[Korabas]

JLV, on 18 April 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Check your inbox on your main account, we had the Title discussion already.

oki dokie

[ansible]

Khellendros, on 18 April 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 18 April 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

All in all, major props to Tap for creating a great game and modding it unbelievably well; he made changes to my role on the fly when I realized that part of it was worthless, and I'm sure he was up late and early to respond so quickly. I love the writing, the scenes, the setup, and the diverse abilities of the roles.

I second the congratulations to Tapper.


Personally, I don't think it was up to the thieves to get the titles (except maybe you). The mages who were on your side were incredibly powerful, and I think they needed to have unleashed those powers sooner. Also, you were unlucky in that the other powerful member on your side, Nepeth Shin, was unable to play as much as was needed. You Thieves did seem to need more luck to benefit from your roles though.


In a way, what happened in this game also happened in the previous one - the people who struck first (Nepeth in that one, HoA in this one) got a significant advantage and were able to win comfortably.

Except, last game it was 4 Nepeth vs. 10 [everyone other faction]; in this game it was 5 HoA vs. 8 VBN, so totally different odds and balance. Also, with market exploits and abilities, HoA players were making over 10K denari per day, sometimes MORE, while at least half of the opposing faction were not capable of ever making enough money to buy a title. The game was obviously unbalanced in favor of the HoA, especially with Tapper's warning about lynching scaring everyone from voting - first Mafia game without a lynch? Lynching would have improved the odds of VBN winning immensely, since if a player had a title when they were lynched it would be returned to the market. So, I don't think you can really make an argument that it was the same as last game. Nepeth barely won last game anyway; HoA rolled to victory without any opposition.

And I was definitely unlucky in terms of night actions - both my targets and being targeted. It prevented me from doing almost anything related to actual production...which just so happened to be the only VCs of the game. (Or eliminate the other side, of course, which I could only do through voting...and we all know how that turned out)

[Path-Shaper]

ansible, on 18 April 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 18 April 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 18 April 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

All in all, major props to Tap for creating a great game and modding it unbelievably well; he made changes to my role on the fly when I realized that part of it was worthless, and I'm sure he was up late and early to respond so quickly. I love the writing, the scenes, the setup, and the diverse abilities of the roles.

I second the congratulations to Tapper.


Personally, I don't think it was up to the thieves to get the titles (except maybe you). The mages who were on your side were incredibly powerful, and I think they needed to have unleashed those powers sooner. Also, you were unlucky in that the other powerful member on your side, Nepeth Shin, was unable to play as much as was needed. You Thieves did seem to need more luck to benefit from your roles though.


In a way, what happened in this game also happened in the previous one - the people who struck first (Nepeth in that one, HoA in this one) got a significant advantage and were able to win comfortably.

Except, last game it was 4 Nepeth vs. 10 [everyone other faction]; in this game it was 5 HoA vs. 8 VBN, so totally different odds and balance. Also, with market exploits and abilities, HoA players were making over 10K denari per day, sometimes MORE, while at least half of the opposing faction were not capable of ever making enough money to buy a title. The game was obviously unbalanced in favor of the HoA, especially with Tapper's warning about lynching scaring everyone from voting - first Mafia game without a lynch? Lynching would have improved the odds of VBN winning immensely, since if a player had a title when they were lynched it would be returned to the market. So, I don't think you can really make an argument that it was the same as last game. Nepeth barely won last game anyway; HoA rolled to victory without any opposition.

And I was definitely unlucky in terms of night actions - both my targets and being targeted. It prevented me from doing almost anything related to actual production...which just so happened to be the only VCs of the game. (Or eliminate the other side, of course, which I could only do through voting...and we all know how that turned out)

The odds were supposed to be 9 vs 5, which is almost a 2:1 split - albeit in the knowledge that the HoA was much, much bigger on the money gains and of course individual money mattered here. As said, I hadn't expected the bazaar to take the direction it did, and it hurt the alliance for it slowed down the tempo in which the djinn came out and in which the Thieves did their thing. With a good find and a resulting lynch on a HoA player, I think the alliance would have been back in the game, but it didn't materialize.

[ansible]

Yep, I agree almost completely. A good lynch could have turned the whole game around.

[Vengeance]

I just could not find the little nasty people that I needed to find. Until it was to late. I was so hoping to punish people by making them post in pics for a day or so. Unfortunately that never happened...

[twelve]

Omtose, on 18 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

twelve, on 18 April 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Kessobahn, on 18 April 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Surroundings: 6 Metal, 4 Gemstones, 2 Magic, 1000 dinari
Well: 3 water/ cycle
Storage: 3 metal, 1 Paper, 1 Slave, 6 Gemstones, 5 water, 3 magic
Treasury:42000
Courtyard: empty

my storage...

I'd have had a title plus 17000 minimum by the end of the day, i could've converted those gemstones into jewellery knowing that sold.

Damn Vengy guarding me last night, else I would have hooked up the the Nepath prince and offered him some insider trading options. Though you guys had already won by then.

Each day I used my Djinn to learn info regarding a player. Giving me three more contracts each day to sell. When I sell a contract I get the contract amount and because I had 2 Dada Dream Dancers I get 4000 dinari each time my contract was purchased. That was why I offered to basically give my info out for free. I still got 4K each time. I was at the point where I was making 55K each day and the longer the game went on the more money i could make.

Much of your money came from me then. I bought up all but 1 of the contracts you put out on me

That was what I was hoping for. the people I was offering up players on a silver platter for a cheap enough price would keep buying the information so I can keep raking in the cash. But if I was ever able to talk to Merrid i was going to time the contracts so he would be the one to buy them so he could get the information and then know who to target for attacks. Then he would offer up goods on the market that I need so I can reinburse him for his cost to buying my contracts with some profit for him built in. I figure that would be a win win but the market moved too fast to get that strategy up and running.

[twelve]

Omtose, on 18 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

As for what I was going to do today if the game had carried on.

- I didn't have time or money earlier to spend on upgrades, so I was focusing on that. I got the materials together to buy a grain farm, as I needed grain to upgrade and no one ever bloody sold it!

- I bought the info on Korabas, who as it turned out was in my faction - so I would have established a lover link with them, and subsequently one with them and Korlat.


By the way, twelve, so you were selling information about both sides. Naughty naughty

Hey it was the best way for me to make money. Who would have thought that I would have targeted both the Prince and the Mehesh within the first two nights. The only other way for me to make money was to change sandstone and magic at 500 dinari each using my quack and stonecutter workshops. That was way too slow a process for me. It turned out okay. Everyone was afraid to lynch those that information was so readily available in fear of giving away their faction.

What lover link are you talking about. I haven't read through all the roles and abilities yet so if it was your role ability sorry for my lazyiness.

[twelve]

Khellendros, on 18 April 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Having looked at all the roles, I'd say the most difficult to get ahead with were probably Threefinger and Kumpal. I don't know how KL and Azathmaster decided to play them, but I would have ignored trying to gain the titles and let my other faction members (hopefully) get them, whilst concentrating on upgrades.

In the previous game, I was an Orphan of the Desert - an assassin, but with absolutely nothing and no way of gaining anything. I had no resources, no money, just one rusty dagger - which I had resolved to sell on the market anyway So becoming a trader in the House of Luxury was a much more comfortable role compared to that, but I would still say, aside from the two mentioned above, it was one of the most difficult to gain a title with (certainly, I had to sacrifice personal upgrades to do it, the only thing I managed to build was another well).

Yeah, I forsake easy to do upgrades as well. I only upgraded my leadership. But leadership was the key to my strategy as I needed it to recruit two of my Dream dancers. Each Dancer gave me 2K for every contract that was purchased. I figured that recruits give added protection from attacks so they also helped keep me alive so it was a smart investment. After I bought my title I was thinking of doing upgrades but the game ended before I made a decision on, do I pursue personal upgrades or try to extend the game by offering monetary reward to players to lynch Omtose.

I do say that with all the information that I put up on the market I'm disapointed none of it was used to specificly target players of the opposite faction for attacks or assasinations.

[twelve]

Khellendros, on 18 April 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

I absolutely love all the roles Tapper, it's amazing how much variety you've got in there and yet still keeping balanced. At first glance, the mages look ridiculously over-powered, but when you consider how many resources they need to use those abilities, then that doesn't seem the case.

The one thing I would say is the extra money thing for a couple of players seemed a little over the top and open to abuse (I'm looking at you, ST and twelve!). 3000 and 4000 dinari each time....I wouldn't get rid of that entirely, but maybe smaller amounts?



Finally - Venge as the Dreadfather....could anything be more fitting?

In the defense for my role I only received 2K for each Dancer recruit but to recruit a Dada Dream Dancer I needed 2 dancers, 2 Jewelry and 1 essence for just one of these. Only the Essence I was able to produce myself and a lot of that went to my find abilites. Having the Transmuter workshop helped immensly else I wouldn't have been able to get the grain for my leadership upgrade. But it still took me a full 3 game days to really get my role up and running. And it took an almost perfect set of circumstances for me to earn enough money and the right amount of goods being offered on the market at the right price to get me up and running by day 3. If it wasn't for all that Jewelry being sold on the market I would have been a non facctor this game. Or if I was attacked and my Dancers were killed then again I would have been a non factor.

I'm thinking either Korlats ability or mine by themselves would have been fine strenght wise but with both of them in the game together probably wasn't a great idea.

[twelve]

Well the laptop battery is about to die.

One last thought before I go. I find the fact that ST and I had such a simbiotic relationship in this game while the one in Dip is so not.

Speaking of Dip, now that Tappers game is over we could use a sub for Morgoth. I'm no where near him so I'm not setting up anyone else up for a backsab if you are worried.

[Shinrei]

Actually, looking back over my stores and the how fast the game ended, I don't feel so bad anymore. I would have had to have sold just about everything I had, including my abilities, and built nothing to have had any chance at a title. Given my role description, which says "Builder" about a dozen times, that just didn't seem like how my character was supposed to work.

[Sir Thursday]

Right, I've finally got time to sit down and write up my thoughts on the game. I have to say, this is probably the game of Mafia I have spent (wasted? ) the most time on - the bazaar aspect is compelling and adds an extra dimension to the gameplay that I really appreciated. I love the intricacy of the backstory that Tapper has built and the depth and variety of the roles and objects in the game. I found myself being sucked into spending more time on the game than I really should have - a testament to the quality of preparation Tapper must have put into the game to make it fun! Having said all that, one of the other things I find enjoyable about such games is the postmortem afterwards in which the game design concepts can be evaluated. Here are some of the observations I had about what didn't really work so well and a few suggestions about how things could be tweaked to improve things. As always, I must stress that these criticisms do not in any way signal that I didn't really enjoy this game.

As I said in some of my PMs, I feel like there are some fairly gaping loopholes that will allow players to manipulate the bazaar system to get them money too easily. The principle one is that any ability that gains you extra money when you do something bazaar-related is instantly abusable the moment you allow two players of the same faction to talk to each other off thread. Player A can sell what he needs to sell to get a bonus, and Player B can buy the goods and then sell them back at the same price. No goods have changed hands but money has magically been created. The same principle applies to those contract-related bonuses twelve and myself had. Once I had my lover bond up with Khell, we could basically have generated infinite money by him posting contracts alternatively asking for people to either buy or sell certain goods. You could try to put limits on this by preventing players with a lover bond from selling to each other, but all they'd have to do is come up with a plan for when the link is broken and you're screwed (that's basically what Khell and I did to net me a title so quickly on Day 4...with a little help from twelve's contracts, of course). There isn't really a good solution that I can see apart from removing one of the two factors that make it possible - so either no lover conversations or no bazaar bonuses.

Unfortunately, if you remove bazaar bonuses you need an alternative method of injecting money into the game - you are producing new goods every day, so you need to produce new money to match it or you end up with serious deflation in the system (I would argue that we did see a bit of this - I certainly felt like I needed to constantly lower my expectations of what a good would sell for in order to make a sale. I suspect this was compounded by the fact that some people were saving a large proportion of their income in order to get a title, effectively taking that money out of circulation). I would suggest having more of the money be produced through buildings (I think I saw the "Commercial Enterprises" building about the place, which maybe fits the bill), or having more buildings that can convert goods into money (so that it might make sense to, for example, convert your Sandstone into Marble so that you can turn it into more money than you would otherwise). This would make Workshops more valuable, since there would be a real reason for using them other than just to create the stuff you need. I definitely felt like it wasn't worth converting my goods and then selling them because in such a small marketplace there was no guarantee of finding a buyer. So I only did conversion if I needed the result for something else (like an upgrade or filling a contract).

I notice that many others were not in favour of the information economy that sprouted up. I think you have to place pretty strict limits on that sort of thing, because unlike with goods, after you sell information you still possess the information and can sell it again. Perhaps only allow the results of a find to be sold once? You would probably also have to implement a rule that disallows you from buying information you already know, or you could quite easily just buy your own information like Omtose did to prevent others from knowing about you. Or maybe you could just make it more expensive to buy redundant info to discourage it.

Either way, I would strongly support the idea Tapper floated about having a limited set of worded contracts you could choose from. This prevents people from posting illegal contracts and allows a bit more control over the shape of the marketplace. Being able to predict how that will play out is a key facet in ensuring the game is balanced, which going forwards is what we all want from our games. It also greatly reduces the chances of infinite loops developing if you can control the parameters under which the game is played better.

What a game like this definitely needs is a much more extensive and complete detailing of the rules at the start of the game. I felt as though what was there only covered a small portion of the game's rules and I had to figure out the rest by asking PS. This disadvantages players who are not naturally inclined to ask many questions. All the player lists and stuff need to be freely available in the OP instead of hidden away in a different game thread. The rules on what is and what isn't a legal contract need to be clearly defined (I remember you said somewhere that you didn't want a post full of legalese, but if ever there was a game that needed one, it was this one). A guiding statement about the goals of the individual factions would probably have been very useful, both for the players and for the purposes of game balance (as we have seen, players do tend to follow the initial pointers they are given to a certain extent, especially in a game like this). I thought the amount of detail you put into the Role PMs was fantastic, I just would have liked there to have been the same level in the Opening posts. I understand that this was very much a beta test, and I'm sure when ToD 1.0 rolls around it will be more complete.

I'm not sure that not having at least one faction whose victory conditions require a majority is the way to go in the long run (if you'll excuse the double negative). In this game, it didn't feel like there was sufficient pressure to use the 'Mafia' part of the game, and I think it's important to try and make sure that that isn't lost among all of the additional stuff. Removing the incentive to lynch in order to win meant that as soon as it was obvious that the game was going to be decided by titles, the game thread became fairly unimportant to the majority of the players.

Finally, I would suggest that you try to enlist a co-mod (or co-mods) with a lot of time on their hands to get as much game coverage as you possibly can. I believe it is especially important to have full mod coverage in high TMDI games - in a game as complicated as this, there will always be a lot of rules that need clarification and enforcement. In addition, if you have bought something that requires information to be received from PS, it is often something you want to receive as soon as possible. That might be just because this particular game was more addictive than most and I wanted my information fix faster though . I don't know if you had a spreadsheet to keep track of everything, but it seems like it would have come in handy and allowed some double checking of the maths. I know there were a few times (notably during my contract binge with Khell on Day 3) where I got the treasury maths wrong and had to go back with a fine tooth comb to make sure everything was correct.

ST

[King Lear]

twelve, on 18 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Well the laptop battery is about to die.

One last thought before I go. I find the fact that ST and I had such a simbiotic relationship in this game while the one in Dip is so not.

Speaking of Dip, now that Tappers game is over we could use a sub for Morgoth. I'm no where near him so I'm not setting up anyone else up for a backsab if you are worried.

I will have my revenge one day

[Tattersail_]

Vengeance, on 18 April 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

I just could not find the little nasty people that I needed to find. Until it was to late. I was so hoping to punish people by making them post in pics for a day or so. Unfortunately that never happened...

This day I would of had to IF we didn't win ;-)

[D'rek]

Sir Thursday, on 19 April 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

As I said in some of my PMs, I feel like there are some fairly gaping loopholes that will allow players to manipulate the bazaar system to get them money too easily. The principle one is that any ability that gains you extra money when you do something bazaar-related is instantly abusable the moment you allow two players of the same faction to talk to each other off thread. Player A can sell what he needs to sell to get a bonus, and Player B can buy the goods and then sell them back at the same price. No goods have changed hands but money has magically been created. The same principle applies to those contract-related bonuses twelve and myself had. Once I had my lover bond up with Khell, we could basically have generated infinite money by him posting contracts alternatively asking for people to either buy or sell certain goods. You could try to put limits on this by preventing players with a lover bond from selling to each other, but all they'd have to do is come up with a plan for when the link is broken and you're screwed (that's basically what Khell and I did to net me a title so quickly on Day 4...with a little help from twelve's contracts, of course). There isn't really a good solution that I can see apart from removing one of the two factors that make it possible - so either no lover conversations or no bazaar bonuses.

Maybe getting rid of any abilities that generate denari from bazaar trading, but still allowing some that do so for contracts, but also turning contracts back into a mod-controlled, posted-at-daybreak system (and leave the resource trading as it was here) would work?

I'm surprised no one's been calling in the after-game comments for less confusing role PMs - when the game first started I thought there'd be a lot of confusion-induced questions and/or complaints on them. The main thing I was going to suggest considering in regards to them was breaking up the initial role PM into "You currently have these resources/buildings/items/abilities/etc" and "You can build these/produce these/upgrade this/etc"

[Khellendros]

D, on 19 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Sir Thursday, on 19 April 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

As I said in some of my PMs, I feel like there are some fairly gaping loopholes that will allow players to manipulate the bazaar system to get them money too easily. The principle one is that any ability that gains you extra money when you do something bazaar-related is instantly abusable the moment you allow two players of the same faction to talk to each other off thread. Player A can sell what he needs to sell to get a bonus, and Player B can buy the goods and then sell them back at the same price. No goods have changed hands but money has magically been created. The same principle applies to those contract-related bonuses twelve and myself had. Once I had my lover bond up with Khell, we could basically have generated infinite money by him posting contracts alternatively asking for people to either buy or sell certain goods. You could try to put limits on this by preventing players with a lover bond from selling to each other, but all they'd have to do is come up with a plan for when the link is broken and you're screwed (that's basically what Khell and I did to net me a title so quickly on Day 4...with a little help from twelve's contracts, of course). There isn't really a good solution that I can see apart from removing one of the two factors that make it possible - so either no lover conversations or no bazaar bonuses.

Maybe getting rid of any abilities that generate denari from bazaar trading, but still allowing some that do so for contracts, but also turning contracts back into a mod-controlled, posted-at-daybreak system (and leave the resource trading as it was here) would work?

I'm surprised no one's been calling in the after-game comments for less confusing role PMs - when the game first started I thought there'd be a lot of confusion-induced questions and/or complaints on them. The main thing I was going to suggest considering in regards to them was breaking up the initial role PM into "You currently have these resources/buildings/items/abilities/etc" and "You can build these/produce these/upgrade this/etc"

I don't know about others, but I didn't find my role PM confusing at all. That is, I did ask Tapper a few questions about how certain things functioned, but it was more confirming what I already suspected rather than being totally confused by something.

[Sir Thursday]

D, on 19 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Sir Thursday, on 19 April 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

As I said in some of my PMs, I feel like there are some fairly gaping loopholes that will allow players to manipulate the bazaar system to get them money too easily. The principle one is that any ability that gains you extra money when you do something bazaar-related is instantly abusable the moment you allow two players of the same faction to talk to each other off thread. Player A can sell what he needs to sell to get a bonus, and Player B can buy the goods and then sell them back at the same price. No goods have changed hands but money has magically been created. The same principle applies to those contract-related bonuses twelve and myself had. Once I had my lover bond up with Khell, we could basically have generated infinite money by him posting contracts alternatively asking for people to either buy or sell certain goods. You could try to put limits on this by preventing players with a lover bond from selling to each other, but all they'd have to do is come up with a plan for when the link is broken and you're screwed (that's basically what Khell and I did to net me a title so quickly on Day 4...with a little help from twelve's contracts, of course). There isn't really a good solution that I can see apart from removing one of the two factors that make it possible - so either no lover conversations or no bazaar bonuses.

Maybe getting rid of any abilities that generate denari from bazaar trading, but still allowing some that do so for contracts, but also turning contracts back into a mod-controlled, posted-at-daybreak system (and leave the resource trading as it was here) would work?

I'm surprised no one's been calling in the after-game comments for less confusing role PMs - when the game first started I thought there'd be a lot of confusion-induced questions and/or complaints on them. The main thing I was going to suggest considering in regards to them was breaking up the initial role PM into "You currently have these resources/buildings/items/abilities/etc" and "You can build these/produce these/upgrade this/etc"

I thought the role PM was clear enough in terms of the general structure of players abilities. I did feel that the text that described the abilities could have been a little more precise, but as Khell said, it was more confirming how I thought the role worked was correct rather than being hopelessly confused.

ST

[Tapper]

D, on 19 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Sir Thursday, on 19 April 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

As I said in some of my PMs, I feel like there are some fairly gaping loopholes that will allow players to manipulate the bazaar system to get them money too easily. The principle one is that any ability that gains you extra money when you do something bazaar-related is instantly abusable the moment you allow two players of the same faction to talk to each other off thread. Player A can sell what he needs to sell to get a bonus, and Player B can buy the goods and then sell them back at the same price. No goods have changed hands but money has magically been created. The same principle applies to those contract-related bonuses twelve and myself had. Once I had my lover bond up with Khell, we could basically have generated infinite money by him posting contracts alternatively asking for people to either buy or sell certain goods. You could try to put limits on this by preventing players with a lover bond from selling to each other, but all they'd have to do is come up with a plan for when the link is broken and you're screwed (that's basically what Khell and I did to net me a title so quickly on Day 4...with a little help from twelve's contracts, of course). There isn't really a good solution that I can see apart from removing one of the two factors that make it possible - so either no lover conversations or no bazaar bonuses.

Maybe getting rid of any abilities that generate denari from bazaar trading, but still allowing some that do so for contracts, but also turning contracts back into a mod-controlled, posted-at-daybreak system (and leave the resource trading as it was here) would work?

I'm surprised no one's been calling in the after-game comments for less confusing role PMs - when the game first started I thought there'd be a lot of confusion-induced questions and/or complaints on them. The main thing I was going to suggest considering in regards to them was breaking up the initial role PM into "You currently have these resources/buildings/items/abilities/etc" and "You can build these/produce these/upgrade this/etc"

My experience from general questions was definately what Khell and ST describe, although I do think that with a bit more explanation and/or a clearer lay-out and better description of processes, others might have realized a bit more of the potential of the role - although time is of the essence, especially with the bazaar to play with.

Part of the problem with 0.66 was that about half the characters were designed before I overhauled the system and went to a building structure to allow player expansion of their own produced resources, which basically adds a whole new dimension to the game. So some roles saw 3-5 revisions while others had only 1 or none (Daughter of Mishap and Prince Tserish were both fully designed after the economic overhaul, hence their building related abilities), Huassan ibn Qolat and the various mages weren't, apart from the Dreadfather, and most Thieves were halfway finished, apart from Threefinger.

For 1.0 and further on, I plan on delivering a "Master" thread containing all the rule stuff that comes with PMs, buildings et cetera before I even start finetuning the roles. It allows players to plan their strategy more or less from the start and may take a bit of the surprise away, but it will also allow for a more strategic game in which the boundaries are known and it is just about filling them in to the best of your abilities and the added effects added by your role.

[twelve]

So when are you going to post the soiler heaven stuff on thread. I never got a chance to finish reading through all the roles before JLV took over SH for his zombie game.

[JLV]

I moved the thread to this subforum, its here somewhere