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Diversity in fashion modeling Didn't expect this topic from CF did you?

#1 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 02:48 PM

I heard this interview on CBC with Ben Barry, a fellow who recently completed a PhD at Cambridge focusing on fashion market research.

Now, fashion usually isn't my bag at all, but I was really interested by what he had to say. His thesis challenges commonly held beliefs and rules of thumb in fashion advertising that it is necessary to have skinny models and that this "ideal" is what drives fashion purchasing. There are other more ridiculous ones (first 3 bolded points) touted by fashion industry people, and I think its appalling that they think that way. Barry argues, by contrast, that a diverse approach to fashion advertising where models reflect not only the size, but age and ethnicity of the target demographics clearly affects the purchase intentions of that demographic. I won't bother repeating it all here, because the writers at Elle honestly did a pretty convincing job, but have a read. It really makes sense when you think about it.

I also really like his pragmatic approach. I underlined a bit where he mentions that the "skinny model ideal" harms womens' self-image. This on its own isn't anything new, but the way he relates it to his research is interesting. He says the typical activist/government approach is to introduce laws and penalties for companies that glorify the skinny ideal in an effort to protect their citizens from harm. The fashion industry on the other hand is motivated solely by money, and so he based his evidence-gathering methods on purchase intentions and quantifiable statistics rather than wishy-washy anecdotal evidence. He wants to revolutionize the fashion industry with this, which I think is pretty admirable, and puts his money where his mouth is. He runs a modeling agency specifically for aspiring models of all body types/ages/ethnicities.

Anyway its original, ambitious and potentially revolutionary research, albeit in an subject I don't follow as a rule. I hope he's able to make a difference because my views and opinions on the matter are pretty much aligned with his.

Quote


COPIED FROM THE LINK BELOW SO IT COULD BE READ ALL IN ONCE PLACE:

Elle Canada Website


Can using different types of models benefit brands?
http://www.ellecanad...-brands/a/58327



When I first explained the topic of my doctoral thesis to my academic colleagues at Cambridge University, I was met with puzzled looks. "Models in advertising?" one asked. "You mean the economic model of advertising?" another questioned. I attempted to clarify: "I'm studying models in advertising—the women in the advertisements— and particularly in fashion advertisements," I said.

Their confusion and curiosity weren't unexpected. Although the impact of models on body image has been studied, very little research has been done on how models—depending on their size, age and race—influence purchasing decisions. Instead, marketers rely on long-established industry norms to guide their casting decisions. I wanted to challenge those norms to see if there was a business case to support a more diversified approach.

My research, which was funded by the Ogilvy Foundation, took me to cities across Canada and the United States, where I surveyed and facilitated focus groups with more than 2,500 women. They ranged in age from 14 to 65 and in dress size from 0 to 18, and they reflected a range of ethnicities. I recorded their responses to mock fashion ads—which I created for my study—that featured models who varied in size, age and race but all wore the same Diane von Furstenberg wrap dress. Save for the models, the ads were identical. My findings were surprisingly intuitive and yet revolutionary within the fashion industry. I'll get to the numbers in a moment. First, it's important to understand what misguided theories—rather than facts—are behind the casting decisions companies make for their marketing campaigns.

The general assumption that models are merely "clothes hangers" is rather pervasive in the multi-billion-dollar fashion industry, but they play a much more influential role: They are the bridge between the consumer and the brand. They not only demonstrate how clothes fit and flatter the human body but also convey a brand's image and identity. Most important, they breathe movement and vitality into clothes—transforming static garments into three-dimensional creations.

Yet, in spite of this, companies seldom cast models who reflect their markets. The typical model is size 2, whereas the average woman is size 14. Most models are between the ages of 15 and 24, yet there are more Canadians between 40 and 49 or 50 and 64. Only 10 percent of models in North American fashion ads are non-Caucasian, yet 16 percent of the Canadian population is non-Caucasian—and that increases to 40 percent for Toronto and Vancouver.

In the business community, the general consensus is that there is a discrepancy between marketing and the market because fashion advertising fuels consumer demand by creating a craving that can't be satisfied. In other words, marketers hire models to sell an image that most women can aspire to but never achieve. As Karl Lagerfeld explained in a recent interview on CNN: "Unreachable beauty is a reminder to make an effort. But if you see something, and you can reach what you see, then you do not have to make an effort anymore."

Researcher Naomi Mandel puts it more bluntly in reference to her work on models and self-esteem: "It's better to use extremely thin models because that's what makes women feel bad about themselves and want to buy the products." She adds that because women will never be as thin as the models, they'll always feel inadequate and continually demand the clothes.

Marketers also explain away the lack of diversity on "economies of scale"—a.k.a. the sample size. Fashion brands create a prototype of each garment in their collection—a sample— for marketing purposes months before its retail production. The sample is a size 2, which means that the model hired for fashion shows and ads must be a size 2. Although brands typically spend $750,000 to show at New York Fashion Week, they argue that creating samples in a few sizes—such as 4, 8 and 14— is too expensive; the extra inches of fabric might put them in the red.


Although I've worked as a modelling agent in the fashion industry for 15 years, I've never subscribed to the traditional viewpoint. My dad passed away when I was young, so I grew up surrounded and supported by women. While my mom, grandmother and aunt didn't look like typical models, I was always in awe of their beauty. I remember seeing my then 75-year-old grandmother on the night of her 50th wedding anniversary—in a floor-length ivory gown—and thinking that she was the most beautiful woman in the world.

When I was 14 years old, I had a friend who wanted to be a model, but every agency she went to told her that she was "too big." I was shocked; I couldn't understand why she—a size 12—was being rejected. I sent her pictures to a magazine and landed her a fashion spread. With one gig under my belt, I became her agent. Now, 15 years later, my single client has turned into a roster of 100 models who range in size, age, background and ability.

My experiences have fostered the steadfast belief that the fashion industry needs to broaden its perception of beauty—and I am not alone. Since the publication of Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth more than two decades ago, the debate over the size of models has gone mainstream. Hardly a fashion week goes by without the topic making headlines around the world. The story has been that ultra-thin models harm some women's well-being; by living in a culture where only thinness is celebrated, many women internalize it as their own beauty standard.

Some governments share this viewpoint. In Italy, legislation was enacted to prevent models who are too skinny from strutting catwalks. The French government considered imposing fines—even jail terms—on brand executives who promote "excessive thinness" in ads. Here in Canada, the Quebec provincial government introduced the Quebec Charter for Healthy and Diverse Body Image in 2009 to encourage the fashion industry to promote diversity. These responses are logical—governments are in the business of protecting the health of their citizens. But the fashion industry is in the business of business; it will only be motivated to diversify if it's a strategy that boosts the bottom line.

Recent anecdotal evidence has demonstrated that it can. When Dove launched its ads with "real women" in the United States, sales increased by 600 percent in two months. You'd think that such success would stir industry-wide change en masse; it didn't. The campaign's success was written off as an anomaly, and it was suggested that it was effective only because its novelty generated media attention. From the fashion perspective, Robert Kolker, a media-studies professor at the University of Maryland, argues that Dove's strategy is unlikely to translate to fashion brands because selling fashion is about illusion: "The ideal is too lovely a fantasy to give up.... Fairy tales are more potent than reality."

Nevertheless, some fashion brands have courageously, yet cautiously, used curvy and mature models. In September 2010, Tom Ford launched his eponymous womenswear collection during New York Fashion Week by showcasing his creations on a diverse group of women, including Rita Wilson and Lauren Hutton. Jean Paul Gaultier cast several models in the size 10 to 14 range to walk in his Spring/Summer 2011 show at Paris Fashion Week. He even hired plus-size singer Beth Ditto to open and close the show. But with only a few of these models in one show, and never in ad campaigns, their ability to help or hinder sales is unclear.

With my research, I hoped to explore that business potential. My study entailed two phases. In the first phase, I conducted experiments to test women's purchase intentions when they viewed models who had similar and dissimilar sizes, ages and races to themselves. Each woman was randomly shown two of eight possible ads where the models might have reflected some of their traits, all of their traits or none of their traits. To avoid biasing their opinions, I didn't reveal the true aims of my study to them. In the second phase, I facilitated focus groups with different women to help identify reasons for particular purchase intentions. I found that Canadian and American women increased purchase intentions for fashion products advertised by models who reflected their own demographics: age, size and—for non-Caucasians—race. While one side of the debate over model diversity argues that curvy models should replace thin ones— assuming that one model is universally more effective than another—I find that every model type can be effective. Their effectiveness depends on whether the model shares the consumers' traits.

My study found that women increased their purchase intentions by more than 200 percent when the models in the mock ads were their size. In the subgroup over size 6, women increased their purchase intentions by a dramatic 300 percent when they saw curvier models. Conversely, when women saw models who didn't reflect their size, they decreased their purchase intentions by 60 percent, and women over size 6 dropped their purchase intentions by 76 percent.

My results weren't limited to the issue of size. Consumers increased their purchase intentions by over 175 percent when they saw models who reflected their age; in particular, women over the age of 35 increased their purchase intentions by 200 percent when they saw older models. When models didn't reflect their age, consumers decreased their purchase intentions by 64 percent. Furthermore, black consumers were 1.5 times more likely to purchase a product advertised by a black model.

The numbers paint an interesting picture, but they don't tell the women's stories: Why did women increase purchase intentions when models looked like them? In the focus groups, women explained that they could better picture themselves in the dress advertised by similar models. They could imagine how the dress would flatter their shape, how the aesthetic would suit their age and how the colours would complement their complexion. One woman, on viewing a similar-looking model, put it this way: "I'd buy the dress in an instant because [the model] looks like me. I can see how this dress will hug my curves in all the right spots."

I also discovered that women—especially those seldom reflected in fashion ads—felt beautiful and confident when they saw models who reflected their traits and felt motivated to buy the dress. When one mature woman saw an older model, she explained: "[The model] does more than make me feel beautiful; she inspires me to go out and get this dress and celebrate my beauty." While some women in my study felt insecure when they saw idealized models, their insecurity didn't translate to purchase intentions as the industry hopes; it actually turned them off the product. As one of the participants summarized: "Ads like this want us to be part of their world, but they have the opposite effect for me. I feel excluded."

Contrary to long-held marketing wisdom, fashion ads don't need to lead women to aspire to an unattainable ideal to sell products. Instead, women will buy fashion when models convey a realistic, attainable image and make them feel confident; they will continue to demand the products to maintain the advertised look and their feelings of empowerment. To unleash this economic potential, brands should cast models who mirror the diversity of their target market: If a brand sells sizes 2 to 14 and the age of their target consumer is 18 to 35, the models should reflect the same size and age ranges. It's clearly in a brand's financial interest to create samples in a few sizes to reflect the diversity of their consumers.

My focus groups also revealed the conditions that need to be met if diverse models are going to be effective. Younger to middle-aged women explained that a fashion brand's commitment to diversity is just as important as showcasing it. As a result of online media, consumers— not only fashion journalists—now see the latest collections from fashion weeks around the world. When two of 20 models on a runway are larger or older, consumers appreciate the gesture but believe it's tokenistic. As one participant noted: "Showing one older woman out of 30 is really a marketing ploy—it's not a genuine appreciation of our beauty and, more important, our spending power." Tokenism also springs to mind when brands feature diverse models on their runways but not in their campaigns or merely as a one-time occurrence. Similarly, when a brand showcases curvy or older models in clothes that don't quite fit or flatter them, it looks like they're trying to grab a quick headline.

Marketers may also assume that using a larger or older model allows them to skimp on the creative direction—resulting in an image that looks more like a passport photo than a fashion ad. This practice reverses the positive effects of casting diverse models. The women in my research want models—regardless of size or age—to inspire them with glamour, artistry and creativity. One woman said it best: "What's the point of buying fashion if you're going to look unfashionable?" The underlying message is that fashion needs to sell aspiration, but it is not a standardized model's age, size or race that is aspirational; it is the clothes, styling and creative direction of the shoot.

What would our world look like if the results of my research influenced reality? Imagine this: You open a fashion magazine. It is filled with stunning glossy ads from the top fashion and beauty brands. You see gorgeous clothes, dramatic hair and makeup and breathtaking photography. Starring in these ads—showcasing fashion's glamour, artistry and creativity— are models who reflect the full panorama of women's beauty. So, brands, I ask you this: Will you continue to use an outdated marketing model or adapt to the new consumer mindset and reap the rewards?


This post has been edited by cerveza_fiesta: 15 June 2012 - 02:50 PM

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#2 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 06:44 PM

View Postcerveza_fiesta, on 15 June 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Quote

The numbers paint an interesting picture, but they don't tell the women's stories: Why did women increase purchase intentions when models looked like them? In the focus groups, women explained that they could better picture themselves in the dress advertised by similar models. They could imagine how the dress would flatter their shape, how the aesthetic would suit their age and how the colours would complement their complexion. One woman, on viewing a similar-looking model, put it this way: "I'd buy the dress in an instant because [the model] looks like me. I can see how this dress will hug my curves in all the right spots."



^^THIS. Couldn't agree more.

Great article CF, it was a good read. I can only hope that this study is taken seriously and results in some advertising businesses changing their ways, even if it takes a long time. I'm not much into "high" fashion (fashion shows, catwalks, named designers, etc), but from general impressions I don't foresee a study like this really changing much there. But that's okay, it's not really important what "high" fashion does, I think it would be much more important to see the mass-producing and semi-mass-producing clothes, plus body+beauty products, companies and their advertising teams change the way they market, since most of us are buying our clothes at shopping malls, not in Milan.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#3 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 02:26 AM

One thing I find myself skeptical of though - I find it hard to believe that the industry would be blind to this in the first place. I mean, don't big industries spend millions to research/focus-group the shit out of consumers, in order to sell as much and for as much as possible?
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#4 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 03:11 AM

I'm trying to get a copy of his thesis (more for my sis-in-law than myself). I assume it addresses that rather obvious question; it was the one of the first things I thought after reading the article and hearing the interview. Seems such a point would be hard to miss for an industry so dependent on selling things, but in his interview he did mention that there was a total vacuum of research on this particular issue. There was lots of research on the fashion business in general, lots of research on influences of the "ideals" on womens' self esteem etc... but very little work specifically linking the ideas of body image and buying intentions.

Fashion also has a rep for being very hoity-toity and giving the impression that it knows what it's about. Could be nobody looked into it because the industry collectively brushed off the idea as rubbish, and stayed set in its ways. That seems to be his contention more or less.

The fact that Barry received a Phd from such an esteemed university speaks to the originality and potential impact of the work too. Cambridge doesn't just hand out doctorates to any old chump with an idea.

Not really arguing with you Shrinei, just trying to offer explanations that I came up with after asking myself the same thing.
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#5 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 05:43 AM

Well, if what you say is true, it is certainly interesting. A little surprising, but it wouldn't be the first time an entire industry clung to an outdated model for no particular reason.























(pun intended)
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Posted 16 June 2012 - 07:12 AM

I'm on Kate Upton's side.
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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:10 AM

Well, since fashion industry stalwarts derive most (if not all) of their self-esteem from artificially creating "exclusivity", they may feel they'd never be able to go to Paris/Milan/Noo Yawk/London ever again if just any old person could wear their shit. Lose the "cool", lose the appeal. Transitory, cyclical fashion trends as a money-making model dies.

This would be a GOOD thing.

EDIT: upon reflection, I realise this isn't what you would call elegantly explained, so I hope you get the gist.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 17 June 2012 - 08:14 AM

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostSombra, on 17 June 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

Well, since fashion industry stalwarts derive most (if not all) of their self-esteem from artificially creating "exclusivity", they may feel they'd never be able to go to Paris/Milan/Noo Yawk/London ever again if just any old person could wear their shit. Lose the "cool", lose the appeal. Transitory, cyclical fashion trends as a money-making model dies.

This would be a GOOD thing.

EDIT: upon reflection, I realise this isn't what you would call elegantly explained, so I hope you get the gist.

That is not entirely true. When you look at the catwalk collections and the people able to regularly afford them, we're talking oil-sheikhs and their glamour wives, executives and their second-marriage glamour wives, and a whole bunch of 30+ aged well to do ladies, few of whom will conform to the body type of the runway model. It isn't all about catwalk collections. Those clothes don't make a profit, nor do the red carpet dresses et cetera. They're almost entertainment and publicity only. Sure, they may sell a few of the catwalk clothes at hefty sums each, but what these brands make money on, is still their retail collections: the stuff worn by the model girls and guys you find in your typical fashion magazines (as found at most hair salons), and accessories. I bet that behind both, there are marketing strategists at work, but they too are dependent on the creative forces of the label.

I rather think the article shows something else: fashion brands are really bad at marketing and reaching out because they're too focused on a pretty picture. AKA: the designer/ label owner is more focused on the momentary snapshot of his product (he may call it art) than on the after effects. By doing that, they estrange part of the opinion makers, they fail to lure in customers, and they show how far they're removed from things. Once they realize this, we will slowly see change. Some of the designers will stick to the old-school 15 year old shapeless sticks of a girl, but others will move on. If anything, the OP article represents a tiny glimmer of hope.

You might want to take a look at Melissawashere.com. It's the blog of Melissa Stetten (who had a hilarious on-flight twitter spat with an actor, Brian Presley), and it shows a bit of the behind the scenes stuff of being a model - in a funny, potty-mouthed and excellently written way. I doubt she feels exclusive or glamorous - and that's an insider :harhar:.
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#9 User is offline   Una 

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:35 PM

That blog is hilarious!

I especially liked this exchange:

Photographer: "You have goose bumps, could you get rid of those?"
Me: "I'm sorry, what?
Photographer: "Well, it's supposed to be a summer shoot, if you have goosebumps you'll look cold."
Me: "Hey, I'm cold, sorry my body is reacting in a natural way to the temperature."
Photographer: "You wanted to be a model, deal with it."

From what I can tell, purchase intentions don't have anything to do with "high fashion". The crazy stuff you see at runway shows can be vaguely likened to those crazy concept cars with the batmobile doors that hinge on the roof or have a bubble dome on the front and only seat that you see at car shows. Nobody actually buys those cars. They aren't for mass consumption, at least. It seems to be more a way to demo what the designer or engineering team can do. Most people can't afford or even wear that weird impractical high fashion stuff. It's not the real world. But somehow some of the concepts presented get adapted into the fashion for the regular folks. At that point, you'll actually notice the models are different. The runway model ideal seems to be unnaturally tall, no chest, no butt, stick arms and legs, small eyes, thin lips, and high, high cheekbones. It's actually a very harsh look. They aren't actually going for pretty. They're all like that because they're selling some idea. What the idea is, I haven't quite figured out, but then again, I'm not that fashionable. You'll notice that retail models tend to resemble the target demographic of the label and are picked according to what they are selling. Young models for young brands and older models for older brands and such. Lingerie models have to actually have breasts, and so on. Look at a cosmetics ad and you'll see yet another different look. Bigger eyes, fuller lips and softer facial features.

What boggles me a bit is why we should have to consider runway models some kind of ideal beauty to which we are supposed to aspire. They aren't. If we tried to go after the swimsuit models it would make more sense, although for most, it would be just as unattainable. Open up a men's magazine and you'll see a very different beauty ideal. But those are the body types that men find attractive, so if you are a woman trying to attract a man, that would seem to be the way to go. So out of all these different beauty ideals floating around, why is everyone so fixated on one very specialized area of modeling? Is it because it's the most bizarre?
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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:11 AM

View PostUna, on 17 June 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

That blog is hilarious!

I especially liked this exchange:

Photographer: "You have goose bumps, could you get rid of those?"
Me: "I'm sorry, what?
Photographer: "Well, it's supposed to be a summer shoot, if you have goosebumps you'll look cold."
Me: "Hey, I'm cold, sorry my body is reacting in a natural way to the temperature."
Photographer: "You wanted to be a model, deal with it."

From what I can tell, purchase intentions don't have anything to do with "high fashion". The crazy stuff you see at runway shows can be vaguely likened to those crazy concept cars with the batmobile doors that hinge on the roof or have a bubble dome on the front and only seat that you see at car shows. Nobody actually buys those cars. They aren't for mass consumption, at least. It seems to be more a way to demo what the designer or engineering team can do. Most people can't afford or even wear that weird impractical high fashion stuff. It's not the real world. But somehow some of the concepts presented get adapted into the fashion for the regular folks. At that point, you'll actually notice the models are different. The runway model ideal seems to be unnaturally tall, no chest, no butt, stick arms and legs, small eyes, thin lips, and high, high cheekbones. It's actually a very harsh look. They aren't actually going for pretty. They're all like that because they're selling some idea. What the idea is, I haven't quite figured out, but then again, I'm not that fashionable. You'll notice that retail models tend to resemble the target demographic of the label and are picked according to what they are selling. Young models for young brands and older models for older brands and such. Lingerie models have to actually have breasts, and so on. Look at a cosmetics ad and you'll see yet another different look. Bigger eyes, fuller lips and softer facial features.

What boggles me a bit is why we should have to consider runway models some kind of ideal beauty to which we are supposed to aspire. They aren't. If we tried to go after the swimsuit models it would make more sense, although for most, it would be just as unattainable. Open up a men's magazine and you'll see a very different beauty ideal. But those are the body types that men find attractive, so if you are a woman trying to attract a man, that would seem to be the way to go. So out of all these different beauty ideals floating around, why is everyone so fixated on one very specialized area of modeling? Is it because it's the most bizarre?

Because it is the most unhealthy - models have to be thinner and thinner and anorexia becomes almost a boon.

There is plenty of rage against the swimsuit special model type as well, because that too encourages an unattainable look for a great many women (if you have wide hips and small breasts, for example), and the whole cosmetic plastic surgery is very much thriving on that one and not on third degree burn victims, but at the very least, the regime doesn't seem as unhealthy as the runway type (then again, Halley Freedman once wrote that she interviewed a reasonably high profile movie-star who only ate soy and bananas or something to keep getting roles and maintain control of her figure).
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#11 User is offline   LadyMTL 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 01:19 PM

As a fashion lover for years now I'd just like to make one little aside about what comes down the runway. Like Tapper said, it isn't all about the catwalk. Yes, there are insanely expensive dresses that cost as much as or more than a house but those tend to be couture pieces and aren't really meant for the mass market. For example, this is a Dior couture gown and yeah, I don't think any of us will be parading down the street in it any time soon. :harhar: Contrast that with this, which is also Dior but is a lot more accessible / realistic to the consumer. Now I know that this doesn't really relate to the topic of diversity in modelling but I think lumping all fashion together as "unrealistic and unwearable" is oversimplifying things. No, it's not cheap but it's not all freakshow stuff either.

Anyway! On to the actual point of the article, lol. I understand where the author of the study is coming from but tbh there's nothing new under that sun. The industry has long gravitated towards a look that can best be described as "girl, eat a sandwich" and I don't think it'll change any time soon. It's true that in the early 90's the look was a lot healthier (think Cindy Crawford or Naomi Campbell, for example) but since Kate Moss came on the scene, the models have all been getting skinnier and skinnier and Kate really took off around 1993-94 so that's 18 years now! I doubt any normal woman, myself included, would relate to Kate Moss but compared to some of the models we see today she's practically huge. Now, I'm not trying to excuse the designers for perpetuating this unhealthy look but the fact is that it's not new and even some of the people who are against it have trouble sticking to their ideals. I don't know if anyone has read Crystal Renn's book "Hungry" but even she, for all her touting that she'd never be a waiflike model again, is a lot slimmer now than she was when the book came out.

It's an unfortunate fact but the designers themselves prefer to have skinny women wearing their clothes, for whatever reason...they drape better, the sample size is a 0 or 2, and so on. I do think that there's more to it than just what we see on the runway; what about shows like America's Next Top Model or even dreck like Fox's The Choice or heck, even Survivor or Big Brother? You don't see too many plus-sized women there, and TV has a much wider audience than print ads or fashion shows. I am crossing my fingers that things will change and I do find it encouraging to see more Asian models, for example, but to expect the industry to flip a switch overnight isn't going to happen, no matter how many studies come out.

And now I'll stop my Fashion 101 lesson, hahahaha. Sorry if this reads as a bit disjointed or teacher-y, it's early and I'm sleepy.

This post has been edited by Maia Irraz: 18 June 2012 - 01:24 PM

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 02:43 PM

View PostMaia Irraz, on 18 June 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

As a fashion lover for years now I'd just like to make one little aside about what comes down the runway. Like Tapper said, it isn't all about the catwalk. Yes, there are insanely expensive dresses that cost as much as or more than a house but those tend to be couture pieces and aren't really meant for the mass market. For example, this is a Dior couture gown and yeah, I don't think any of us will be parading down the street in it any time soon. :rolleyes: Contrast that with this, which is also Dior but is a lot more accessible / realistic to the consumer. Now I know that this doesn't really relate to the topic of diversity in modelling but I think lumping all fashion together as "unrealistic and unwearable" is oversimplifying things. No, it's not cheap but it's not all freakshow stuff either.

Anyway! On to the actual point of the article, lol. I understand where the author of the study is coming from but tbh there's nothing new under that sun. The industry has long gravitated towards a look that can best be described as "girl, eat a sandwich" and I don't think it'll change any time soon. It's true that in the early 90's the look was a lot healthier (think Cindy Crawford or Naomi Campbell, for example) but since Kate Moss came on the scene, the models have all been getting skinnier and skinnier and Kate really took off around 1993-94 so that's 18 years now! I doubt any normal woman, myself included, would relate to Kate Moss but compared to some of the models we see today she's practically huge. Now, I'm not trying to excuse the designers for perpetuating this unhealthy look but the fact is that it's not new and even some of the people who are against it have trouble sticking to their ideals. I don't know if anyone has read Crystal Renn's book "Hungry" but even she, for all her touting that she'd never be a waiflike model again, is a lot slimmer now than she was when the book came out.

It's an unfortunate fact but the designers themselves prefer to have skinny women wearing their clothes, for whatever reason...they drape better, the sample size is a 0 or 2, and so on. I do think that there's more to it than just what we see on the runway; what about shows like America's Next Top Model or even dreck like Fox's The Choice or heck, even Survivor or Big Brother? You don't see too many plus-sized women there, and TV has a much wider audience than print ads or fashion shows. I am crossing my fingers that things will change and I do find it encouraging to see more Asian models, for example, but to expect the industry to flip a switch overnight isn't going to happen, no matter how many studies come out.

And now I'll stop my Fashion 101 lesson, hahahaha. Sorry if this reads as a bit disjointed or teacher-y, it's early and I'm sleepy.


@ Side topic

The article isn't talking in any way shape or form about artistic runway high-fashion models. It's talking about the mainstream fashion industry you see represented in any standard-issue womens' magazine like Cosmo, Elle or whatever. Certainly, the world of high-fashion will always do whatever it likes, and the garments they come up with will never be bought by the masses. The industry (a moneymaking enterprise) and high-fashion (an artistic endeavour) are totally disparate and intended for different purposes, much like the "concept car" vs. production car analogy made above.

@Maia,

Not sure exactly what you 're getting at with the "nothing new" comment, the thesis (and article) does represent new work, otherwise it wouldn't have been accepted by the academic community. You might have missed the point; Barry isn't talking about prolific skinniness in fashion because, it has already been looked into by many other resaerchers. He looked into an area of fashion market research that hadn't been fully explored. Specifically he quantified the relationship between models' size/age/ethnicity and their target demographic's purchasing intentions. Underlying it all is the assumption (and IMO it is a correct one) that fashion marketing currently lives in an ideological fantasy land with respect to the models they choose. They don't pay enough attention to body/age/ethnicity in their ads, and because of that they are missing out on a lot of potential income. Maybe the issue has been discussed in a more philosophical sense, but Barry is the first to put solid numbers on it.

A crucial realization in his work is that the fashion industry must be treated like any other industry. They don't effect change on a whim, they are motivated primarily by money, and arguments for change based on monetary premises will invariably be the most powerful. Barry's research doesn't just report on a neato trend, it argues in favour of diversity among fashion models in language that businesses can understand. This is why I thought the work was worthy of note. It isn't just research for the sake of itself. It's directly relevant and useful to the industry involved, and happens to solve some nagging social issues along the way.
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#13 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:46 PM

Next, however, more research is needed on the conversion rate: i.e. the extent to which customers' stated purchasing intentions are actually turned into them handing over the cold hard cash/plastic. I imagine that there's a lot of research on precisely this in other industries, but fashion needs to carry out the research itself for it to start believing it.
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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:57 PM

Oh, I understood the point of the study but I personally don't think there's anything really new about it, other than the fact that he's quantified things that had before only been vaguely discussed. At the same time, though, I think that we all like to see relateable people in advertising, no matter what the product. Fashion is a bit of a special case IMHO because a lot of what they sell is the fantasy of the brand..."buy Louis Vuitton because Kanye West carries an LV bag and he's cool" and so on, whereas you don't see that being referenced too much for other, more mundane, products like dish soap or cat litter, lol.

I actually do agree with the author's point but I don't think the fashion industry is going to change much. If it does, it's going to take a looooong time and as UseOfWeapons said, they'll probably need to see some serious correlations before they start that kind of shift.

This post has been edited by Maia Irraz: 19 June 2012 - 04:58 PM

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:26 PM

View PostMaia Irraz, on 19 June 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Oh, I understood the point of the study but I personally don't think there's anything really new about it, other than the fact that he's quantified things that had before only been vaguely discussed. At the same time, though, I think that we all like to see relateable people in advertising, no matter what the product. Fashion is a bit of a special case IMHO because a lot of what they sell is the fantasy of the brand..."buy Louis Vuitton because Kanye West carries an LV bag and he's cool" and so on, whereas you don't see that being referenced too much for other, more mundane, products like dish soap or cat litter, lol.

I actually do agree with the author's point but I don't think the fashion industry is going to change much. If it does, it's going to take a looooong time and as UseOfWeapons said, they'll probably need to see some serious correlations before they start that kind of shift.


The point of the study is that the precise opposite of the underlined is actually true -- that's what the major finding of the study is.
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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:51 PM

View PostUseOfWeapons, on 19 June 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

View PostMaia Irraz, on 19 June 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Oh, I understood the point of the study but I personally don't think there's anything really new about it, other than the fact that he's quantified things that had before only been vaguely discussed. At the same time, though, I think that we all like to see relateable people in advertising, no matter what the product. Fashion is a bit of a special case IMHO because a lot of what they sell is the fantasy of the brand..."buy Louis Vuitton because Kanye West carries an LV bag and he's cool" and so on, whereas you don't see that being referenced too much for other, more mundane, products like dish soap or cat litter, lol.

I actually do agree with the author's point but I don't think the fashion industry is going to change much. If it does, it's going to take a looooong time and as UseOfWeapons said, they'll probably need to see some serious correlations before they start that kind of shift.


The point of the study is that the precise opposite of the underlined is actually true -- that's what the major finding of the study is.


Sigh...okay, I am going to be uber duber specific here so that I can get my point across : a lot of what the fashion industry does / how it positions itself is as an object of fantasy and that's why their tendency to use unrealistic images is so ingrained (as opposed to dish soap where you'll see the everyday man or woman). I know that the study proves the opposite to be effective and more desirable from the POV of the average person but obv that's not how fashion operates / sees itself at this point in time. If it were, there wouldn't have been a need for the study in the first place.

Heck, the study itself also references this: Robert Kolker, a media-studies professor at the University of Maryland, argues that Dove's strategy is unlikely to translate to fashion brands because selling fashion is about illusion: "The ideal is too lovely a fantasy to give up.... Fairy tales are more potent than reality."

And now I'm done with this topic. :rolleyes:

This post has been edited by Maia Irraz: 19 June 2012 - 06:00 PM

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostMaia Irraz, on 19 June 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

View PostUseOfWeapons, on 19 June 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

View PostMaia Irraz, on 19 June 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Oh, I understood the point of the study but I personally don't think there's anything really new about it, other than the fact that he's quantified things that had before only been vaguely discussed. At the same time, though, I think that we all like to see relateable people in advertising, no matter what the product. Fashion is a bit of a special case IMHO because a lot of what they sell is the fantasy of the brand..."buy Louis Vuitton because Kanye West carries an LV bag and he's cool" and so on, whereas you don't see that being referenced too much for other, more mundane, products like dish soap or cat litter, lol.

I actually do agree with the author's point but I don't think the fashion industry is going to change much. If it does, it's going to take a looooong time and as UseOfWeapons said, they'll probably need to see some serious correlations before they start that kind of shift.


The point of the study is that the precise opposite of the underlined is actually true -- that's what the major finding of the study is.


Sigh...okay, I am going to be uber duber specific here so that I can get my point across : a lot of what the fashion industry does / how it positions itself is as an object of fantasy and that's why their tendency to use unrealistic images is so ingrained (as opposed to dish soap where you'll see the everyday man or woman). I know that the study proves the opposite to be effective and more desirable from the POV of the average person but obv that's not how fashion operates / sees itself at this point in time. If it were, there wouldn't have been a need for the study in the first place.

Heck, the study itself also references this: Robert Kolker, a media-studies professor at the University of Maryland, argues that Dove's strategy is unlikely to translate to fashion brands because selling fashion is about illusion: "The ideal is too lovely a fantasy to give up.... Fairy tales are more potent than reality."

And now I'm done with this topic. :rolleyes:


I see what you're saying Maia, and it does make sense. Fashion might be too set in its ways to change its ideology, but if anything is going to change it, it's going to be the money argument.

That's why I made the distinction between the "industry" and "high fashion" in my last post. The latter will do whatever it wants regardless of what anyone thinks. The former is very motivated by the bottom line, and I dont' think for a second they would let a competitive advantage pass them by just because of some "selling the fantasy" ideal. Not that it won't take some convincing on Barry's part, but it does seem he's gone about it in the right way to construct an effective argument.

I dunno, whatever change he can manage to effect won't happen overnight but once his concepts are demonstrated by a few open-minded early adopters I can see the idea of diversity in fashion modeling really taking off. Again, modeling for the "industry"...not for the catwalks in France and Italy.
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#18 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 08:11 AM

Fashion Modeling arguably has the highest incidents of MK ultra.

Its wild if you go in with a open mind it really blows it! I can't really look at it the same as you just see this stuff everywhere now.

Most people don't believe, but really what are people being taught..its all propaganda. Your a victim..wake up!


NSFW:
http://pseudoccultmedia.blogspot.com/

Take a step back and think about what is really being sold to you.



some more focuses on monthly MK ultra pics in magazines
http://vigilantcitiz...the-month-0612/

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 21 June 2012 - 08:45 AM

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 08:56 AM

View PostNicodimas, on 21 June 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Fashion Modeling arguably has the highest incidents of MK ultra.

Its wild if you go in with a open mind it really blows it! I can't really look at it the same as you just see this stuff everywhere now.

Most people don't believe, but really what are people being taught..its all propaganda. Your a victim..wake up!


NSFW:
http://pseudoccultmedia.blogspot.com/

Take a step back and think about what is really being sold to you.



some more focuses on monthly MK ultra pics in magazines
http://vigilantcitiz...the-month-0612/


So, you're saying the highest incident rate related to CIA mind control experiments is to be found in the world of high fashion? What do you base that on? What do you even mean by that statement?
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Posted 21 June 2012 - 10:03 AM

J.P. Prewitt: Male models don't think for themselves.
Derek Zoolander: That's not true!
J.P. Prewitt: Yes it is, Derek.
Derek Zoolander: [meekly] Okay.

http://www.hark.com/...why-male-models

This post has been edited by Sombra: 21 June 2012 - 10:03 AM

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