[Korvalain]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

The problem is, as it always has been, the lack of information. The issue, as I see it, is that town has no idea how many people have been recruited. You have said yourself that recruits get extra abilities of some kind when they get recruited. In addition, they have a leader to look to, who again has more information than town has. So even supposing town cooperates with the cults and manages to out Batman, there is nothing to stop the cultists from decimating town at night and emerging victorious.

[Atrahal]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

RLY? I've been in hot water since day 1. I didn't just pop up. If anything, you just twitched your blinders and happened to notice me.

That's true, as far as it goes. Meanas was one of the first to have even a proto-chain start forming against him, though at the time there was little to no substance to it.

[Meanas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

Right now, there is little need for cooperation between town and cult. When we get closer to the D-day of Batman winning (if that should happen) then there will be need for cooperation, as we will have to be very careful about who we choose to lynch/kill.

Even then, there'll be room for backstabbing I'm sure

Oh, you mean the D-day where batman has 4 lives and we have 8 players left? Right. Exactly. Silly me.

[Telas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Sorry to be over snarky. You guys just tire me out. Feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall that only responds "Well, that's what she said..."

I am Joker's boytoy. Durr that's what she said.
Eloth really does have a LP. Hurr, that's what she said.
Town needs to cooperate temporarily with cult. Hehurr, that's what she said...

Okay genius, let's cooperate. You find us with proof the alt which is Batman, and we'll lynch him. Deal?

[Meanas]

Omtose, on 06 June 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Omtose, on 06 June 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

That's what I've been thinking. He popped up right about the time that Eloth started getting in trouble.

RLY? I've been in hot water since day 1. I didn't just pop up. If anything, you just twitched your blinders and happened to notice me.

No. You were in hotwater because you were a dumbass on day 1.

Only in people's minds eye. If I had been a CL, you would have called me clever at the end of the game for being such a ballsy player. You all assumed a lot, including that I was town going against my VCs. And then throwing a hissy fit when Ment didn't give you a modkill to tell you one way or another.

[Spite]

Korbas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

What can you offer us? Nothing that I can think of. Feel free to cooperate within your cult circles, but you have squat to offer town, and much harm to do.

You need to look again Korbas. He can cause harm, yes, but there is always the possibility that if you ignore him you will miss something important. Yes, take everything he says with multiple pinches of salt, but don't let the blinders, well, blind you

[Telas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

Right now, there is little need for cooperation between town and cult. When we get closer to the D-day of Batman winning (if that should happen) then there will be need for cooperation, as we will have to be very careful about who we choose to lynch/kill.

Even then, there'll be room for backstabbing I'm sure

Oh, you mean the D-day where batman has 4 lives and we have 8 players left? Right. Exactly. Silly me.

Nope, I mean the one where there's just one of your cult leaders left around. Wouldn't want to lynch him by mistake

If your cults really wanted to cooperate, then they shouldn't recruit any town members whilst we're cooperating. You know, in the spirit of cooperation.

[Meanas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Sorry to be over snarky. You guys just tire me out. Feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall that only responds "Well, that's what she said..."

I am Joker's boytoy. Durr that's what she said.
Eloth really does have a LP. Hurr, that's what she said.
Town needs to cooperate temporarily with cult. Hehurr, that's what she said...

Okay genius, let's cooperate. You find us with proof the alt which is Batman, and we'll lynch him. Deal?

You want a signed confession in monosyllabic words (I guess he'll have to put a hypen in his name then...) or can you handle a good case?

[Meanas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

Right now, there is little need for cooperation between town and cult. When we get closer to the D-day of Batman winning (if that should happen) then there will be need for cooperation, as we will have to be very careful about who we choose to lynch/kill.

Even then, there'll be room for backstabbing I'm sure

Oh, you mean the D-day where batman has 4 lives and we have 8 players left? Right. Exactly. Silly me.

Nope, I mean the one where there's just one of your cult leaders left around. Wouldn't want to lynch him by mistake

If your cults really wanted to cooperate, then they shouldn't recruit any town members whilst we're cooperating. You know, in the spirit of cooperation.

Right, like we lynched Eloth yesterday. Again, silly me

[Atrahal]

The problem with cooperation (not just in Mafia, but in life) is that it only takes one person to take advantage of it before it collapses as a strategy. It's not a stable state. As such, probably the best we can do is to play from the position we are in without trying to attribute motivations and strategies to other participants. Enlightened self-interest, if you will. What result that self-interest comes up with will change as the balance of probability and information favours one course of action over another during the course of any given day.

Currently, as far as I see it, for me personally the best course of action is to target Batman for lynching; and if, by the time voting comes around again, I don't know enough to be sure of a BM vote, to target a known CL. If I had any kill options, I might choose to use them on a BM suspect and see what the result might be.

[Telas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

Right now, there is little need for cooperation between town and cult. When we get closer to the D-day of Batman winning (if that should happen) then there will be need for cooperation, as we will have to be very careful about who we choose to lynch/kill.

Even then, there'll be room for backstabbing I'm sure

Oh, you mean the D-day where batman has 4 lives and we have 8 players left? Right. Exactly. Silly me.

Nope, I mean the one where there's just one of your cult leaders left around. Wouldn't want to lynch him by mistake

If your cults really wanted to cooperate, then they shouldn't recruit any town members whilst we're cooperating. You know, in the spirit of cooperation.

Right, like we lynched Eloth yesterday. Again, silly me

We didn't have our cooperation agreement then And why exactly do you care so much about Eloth being lynched? I'd think you'd find one of the rival cults being cut off at the head a pleasing notion - increases your chances of winning exponentially, no?

[Meanas]

Korvalain, on 06 June 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

The problem is, as it always has been, the lack of information. The issue, as I see it, is that town has no idea how many people have been recruited. You have said yourself that recruits get extra abilities of some kind when they get recruited. In addition, they have a leader to look to, who again has more information than town has. So even supposing town cooperates with the cults and manages to out Batman, there is nothing to stop the cultists from decimating town at night and emerging victorious.

Correct, which is why I was surprised at the hard line at the start of the game on thinking long term (I still admit I am wrong to the letter of the law, but I would have believed this without writing it in words). The cooperation I am talking about gives town a way to save face and move toward their VCs. It's a war of attrition, with town trying to be efficient enough to get rid of batman to have time to maintain pleurality. The way town is dicking around, this is growing less and less likely to happen. CLs need batman gone, but if we had moved fast enough such that cults still had small populations, they would start dwadling so as to give themselves more time to recruit. That's when town would need to pick up the slack. That would be one of the few viable town strategies that I could think of.

[Telas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Sorry to be over snarky. You guys just tire me out. Feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall that only responds "Well, that's what she said..."

I am Joker's boytoy. Durr that's what she said.
Eloth really does have a LP. Hurr, that's what she said.
Town needs to cooperate temporarily with cult. Hehurr, that's what she said...

Okay genius, let's cooperate. You find us with proof the alt which is Batman, and we'll lynch him. Deal?

You want a signed confession in monosyllabic words (I guess he'll have to put a hypen in his name then...) or can you handle a good case?

Thyrllan and Tulas Shorn will give you a million bucks each if you can come up with a good case.

[Meanas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

Right now, there is little need for cooperation between town and cult. When we get closer to the D-day of Batman winning (if that should happen) then there will be need for cooperation, as we will have to be very careful about who we choose to lynch/kill.

Even then, there'll be room for backstabbing I'm sure

Oh, you mean the D-day where batman has 4 lives and we have 8 players left? Right. Exactly. Silly me.

Nope, I mean the one where there's just one of your cult leaders left around. Wouldn't want to lynch him by mistake

If your cults really wanted to cooperate, then they shouldn't recruit any town members whilst we're cooperating. You know, in the spirit of cooperation.

Right, like we lynched Eloth yesterday. Again, silly me

We didn't have our cooperation agreement then And why exactly do you care so much about Eloth being lynched? I'd think you'd find one of the rival cults being cut off at the head a pleasing notion - increases your chances of winning exponentially, no?

Not really. Eloth's death hastens the end of the game. You really don't think that far into the future do you Telas...

[Meanas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Sorry to be over snarky. You guys just tire me out. Feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall that only responds "Well, that's what she said..."

I am Joker's boytoy. Durr that's what she said.
Eloth really does have a LP. Hurr, that's what she said.
Town needs to cooperate temporarily with cult. Hehurr, that's what she said...

Okay genius, let's cooperate. You find us with proof the alt which is Batman, and we'll lynch him. Deal?

You want a signed confession in monosyllabic words (I guess he'll have to put a hypen in his name then...) or can you handle a good case?

Thyrllan and Tulas Shorn will give you a million bucks each if you can come up with a good case.

I would settle for them shoving as much up your tight-sphincterd ass.

[Korbas]

Spite, on 06 June 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

You need to look again Korbas. He can cause harm, yes, but there is always the possibility that if you ignore him you will miss something important. Yes, take everything he says with multiple pinches of salt, but don't let the blinders, well, blind you

I'm not ignoring him. I just don't understand what he wants. We're not actively trying to lynch cult anymore (at least I'm not). I don't understand his cooperation thing. Just rings false to me.

[Telas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Korvalain, on 06 June 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

The problem is, as it always has been, the lack of information. The issue, as I see it, is that town has no idea how many people have been recruited. You have said yourself that recruits get extra abilities of some kind when they get recruited. In addition, they have a leader to look to, who again has more information than town has. So even supposing town cooperates with the cults and manages to out Batman, there is nothing to stop the cultists from decimating town at night and emerging victorious.

Correct, which is why I was surprised at the hard line at the start of the game on thinking long term (I still admit I am wrong to the letter of the law, but I would have believed this without writing it in words). The cooperation I am talking about gives town a way to save face and move toward their VCs. It's a war of attrition, with town trying to be efficient enough to get rid of batman to have time to maintain pleurality. The way town is dicking around, this is growing less and less likely to happen. CLs need batman gone, but if we had moved fast enough such that cults still had small populations, they would start dwadling so as to give themselves more time to recruit. That's when town would need to pick up the slack. That would be one of the few viable town strategies that I could think of.

NO.


This is not correct, and I hope no one is unwisely fooled.

It seems to make sense, but it's actually PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for town to win this way. Why? If town entirely ignores cult, and goes entirely for Batman, then EVEN IF THEY HIT BATMAN EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR 4 DAYS IN A ROW, TOWN STILL LOSE. Why? Because more than likely enough have been recruited to cults. Eloth has already owned up to a double-recruit ability.

Cults need to recruit and take out Batman.

Batman needs to take out cult leaders.

Town needs to take out Batman AND the majority of cult leaders to stand a chance of winning.

[Korbas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Right, like we lynched Eloth yesterday. Again, silly me

To test the existence of an LP. Perfectly justified, imo.

[Meanas]

Atrahal, on 06 June 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

The problem with cooperation (not just in Mafia, but in life) is that it only takes one person to take advantage of it before it collapses as a strategy. It's not a stable state. As such, probably the best we can do is to play from the position we are in without trying to attribute motivations and strategies to other participants. Enlightened self-interest, if you will. What result that self-interest comes up with will change as the balance of probability and information favours one course of action over another during the course of any given day.

Currently, as far as I see it, for me personally the best course of action is to target Batman for lynching; and if, by the time voting comes around again, I don't know enough to be sure of a BM vote, to target a known CL. If I had any kill options, I might choose to use them on a BM suspect and see what the result might be.

Which is why town loses as often as it does. We really enjoy the moment to moment bickering and accusations. We enjoy the fact that looking at a few quotes gives us a sparkling case of BS that sounds good and can get someone lynched. It's fun to hurry along a lynch to see the CF and see if we reeled in the big fish.

It isn't as fun hashing out a strategy. And as for motivation, it truly is easy in this game. We have a timer that is measured in the lifespan of the 4 CLs or batman's 4 lives. However, if we try to get the CL clock ticking without attention to the batman clock, we all lose. If we run down the batman clock, that frees up space for a whole host of backstabbing and jockying for position. But if town wants to be in on that end game frenzy, they need to get their rears in gear and get the batman clock down to a place that allows them to win. And cults have the same motivation. In fact, without cooperation, we will see what happens in the comic books: BM takes advantage of the infighting and power plays, taking down his isolated prey, one by one.

[Telas]

Taking out cult leaders significantly increases the percentage of town players remaining town players. This NEEDS to happen for town to win.

It's a balancing act, and, as usual, it's very tough for town to win in a cult game.

Eloth has to die as much as Batman does for town to have a shot at winning. The only question is in which order we do it.