[Okaros]

Atrahal, on 17 April 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Okaros, on 17 April 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Merrid, on 16 April 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

WTF is this shit?

Quote

C21W, Merrid is suspected of the maltreatment of an entertainer. The first player to target Merrid with a guard, find, attack, raid, assassination, or theft ability gains 1000 dinari. Merrid can purchase this contract for 1000 dinari.

I don't even HAVE an entertainer. Can people just make up any shit they want in the wording of their contract?

If I had to guess I think that entertainer is suppose to be a clue as to whom was asking for the contract. But that is just a guess.

Possibly related to the Festival of Masks mentioned in previous scenes? That's my only guess really.

That was my thinking also.

[Omtose]

Atrahal, on 17 April 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Also, TODAY ALONE, the faction, titles, and last night action of myself, Omtose, and Merrid were all each sold 3 times. Just today. That is a lot of cash and a lot of info, you greedy bastards.

Anthras, on 17 April 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Someone just sold yours for free, if you look at the last contract.

Yeah, I found the contracts funny at first, but now that my name is among them - it is profoundly irritating. And they can do it again three times the next day! And the next. Fuckers.

And someone really wanted people to know who Atrahal is. That's...interesting.

[Atrahal]

Omtose, on 17 April 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 17 April 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Also, TODAY ALONE, the faction, titles, and last night action of myself, Omtose, and Merrid were all each sold 3 times. Just today. That is a lot of cash and a lot of info, you greedy bastards.

Anthras, on 17 April 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Someone just sold yours for free, if you look at the last contract.

Yeah, I found the contracts funny at first, but now that my name is among them - it is profoundly irritating. And they can do it again three times the next day! And the next. Fuckers.

And someone really wanted people to know who Atrahal is. That's...interesting.

Yeah...the whole information market has really gotten out of hand in my opinion, especially considering the secondary contract that rewarded the entire fee back for completing the first one. Omtose, you said "again three times the next day" - were you just referring to circumstances or actual rules? There's not a limit on how many contracts you can list in a day, is there? Because actually, I find this to be a flaw in the Bazaar; because information is not a material good and has no "physical" representation or consumption in the game, the Finders could theoretically continually post double-contracts - one for the sale of the info, one refunding the fee for completing the first contract - over...and over...and over... Essentially they could reveal their find on thread but without having to reveal that they are the Finder. What's to stop them from listing someone's information for free until people stop "buying" it - or until everyone has? This is really dangerous because we don't know who's buying OR selling in this scenario, so I think it breaks the system in a fundamental way, since it's not goods that are being exchanged and used, or money, but just information [insert relevant comment about digital copyright legislation].

And yeah, I guess someone must have been really excited to go as far as to sell my information for free. I think that's a first this game. I have been sold for nothing. Alas, woe is me.

[Anthras]

I've made my feelings on the information market clear. I'll get a bit more specific before I go to bed.


I don't have a problem with selling your services.

The idea of offering assassination, heals, votes, etc for cash is good for me. Maybe this is because it hasn't gotten out of hand. My theory is that a price should be set for services, so the people who can kill don't just put an offer up for whatever it costs to use their killing ability, and they can run around killing people for free, basically. Trading cash for a kill is awesome, as long as the price is high to make it a hard decision to go through with. Same with heals and to a lesser extent votes (we haven't seen this yet).

Another point is that those are all one off actions. One per cycle. I would have no problem if the finders sold their FINDS, and gave the result to the person who payed, but the way they can list it infinitely to many people is a little slimy and gross to me.

Can't remember where I was going with this... anyway, yeah, that's my thought here. Maybe it's biased because I'm not the one making cash off of it, we'll see in SH.

[Barghast]

Anthras, on 17 April 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

I've made my feelings on the information market clear. I'll get a bit more specific before I go to bed.


I don't have a problem with selling your services.

The idea of offering assassination, heals, votes, etc for cash is good for me. Maybe this is because it hasn't gotten out of hand. My theory is that a price should be set for services, so the people who can kill don't just put an offer up for whatever it costs to use their killing ability, and they can run around killing people for free, basically. Trading cash for a kill is awesome, as long as the price is high to make it a hard decision to go through with. Same with heals and to a lesser extent votes (we haven't seen this yet).

Another point is that those are all one off actions. One per cycle. I would have no problem if the finders sold their FINDS, and gave the result to the person who payed, but the way they can list it infinitely to many people is a little slimy and gross to me.

Can't remember where I was going with this... anyway, yeah, that's my thought here. Maybe it's biased because I'm not the one making cash off of it, we'll see in SH.

Honestly, even though my info isn't up for sale, I agree. Knowing that a good portion of players knew a good portion of other players' alignments would not make me feel good at all. Though I have to give it to the finders for finding (haha a good pun) a way to reveal the alignment of someone anonymously.

[Omtose]

Atrahal, on 17 April 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Omtose, on 17 April 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 17 April 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Also, TODAY ALONE, the faction, titles, and last night action of myself, Omtose, and Merrid were all each sold 3 times. Just today. That is a lot of cash and a lot of info, you greedy bastards.

Anthras, on 17 April 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Someone just sold yours for free, if you look at the last contract.

Yeah, I found the contracts funny at first, but now that my name is among them - it is profoundly irritating. And they can do it again three times the next day! And the next. Fuckers.

And someone really wanted people to know who Atrahal is. That's...interesting.

Yeah...the whole information market has really gotten out of hand in my opinion, especially considering the secondary contract that rewarded the entire fee back for completing the first one. Omtose, you said "again three times the next day" - were you just referring to circumstances or actual rules? There's not a limit on how many contracts you can list in a day, is there? Because actually, I find this to be a flaw in the Bazaar; because information is not a material good and has no "physical" representation or consumption in the game, the Finders could theoretically continually post double-contracts - one for the sale of the info, one refunding the fee for completing the first contract - over...and over...and over... Essentially they could reveal their find on thread but without having to reveal that they are the Finder. What's to stop them from listing someone's information for free until people stop "buying" it - or until everyone has? This is really dangerous because we don't know who's buying OR selling in this scenario, so I think it breaks the system in a fundamental way, since it's not goods that are being exchanged and used, or money, but just information [insert relevant comment about digital copyright legislation].

And yeah, I guess someone must have been really excited to go as far as to sell my information for free. I think that's a first this game. I have been sold for nothing. Alas, woe is me.

I was referring to actual rules. tapper said that the same contract cannot be posted more than three times in one day, regardless of who posted or how much money was involved.

This post has been edited by Omtose: 17 April 2012 - 01:49 AM

[Merrid]

I didn:t buy the jewelry. And yeah, the info and contracts out on people, interesting ideas to a point, but (obviously as a target) I`m not totally in approval. Especially that entertainer nonsense, since I have no such person working for me.

That Barghast post rubs me the wrong way, like hes trying to blend in by being appalled while hes actually the one selling info. My gut is shit though, so I dont vote on gut anymore.

[Tiamatha]

I'm back and after a shit day where I got dumped on for about an hour the good news is that I'm likely to be done with the shit work tomorrow or early Wednesday. The bad news is that I have minimal time to devote to mafia until I am done. I'm actually disapointed because there is some infomation that I really would love to look at. The whole discussion regarding the scenes makes me want to spend time going back and analysing them. I knew this was a Tapper game and I should have known that there were more things going on in the background that just the HoA versus what's being called the alliance.

As for the other big topic, I'm actually not a big fan of the information being divulged on the market as well. If I recall Merrid's has been sold 9 times so most of the players should know who he is at this point. I also think there are more than one finder out there. If people have noticed the contracts for Korlot's info just reveals faction while the contracts for the others give a lot more information. They are also worded differently. I think it's enough evidence that there are more than one player that is selling their info. But what I'm finding interesting is the fact that noone is acting on this information at least not on thread. Take Merrid for instance, I'm thinking the only reason that he isn't lynched is that because either most of the people that know him are either in the alliance which lends credibility to those that mentioned that the teams are not as even as I first thought i.e. HoA 6 players the alliance 6 players and mystery faction. To something like 3-4 HoA 2-3 CoV, 2-3 Beggars, 2-3 Nepath and 1-3 mystery factions/individuals. Or that people don't want too obvious a connection between a player and themselves one way or another that too many people know which side of the eqation they are on. The information dump seems to be dragging the game down.

This doesn't even cover the case of Alkend being part of a mystery alliance that Atrahal (I think) is accusing him of being.... , like I said. Not enough time.

[Alkend]

Wait, I'm a part of a mystery allience now? Awesome!

Oh well, at this rate you won't have to lynch me to find out that I'm not, given that I'll possibly be the target of a find today/tonight or whatever.

[Path-Shaper]

1 note.

The reward-contracts have really gone apeshit. It was never my intention that rewards would compensate the entire contract and they open up yet more infinite money schemes.

The reason why I have allowed them so far (although it really has gone lopsided in the past 24 hours) is the following:

It allows to offer X goods with a discount if they're all sold to one player, guaranteeing the person who offered them a certain amount of cash, like these:

C24J, The first player to buy G39T will be compensated 500 dinari.
C27J, The player who purchases I7J will receive 500 dinari in compensation.
C23J, The first player to buy all of G12S will be compensated 500 dinari.
C29R, The player who buys all of G52E will be compensated 2500 dinari.

I also think that they're a relatively fair way of price negotiation between buyer and seller, allowing the seller to adjust prices.

The issue there is that i don't want to change the game halfway through by making clauses and subclauses of what can be done and can't be done. Unfortunately, there's going to be a need for it as the contracts below go against what I intended to be the spirit of the market.

C5I, The first player to put information about the faction of a player, that wasn't available yesterday, for sale gains 1000 dinari
C7Z, The first player to put information about the faction of a player, that wasn't available yesterday, for sale at 2000 dinari gains 1000 dinari
C29F The first person who purchases contract C20L will be reinbused 1000 dinari

At the same time, I don't want to curtail player creativity too much. Nor do I want to apply a fix that breaks the market when I think the bazaar has so far been quite a success. However, as this is still a test (of the economy) before I run 1.0, I also want to see what works and what doesn't, and I'm mightily curious what loophole will be found next .

So here's going to be your fix, and do your utmost to break it using lawyer-tech and munchkinning .


FROM NOW ON, NO CONTRACT MAY REFER TO ANOTHER CONTRACT.
CONTRACTS THAT REFER TO OTHER MARKET TRANSACTIONS, MAY ONLY REFER TO GOODS, TITLE & ITEM TRANSACTIONS.

EDIT: It is likely that in 1.0, I will institute a ruling on contracts that basically curtails them only to offer an ability or vote of the player putting the contract up in return for X dinari, or asking for the use of a certain ability of vote in return for cash.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 17 April 2012 - 07:53 AM

[Omtose]

Looks like the finders are getting nerfed for 1.0

[Kessobahn]

Galayn Lord, on 16 April 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Kessobahn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

To me this has been a very confusing game so far but enjoyable. Who's around? Atrahal's case ^ is very interesting, it is well thought out and makes a lot of sense. The only thing i'd say is that if we think he is not HoA then another target may be better for today, when the number of players is decreased then we could look at lynching Alkend but I personally find Korlat the better candidate of coming up HoA.

Mind to explain why? Korlat was accused of having the ability to kill and being a warrior in the last case against her.
Alkend has been accused of potentially being a mystery role, where we know nothing of the winning condition, but it seems you would favor a HoA lynch over removing someone like that.
It sounds a lot like you are knowing Alkend and don't want him lynched because he is on your team.

It is a mixture of a few things. The first being that he keeps mentioning that he is poor or does not have enough money yet states that he will buy a few things if people put them up at good prices. Being open and honest about what he wants from the bazaar on thread. I think he is lying about both of these things, that 1 he does have a lot of money and 2 he is trying too hard to be a role that he isn't. Mainly it was gut that was pointing to Korlat being HoA but that was from his posts and play so far so more of an educated gut guess.

[Path-Shaper]

Omtose, on 17 April 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Looks like the finders are getting nerfed for 1.0

or part of their abilities will be to offer special contracts.

[Kessobahn]

Korlat, on 16 April 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Okaros, on 16 April 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Barghast, on 15 April 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Okaros, on 15 April 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Kessobahn, on 15 April 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

To me this has been a very confusing game so far but enjoyable. Who's around? Atrahal's case ^ is very interesting, it is well thought out and makes a lot of sense. The only thing i'd say is that if we think he is not HoA then another target may be better for today, when the number of players is decreased then we could look at lynching Alkend but I personally find Korlat the better candidate of coming up HoA.

I am around for a bit. I think that Atrahal's case is very interesting. And since it focuses on someone who could be either a part or either faction or a totally separate party. While I am still against lynching. Their is one for sure revealed HoA player and that is Merrid. To just follow your line of thinking kesso.

What makes Merrid a "for sure revealed HoA player"? I don't understand that as there is nothing blatantly stating Merrid is HoA, which you could only know if you purchased the contract that told you his role/alignment/titles. Did you buy that contract?

No I did not buy his information. But I did read his post

Merrid, on 13 April 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Fuck anyone getting money for this info. I am a merchant and i did not take a night action.

If you wsnt to pay for my faction go ahead. Not going to announce that.

Now it could just be me but I don't think that the nepeth, cult or the thieves have merchants. But you know who does have Merchants someone who is a member of the HoA. So really I guess I just put two and two together and came up with 4. Sorry to have implied that I knew his exact role and alignment. I don't. But I do feel pretty secure in reading his post and saying that he is HoA. I mean who wouldn't. I guess only someone who doesn't bother to read up on the thread.

I don't understand. Why are you taking his reveal at face value with no questioning of it? You should NEVER accept a reveal without at least considering the possibility that whoever gave it might be lying. Merrid was reacting to the fact that his information was posted on the market - do you think he would have admitted it if he was the assassin? I doubt it somehow. Merchant is the 'safe' reveal option in this game, because unlike say 'finder' or 'warrior' it implies no belligerence towards the other players. So as far as I'm concerned that's what Merrid would say no matter what his role actually is. To base assumptions like that on what he has claimed outright is foolish, IMO. And certainly he is not 'confirmed HoA', as you claim.

I'm very surprised at logic like this - I can't believe someone would come to this conclusion if they were thinking rationally and logically. So I can only assume that something else is going on here. Maybe Okaros bought the info on Merrid and therefore knows his alignment for certain? That would make the original statement about Merrid being 'confirmed HoA' a slip-up and this an attempt to cover his tracks...would make some sense.

You see, Korlat has been open about things on thread but says here that we cannot take someone at face value. Merrid could easily have slipped up. Alkend could have too. Whereas I think Korlat is trying harder than most NOT to slip up and for that I want to know his reasons.

[Kessobahn]

15 Jewellery sold!! WTF someone creating earrings for Pat Butcher???

[Kessobahn]

[attachment=20359:Earrings.jpg]

[Korlat]

Kessobahn, on 17 April 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

You see, Korlat has been open about things on thread but says here that we cannot take someone at face value. Merrid could easily have slipped up. Alkend could have too. Whereas I think Korlat is trying harder than most NOT to slip up and for that I want to know his reasons.

Interesting you should say that. I'm kind of surprised by it - if anything I've been playing this game faster and looser than I normally would. As you say, I've been open about things that a lot of players have not been. It has meant that I've had more votes placed on me so far than any other player, so it's hardly as though I'm being cautious.

I tend to draw a distinction between the sort of stuff Merrid has been saying and the sort of stuff I've been saying. I have not been attempting to reveal anything about my role or faction (apart from the bit where I said I was not a warrior). Anything people have decided to attribute to me with regards to my role/faction has been done through implication (well, apart from the times when my info has been for sale on the market, I suppose). You could say that I've 'slipped up' into giving that stuff away, I suppose. And I guess it's entirely possible that the whole mess of conclusions people have drawn from what I have said were wrong...just saying . Merrid, on the other hand, revealed his role intentionally. When a player acts with intent like that, that is when you have to question whether he's telling the truth.

[Kessobahn]

No more jewellery for sale...

[attachment=20361:Ear2.jpg]

[Kessobahn]

but there may be more tomorrow....

[attachment=20362:ear3.jpg]

[Kessobahn]

and maybe even the next day...

[attachment=20363:ear4.jpg]