[Meanas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Korvalain, on 06 June 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

The problem is, as it always has been, the lack of information. The issue, as I see it, is that town has no idea how many people have been recruited. You have said yourself that recruits get extra abilities of some kind when they get recruited. In addition, they have a leader to look to, who again has more information than town has. So even supposing town cooperates with the cults and manages to out Batman, there is nothing to stop the cultists from decimating town at night and emerging victorious.

Correct, which is why I was surprised at the hard line at the start of the game on thinking long term (I still admit I am wrong to the letter of the law, but I would have believed this without writing it in words). The cooperation I am talking about gives town a way to save face and move toward their VCs. It's a war of attrition, with town trying to be efficient enough to get rid of batman to have time to maintain pleurality. The way town is dicking around, this is growing less and less likely to happen. CLs need batman gone, but if we had moved fast enough such that cults still had small populations, they would start dwadling so as to give themselves more time to recruit. That's when town would need to pick up the slack. That would be one of the few viable town strategies that I could think of.

NO.


This is not correct, and I hope no one is unwisely fooled.

It seems to make sense, but it's actually PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for town to win this way. Why? If town entirely ignores cult, and goes entirely for Batman, then EVEN IF THEY HIT BATMAN EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR 4 DAYS IN A ROW, TOWN STILL LOSE. Why? Because more than likely enough have been recruited to cults. Eloth has already owned up to a double-recruit ability.

Cults need to recruit and take out Batman.

Batman needs to take out cult leaders.

Town needs to take out Batman AND the majority of cult leaders to stand a chance of winning.

Town can't take out cult leaders without wasting a lot of effort and time (if they can take out CLs at all...). Moreover, the more town fiddles around with lynching cult suspects, the more chances it has of shooting itself uselessly in the foot. Can't go for both mate. One or the other, two simultaneous clocks. Town has to rely on cult squabbling enough and running into eachother enough to prevent efficient recruitment.

You take away competition, and there will be a monopoly. Remember, if cult dives for the same person, that person is not recruited by either. If there is only one CL, it's a win every time.

[Korbas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 06 June 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

The problem with cooperation (not just in Mafia, but in life) is that it only takes one person to take advantage of it before it collapses as a strategy. It's not a stable state. As such, probably the best we can do is to play from the position we are in without trying to attribute motivations and strategies to other participants. Enlightened self-interest, if you will. What result that self-interest comes up with will change as the balance of probability and information favours one course of action over another during the course of any given day.

Currently, as far as I see it, for me personally the best course of action is to target Batman for lynching; and if, by the time voting comes around again, I don't know enough to be sure of a BM vote, to target a known CL. If I had any kill options, I might choose to use them on a BM suspect and see what the result might be.

Which is why town loses as often as it does. We really enjoy the moment to moment bickering and accusations. We enjoy the fact that looking at a few quotes gives us a sparkling case of BS that sounds good and can get someone lynched. It's fun to hurry along a lynch to see the CF and see if we reeled in the big fish.

It isn't as fun hashing out a strategy. And as for motivation, it truly is easy in this game. We have a timer that is measured in the lifespan of the 4 CLs or batman's 4 lives. However, if we try to get the CL clock ticking without attention to the batman clock, we all lose. If we run down the batman clock, that frees up space for a whole host of backstabbing and jockying for position. But if town wants to be in on that end game frenzy, they need to get their rears in gear and get the batman clock down to a place that allows them to win. And cults have the same motivation. In fact, without cooperation, we will see what happens in the comic books: BM takes advantage of the infighting and power plays, taking down his isolated prey, one by one.

Shut up. Just shut the fuck up.



Cult has just as much reason to lynch B man as town does.

Now do you have a case? If not, stop. You're not saying anything. You just keep repeating the same thing, when it doesn't -mean- anything. What is cooperation, in this instance? Your idea of cult leaders revealing, and us promising not to lynch them right away? That's on the cult leaders, not us.

[Meanas]

Korbas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 06 June 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

The problem with cooperation (not just in Mafia, but in life) is that it only takes one person to take advantage of it before it collapses as a strategy. It's not a stable state. As such, probably the best we can do is to play from the position we are in without trying to attribute motivations and strategies to other participants. Enlightened self-interest, if you will. What result that self-interest comes up with will change as the balance of probability and information favours one course of action over another during the course of any given day.

Currently, as far as I see it, for me personally the best course of action is to target Batman for lynching; and if, by the time voting comes around again, I don't know enough to be sure of a BM vote, to target a known CL. If I had any kill options, I might choose to use them on a BM suspect and see what the result might be.

Which is why town loses as often as it does. We really enjoy the moment to moment bickering and accusations. We enjoy the fact that looking at a few quotes gives us a sparkling case of BS that sounds good and can get someone lynched. It's fun to hurry along a lynch to see the CF and see if we reeled in the big fish.

It isn't as fun hashing out a strategy. And as for motivation, it truly is easy in this game. We have a timer that is measured in the lifespan of the 4 CLs or batman's 4 lives. However, if we try to get the CL clock ticking without attention to the batman clock, we all lose. If we run down the batman clock, that frees up space for a whole host of backstabbing and jockying for position. But if town wants to be in on that end game frenzy, they need to get their rears in gear and get the batman clock down to a place that allows them to win. And cults have the same motivation. In fact, without cooperation, we will see what happens in the comic books: BM takes advantage of the infighting and power plays, taking down his isolated prey, one by one.

Shut up. Just shut the fuck up.



Cult has just as much reason to lynch B man as town does.

Now do you have a case? If not, stop. You're not saying anything. You just keep repeating the same thing, when it doesn't -mean- anything. What is cooperation, in this instance? Your idea of cult leaders revealing, and us promising not to lynch them right away? That's on the cult leaders, not us.

No you fucking idiot, you shut up.

[Meanas]

If you can't take the discussion Korbas, take a break, have a cup of tea, get a massage, come back when you are ready to read and comment, not spew worthlessness.

[Spite]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Korbas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 06 June 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

The problem with cooperation (not just in Mafia, but in life) is that it only takes one person to take advantage of it before it collapses as a strategy. It's not a stable state. As such, probably the best we can do is to play from the position we are in without trying to attribute motivations and strategies to other participants. Enlightened self-interest, if you will. What result that self-interest comes up with will change as the balance of probability and information favours one course of action over another during the course of any given day.

Currently, as far as I see it, for me personally the best course of action is to target Batman for lynching; and if, by the time voting comes around again, I don't know enough to be sure of a BM vote, to target a known CL. If I had any kill options, I might choose to use them on a BM suspect and see what the result might be.

Which is why town loses as often as it does. We really enjoy the moment to moment bickering and accusations. We enjoy the fact that looking at a few quotes gives us a sparkling case of BS that sounds good and can get someone lynched. It's fun to hurry along a lynch to see the CF and see if we reeled in the big fish.

It isn't as fun hashing out a strategy. And as for motivation, it truly is easy in this game. We have a timer that is measured in the lifespan of the 4 CLs or batman's 4 lives. However, if we try to get the CL clock ticking without attention to the batman clock, we all lose. If we run down the batman clock, that frees up space for a whole host of backstabbing and jockying for position. But if town wants to be in on that end game frenzy, they need to get their rears in gear and get the batman clock down to a place that allows them to win. And cults have the same motivation. In fact, without cooperation, we will see what happens in the comic books: BM takes advantage of the infighting and power plays, taking down his isolated prey, one by one.

Shut up. Just shut the fuck up.



Cult has just as much reason to lynch B man as town does.

Now do you have a case? If not, stop. You're not saying anything. You just keep repeating the same thing, when it doesn't -mean- anything. What is cooperation, in this instance? Your idea of cult leaders revealing, and us promising not to lynch them right away? That's on the cult leaders, not us.

No you fucking idiot, you shut up.

How bout we all just calm down?

[Meanas]

Ok, bike ride home time. Hopefully I will have some more conversation when I get back. I appreciate being talked to, and hopefully what I'm saying is getting through, or at least people can see where I'm coming from.

Brb.

[Korvalain]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Korvalain, on 06 June 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

So since you are acknowledging my existence, do you agree or disagree with cooperation? Am I entirely unrealistic or off base, or are their just too many boneheaded hecklers who can't think up a better idea than lynching a LP.

The problem is, as it always has been, the lack of information. The issue, as I see it, is that town has no idea how many people have been recruited. You have said yourself that recruits get extra abilities of some kind when they get recruited. In addition, they have a leader to look to, who again has more information than town has. So even supposing town cooperates with the cults and manages to out Batman, there is nothing to stop the cultists from decimating town at night and emerging victorious.

Correct, which is why I was surprised at the hard line at the start of the game on thinking long term (I still admit I am wrong to the letter of the law, but I would have believed this without writing it in words). The cooperation I am talking about gives town a way to save face and move toward their VCs. It's a war of attrition, with town trying to be efficient enough to get rid of batman to have time to maintain pleurality. The way town is dicking around, this is growing less and less likely to happen. CLs need batman gone, but if we had moved fast enough such that cults still had small populations, they would start dwadling so as to give themselves more time to recruit. That's when town would need to pick up the slack. That would be one of the few viable town strategies that I could think of.

NO.


This is not correct, and I hope no one is unwisely fooled.

It seems to make sense, but it's actually PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for town to win this way. Why? If town entirely ignores cult, and goes entirely for Batman, then EVEN IF THEY HIT BATMAN EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR 4 DAYS IN A ROW, TOWN STILL LOSE. Why? Because more than likely enough have been recruited to cults. Eloth has already owned up to a double-recruit ability.

Cults need to recruit and take out Batman.

Batman needs to take out cult leaders.

Town needs to take out Batman AND the majority of cult leaders to stand a chance of winning.

Exactly. Town needs to maintain a balance between taking out Batman and the Cult Leaders to have any chance at plurality at the end of the game. We cannot afford to let the CLs off the hook completely while we run around hunting Batman. The issue is that if we can't lynch CLs then we are relying on Batman, recruits, other CLs and whatever roles we have as town to take out the CLs.

[Telas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Town can't take out cult leaders without wasting a lot of effort and time (if they can take out CLs at all...). Moreover, the more town fiddles around with lynching cult suspects, the more chances it has of shooting itself uselessly in the foot. Can't go for both mate. One or the other, two simultaneous clocks. Town has to rely on cult squabbling enough and running into eachother enough to prevent efficient recruitment.

You take away competition, and there will be a monopoly. Remember, if cult dives for the same person, that person is not recruited by either. If there is only one CL, it's a win every time.

My dear, you talk about chance and taking chances and this being a waste of time and then you bring up - as a supposedly convincing argument - that town should rely on the CHANCE that CLs go for the same recruits?


It's certainly not a chance if we already know one, possibly two, of the CLs. Why hope on chance when we can take it into our own hands to screw over a CL by lynching them (ahem, eventually ).

And what's the difference between taking a chance on a CL suspect and getting it wrong, and taking a chance on a Batman suspect and getting it wrong? No difference at all.

One thing you say is true: Town will need luck to win. And I think in some ways we got some of that luck today.

[Korbas]

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

If you can't take the discussion Korbas, take a break, have a cup of tea, get a massage, come back when you are ready to read and comment, not spew worthlessness.

There's no discussion? As I said before, you aren't actually saying anything.

How do you propose we cooperate?

Here's how I understand your proposal:


Cult reveals (are you still on this? I remember this from last night).

Town doesn't lynch cult, town lynches batman.

Cult recruits the whole time. Town loses.


-or is it-


Cult doesn't reveal. Known cult (you and eloth, possibly amp) work together with town to find batman, we lynch him.

We don't lynch cult.

They recruit the whole time

Town loses.



Just as everyone else is saying, it should be a balance. Right now we should lynch batman, because there is a member of the cult revealed, and another possible member.

If batman doesn't eliminate any cult in the inbetween, we might need to lynch cult again before we finish him off.

[Korbas]

Anyway, I just had a thought. Pardon the big text, I just want the cult leaders to see it.



Attention Cult Leaders. All 4 of you.





Especially you Joker. Could you please claim Meanas as yours/not yours via your public broadcast. If you claim him as yours, we have no reason to lynch him. But if all 4 of you deny it...

I have this strange feeling Meanas is batman.

I know you don't want to lose your recruit. You know we don't want to lynch measly recruits. So one of you simply claim him, and we'll know not to waste the lynch we could be using on batman, on him.

I, for one, only care about lynching batman today. So there you go. Hopefully you consider this.

[D'riss]

Jesus Christ, two pages after I checked in later.... I've read through.

IF we have a good case on Batman, we must needs get Batman. Eloth should be as good as dead at some point soon by Batman. Whether it's better to try to lynch him again to save recruitment vs. keep him and lynch away possible town in an effort to get Batman is something I could be persuaded on. But, if all CL's have an LP and I now think they do, the job is much harder.

The thing is, we are left off at the beginning, basically a scum hunt for Batman while Cult just picks apart town and tries to stay alive.

[Korbas]

Oh, &

Vote Meanas

until he is claimed.

[Spite]

If we're talking strategy, I say we go for batman today, and then either:
A: Batman kills off a cl, so we hunt for batman,
Or
B: Batman doesn't kill a recruiter so we go for eloth and finish him off.

This is my opinion and does not express tge views of the TV show providers.

[Telas]

Korbas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Oh, &

Vote Meanas

until he is claimed.

Still night, dude. I like your idea though.

[Korbas]

Spite, on 06 June 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

If we're talking strategy, I say we go for batman today, and then either:
A: Batman kills off a cl, so we hunt for batman,
Or
B: Batman doesn't kill a recruiter so we go for eloth and finish him off.

This is my opinion and does not express tge views of the TV show providers.

Seconded, I think

[Korbas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Korbas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Oh, &

Vote Meanas

until he is claimed.

Still night, dude. I like your idea though.

Oh yeah. Woops.

[Spite]

I like the "claiming" recruits via public broadcast idea, korby. Very inspired

[Meanas]

Telas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Meanas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Town can't take out cult leaders without wasting a lot of effort and time (if they can take out CLs at all...). Moreover, the more town fiddles around with lynching cult suspects, the more chances it has of shooting itself uselessly in the foot. Can't go for both mate. One or the other, two simultaneous clocks. Town has to rely on cult squabbling enough and running into eachother enough to prevent efficient recruitment.

You take away competition, and there will be a monopoly. Remember, if cult dives for the same person, that person is not recruited by either. If there is only one CL, it's a win every time.

My dear, you talk about chance and taking chances and this being a waste of time and then you bring up - as a supposedly convincing argument - that town should rely on the CHANCE that CLs go for the same recruits?


It's certainly not a chance if we already know one, possibly two, of the CLs. Why hope on chance when we can take it into our own hands to screw over a CL by lynching them (ahem, eventually ).

And what's the difference between taking a chance on a CL suspect and getting it wrong, and taking a chance on a Batman suspect and getting it wrong? No difference at all.

One thing you say is true: Town will need luck to win. And I think in some ways we got some of that luck today.

Enjoying mincing words and missing the idea Telas.

I think you and Korby need to get a room

[Meanas]

Korbas, on 06 June 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Anyway, I just had a thought. Pardon the big text, I just want the cult leaders to see it.



Attention Cult Leaders. All 4 of you.





Especially you Joker. Could you please claim Meanas as yours/not yours via your public broadcast. If you claim him as yours, we have no reason to lynch him, except that we are twats who can't let go of a day 1 grudge at being baited and lead around like a fool. But if all 4 of you deny it...

I have this strange feeling Me anus is batman.

I know you don't want to lose your recruit. You know we don't want to lynch measly recruits, we would rather beat our heads against a LP wall. So one of you simply claim him, and we'll know not to waste the lynch on even less useful ideas we could be using to benefit on batman, on him.

I, for one, only don't care about lynching batman today. So there you go. Hopefully you consider this.

Fixed Edit, and fixed a couple more times for shits and giggles and to capture what you were saying more clearly

This post has been edited by Meanas: 06 June 2012 - 11:57 PM

[Meanas]

Obviously, I'm back btw.