his vote to be particularily suspect, at least any more so than your typical hammer vote. As for Atrahal's switch, his vote was the swing vote and because his Korv vote was the first one, it's possible it was an early vote for a scum partner as a distancing move. I don't buy that though, because the vote hung there for such a long time, so for that reason I find the Atrahal switch less suspicious.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 20 hours and 24 minutes remaining

12 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korvalain, Liosan, Meanas, Omtose

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Fener ( Korvalain )
2 Votes for Korvalain ( Omtose, Driss )
1 Vote for Omtose ( Eloth )

Players not voted: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Fener, Karosis, Liosan, Meanas

-Liz

[Liosan]

That was a disaster of an opener, also when did the cf start giving away role? That leaves us at a serious disadvantage as in my mind the threat of a find is almost as useful as an actual find in a game of mafia.

Going to try and get my head around these cases and will respond to some specific posts that stood out since day began.

[Liosan]

Fener, on 19 June 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Well, at least we now know that there are townies with roles -- maybe a doc among us? Definitely be worth being substantive with cases from now on. I realise my vote for Korb above, though late, would have ticked us over to night and mea proxima culpa, but hey -- wasn'me!

Very cheerful response to losing a finder.

[Liosan]

Korvalain, on 19 June 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Karosis, on 19 June 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Anyone else find this a little weird?

Ampelas, on 18 June 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Right, I've just realised I'm not going to be around at all for the next 22 hours or so, so I'm placing my vote now.

Vote Anomandaris

Because he's the killer. Duh.

Ampelas posted very little in terms of content, then said he was going to bed, and threw a completely useless vote at Anomandaris without any explanation whatsoever for why. I think of everyone who was posting yesterday, Anomandaris seemed pretty level headed, didn't make any blatantly obvious scum moves, etc. Thought that COULD be an indication of why Amp voted for him, I'd like to hear Amp's reasoning for an Anomandaris vote.

xpost with Karosis. I agree, that was totally out in left field.

A few people brought this up yesterday and we didnt really get a response about it, i included it in my ampelas case and vote as well case for ameplas link.

Ampelas, on 19 June 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

At the time the numbers of votes on individuals were low and it was still early in the day, so it wouldn't have been a useless vote if people had decided to follow it. Certainly, it would have been a better choice than Korbas?

I chose Anomandaris because I chose between him and Liosan. At the time they were both in the middle posters, and Anomandaris appeared the more....what did you call it, level-headed? That's it exactly. Non-commital is another way of putting it.


Having said that, out of everything that came up after I left, I liked Eloth's case on Omtose the best. It always raises my suspicions when someone on day 1 talks about not believing another player's CF will come up scum. How would you know on day 1? What exactly are you basing this almost-certainty on, unless you have some prior knowledge? And who has prior knowledge in an M&P game? Only one answer to that (well, fine, two if you count symp ).

If ampelas had of posted it with some reasoning like above we might have taken a different view, the fact that he comes up with a good reasoning a day late when the number of people questioning it has gone from two to four is more than a little odd and makes the complete lack of content on day 1 all the more striking.

vote ampelas

You know i didnt like the way you were playing on day 1, and this response proves to my mind that it was a deliberate attempt at not posting rather than having nothing to say.

[Liosan]

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

For those of you who are saying the omtose case has merit or is good or whatever, would you please elaborate as to why?


Elaborating on your assertion would be good for two reasons.

1) It will help you to sound out your thinking and prove that you aren't being a sheeple.

2) You will immediately become aware of the following :



2 reasons why the Omtose case makes no sense.

1) It is predicated on the idea that I was being smooth and non-confrontational. If you actually look at my play, especially in relation to the play of others, you will realzie this is a completely made up falsehood.

2) It also is based on me steering the lynch away from Korbas. OMG! I didn't vote for the town finder! LYNCH ME NOU! In reality, I did what any normal mafia player does - I looked at two weak day 1 cases and decided one had more merit than the other. It aint rocket science.


That's all I'm going to say about the subject. I'm giong to do a re-read and see if anyone else jumps out at me. I'm at work though, so don't expect it immediately.

But you see Omtose, this is exactly your sticky situation.

From my point of view, people like Fener (completely off on his own having fun stirring up trouble), Liosan (very confrontational not really playing with the rest of the team), and Anthras (practically begging for a lynch, to the point of it being embarrassing) drop lower in my suspect pool because they are doing things that are considered very scummy, and risking their hides as a result. In my experience, only the really clever roled players or the uninhibited RIs tend to act like this.

You are playing smooth compared to these, correct? Am I wrong in saying you are acting helpful, demonstrating open doubt in lynch trains even so far as to say that someone is probably inno, but you'll vote to push through the lynch anyways?

Look at it another way: Liosan, Fener, and Amp all stayed off the lynch train till the bitter end, holding onto their pet theories. This doesn't exclude them from being scum, but I'll bet you dollars to pounds that scum is more likely on the trains than on the single cases (hence my suspicion of Eloth).

Anyways, this continues to be stream of consciousness, dangerous but I think well worth the effort. And please, argue back. Harrumps like Korv do no one any good

Much as I like being pushed down someones suspicious list because of something, it doesn't seem like you read the thread. I did think an ampelas lynch was the better option as out of everyone his day 1 contribution was the worst, but only held off swapping as long as I did because I had time and a vote either way would have sealed either Korv or Korbas' fate. Also I had posted some questions to korvalain and raised questions about korbas claiming town without provacation.

As for fener and ampelas they werent around while that was going on, so saying they held onto their pet theories is twisting the truth to make them look better. If a player isnt posting on thread they can hardly be said to maintaining their position on a train, unless you knew they were about but actively avoiding the thread?

[Atrahal]

@Om, the difference is your playstyle, even under pressure, has not changed remarkably. Korv went off the blustering deep end with pressure. I treat you two differently because you are two separate players with two separate cases.

Liosan, on 20 June 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Much as I like being pushed down someones suspicious list because of something, it doesn't seem like you read the thread. I did think an ampelas lynch was the better option as out of everyone his day 1 contribution was the worst, but only held off swapping as long as I did because I had time and a vote either way would have sealed either Korv or Korbas' fate. Also I had posted some questions to korvalain and raised questions about korbas claiming town without provacation.

As for fener and ampelas they werent around while that was going on, so saying they held onto their pet theories is twisting the truth to make them look better. If a player isnt posting on thread they can hardly be said to maintaining their position on a train, unless you knew they were about but actively avoiding the thread?

I disagree. As long as your vote is down on someone, that is where your commitment lies. So even though you were actively picking at other suspects your vote was on Amp, and therefore not only were you not on the train, but you were endorsing a different lynch altogether. You could have removed your vote afterall.

As for twisting the truth, I find that comment little twisted in and of itself. You missed the point. I was pointing out that it would be advantageous for scum to be on one of the two trains and as a result, those who were not helping the train along seemed less scummy from this perspective.

[D'riss]

Hath-Daper, on 20 June 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

It is Day 2. 20 hours and 24 minutes remaining

12 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korvalain, Liosan, Meanas, Omtose

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Fener ( Korvalain )
2 Votes for Korvalain ( Omtose, Driss )
1 Vote for Omtose ( Eloth )

Players not voted: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Fener, Karosis, Liosan, Meanas

-Liz

Psst, PS, Meanas has been killed.

[Liosan]

Atrahal, on 20 June 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

@Om, the difference is your playstyle, even under pressure, has not changed remarkably. Korv went off the blustering deep end with pressure. I treat you two differently because you are two separate players with two separate cases.

Liosan, on 20 June 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Much as I like being pushed down someones suspicious list because of something, it doesn't seem like you read the thread. I did think an ampelas lynch was the better option as out of everyone his day 1 contribution was the worst, but only held off swapping as long as I did because I had time and a vote either way would have sealed either Korv or Korbas' fate. Also I had posted some questions to korvalain and raised questions about korbas claiming town without provacation.

As for fener and ampelas they werent around while that was going on, so saying they held onto their pet theories is twisting the truth to make them look better. If a player isnt posting on thread they can hardly be said to maintaining their position on a train, unless you knew they were about but actively avoiding the thread?

I disagree. As long as your vote is down on someone, that is where your commitment lies. So even though you were actively picking at other suspects your vote was on Amp, and therefore not only were you not on the train, but you were endorsing a different lynch altogether. You could have removed your vote afterall.

As for twisting the truth, I find that comment little twisted in and of itself. You missed the point. I was pointing out that it would be advantageous for scum to be on one of the two trains and as a result, those who were not helping the train along seemed less scummy from this perspective.

I get that, i was waiting for korv to answer questions and hoping other people would come on to contribute. Unlike anthras I dont think we should rush just cause theres a possiblity no one will vote for six hours. But fener and amp werent posting at all, so to group the three of us together got my goat up a bit. As for twisting the truth, I am not saying its intentional, but if you read that statement out of context, as later in the game we may when skim reading it make it sound like their decision not to switch votes was a deliberate tactic, when even ampelas said he just wasnt on.

Atrahal, on 19 June 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Look at it another way: Liosan, Fener, and Amp all stayed off the lynch train till the bitter end, holding onto their pet theories. This doesn't exclude them from being scum, but I'll bet you dollars to pounds that scum is more likely on the trains than on the single cases (hence my suspicion of Eloth).

[Anomandaris]

Well how wrong could I have been? I mean I guess Retired Talon will look at this and take it as a learning curve for how not to play Finder. Losing a Finder is a big blow but at least we got the lynch and have a lot of information to go from. Going to have a look at the vote trains and see if there is anything there. I have a few thoughts to share then I can look at the cases made today so far.

[Anomandaris]

I was going to start from the next Update but this is how things stood before we only had two trains to go off. Korbas our finder was voting for Meanas and Meanas other known town was voting Eloth. Now was this a serious vote for Eloth? I'd need to check but if Meanas was a symp then it could be construed as signalling to Eloth. I'm going off the assumption that Meanas was town though at this point.

Hath-Daper, on 19 June 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

It is Day 1. 6 hours and 3 minutes remaining

13 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Driss, Eloth, Fener, Karosis, Korbas, Korvalain, Liosan, Meanas, Omtose

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Ampelas ( Fener, Liosan )
3 Votes for Meanas ( Eloth, Karosis, Korbas )
1 Vote for Anomandaris ( Ampelas )
3 Votes for Korvalain ( Atrahal, Omtose, Driss )
1 Vote for Eloth ( Meanas )
2 Votes for Korbas ( Anomandaris, Korvalain )

Players not voted: Anthras

-Liz

After this count Omtose defends Korbas. Now personally I haven't got a scum vibe from Omtose but scum are the only ones with info prior to day two so it could be seen as defending known town.

Omtose, on 19 June 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I don't get a scum vibe from Korbas. Scum can be abrasive, but it tends to be a non-committal abrasive. Korbas actually threw his vote around. I could be wrong of course, but I think I'd need a little more to switch my vote at this juncture.

I would, however, be willing to vote Eloth. Karosis AKA Mac played a pretty low posting first couple of days in our last M&P, and that left me a little disinclined to ignore the lower posters.

Now Meanas votes Korbas here and leaves. Meaning he will not be around to change his vote for the lynch. This adds a little momentum to the Korbas lynch and takes it away from the Korvalian lynch. IF Meanas was a symp then he did his job here.

Meanas, on 19 June 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

And with that, I bid you all good night.

Anthras over eagerness looked like a zealous town rather than a scum trying to push a lynch. All of his posts towards the end of the day look like a frantic town hoping we get a lynch and I cannot see scum standing out like this, this early. If it was towards the end of the game then it would be a lot different and he'd be very suspicious.

Anthras, on 19 June 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

There is 6 hours left in the day and we have not reached an
agreement,So now if i want to lynch someone i can do 2 things:
1.Vote Korvalain
2. Vote Meanas
because the only reason that 3 votes are on Meanas is jokes(2 votes where on him from joke period and the rest just voted cause of them),i will vote for Korvalain for now AND wait to see what will happen.


Vote Korvalain

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