[Cause]

http://killscreendai...-darth-vapaula/

Quote

Now that Commander Shepard is gay, what's next for Bioware? A transgender Darth Vader, clearly. The Florida Family Association, known for its protests of all things queer and friendly to Muslims, has issued a new warning against the "LGBT activists" embedded within Bioware and their new MMO The Old Republic:

LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) activists are demanding that the makers of Star Wars video games add LGBT characters for kids to select as their action figure when playing the games. Previous email alerts with more information on this issue are posted below.

These LGBT activists want children and young teens to be able to choose Star Wars action characters who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. This would mean:

• Children and teens, who never thought anyway but heterosexual, are now given a choice to be lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender in their game player.

• Children and teens, who choose non-social agenda characters, would be forced to deal with lesbian, gay, bi-sexual or transgender characters chosen by other players.

Should BioWare bow to the demands of these LGBT activists by adding such action characters to Star Wars video games they certainly would not create game rules that would allow regular players to prohibit entry into their games by these social agenda characters. That would be discrimination (sarcasm.)

There were no LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) characters in any of the Star Wars movies. So if BioWare, the maker of Star Wars video games, adds LGBT characters for kids to select as their action figure it could be something like Darth RuPaula, a combination of Darth Vader, one of the most popular Star Wars characters, and RuPaul, the renown transgender cross dresser.

Florida Family Association has prepared an email for you to send that urges officials at BioWare’s parent company Electronic Arts and Lucas Films to stop any additions of LGBT content to Star Wars video games.

LGBT activism aside, it might actually be useful to ask how social and political issues like race, gender, and sexuality enter into these sorts of online worlds. Are there more nuanced forms of identity expression than trolls and flame wars when you enter into a society like that created by World of Warcraft and The Old Republic? Until then, you can see the picture of the feared drag villain below. I just hope this makes for an interesting challege week on RuPaul's Drag Race.

[via Florida Family Association]

Whilst everything I know of the Florida Family Association makes me hope that someone beats some sense into them sometime soon I found this article (love the language they use) and the points it raises nonetheless very interesting and thought provoking. If the gay and lesbian population is as large, maybe larger, than ten percent of the population than to my mind that is sufficient audience and reason to have gay characters in video games (Its a miss-portrayal of the world not to). It will likely be a long time before we see an action movie with a gay protagonist but in games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age or MMOs where choice is everywhere having a gay or lesbian romance option seems legit to me. If one in ten players is looking for a gay option it makes sense to put it in their. Besides I myself a straight male have played Mass Effect as a female character and enjoyed romancing a male drell alien (He was awesome; in a strong, silent, meditative kind of way!) and thought nothing of it.

At the same time I see the games i have mentioned have restricted age recommendations of anything from 12-18. At 18 years of age you should be able to understand and deal with any sexual subject matter but at age 12? My parents were never too strict with age ratings and I don't believe it ever really affected me. I think for the most part they are very conservative and over protective. That said despite having watches over a score of jerry springer episodes when i was fifteen and being mostly amused more than anything I do remeber watching one episode which covered all sorts of sexual kink like BDSM, cross dressing, Gay and lesbianism etc and I remember being freaked out (still a little to this day) by what some of these people did (To this day Im glad my parents watch the matrix even though I was not 16 but I feel like that one episdoe of Jerry Springer might have been better saved till I was older). I'm not suggesting a chaste sex scene with your same sex partner like what Mass effect shows is on the same level but does it perhaps allow some parents or interest groups a legitimate concern for introducing these concepts?

I think the issue goes beyond just gay and lesbian characters though some of my thoughts are still convalescing slowly but in the meantime Id thought Id check in with you guys.

This post has been edited by Cause: 25 March 2012 - 06:22 PM

[Use Of Weapons]

Just FYI, the 10% figure is largely a result of small sample size and non-random sampling in a few polls a few decades ago (and in some of those polls, a history of having ever had a homosexual experience counted as LGB, even if the responder self-identified as heterosexual). I believe the current figure is on the order of 2-4%. Not enough of a difference to affect your point, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

As a gay man, I do enjoy it when a game gives me the option of either choosing a gay character, or interacting with gay characters, or even sexually ambiguous characters. But unfortunately for the video game industry, they can't seem to shake off the stereotype of the lisping effeminate (though Bioware are perhaps better in this regard, cf. Anders in Dragonage 2). I'd venture to say that I think the video game industry should tackle its representation of women before it thinks about minority gender identification, as it might give them some insight.

[Use Of Weapons]

Also:

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

The Biowarean approach to minority groups and sexualities has always struck me as tokenism; one term I've heard refer to Mass Effect-style relationships is "Shepardsexual", where the characters don't have any real autonomy (in as much as a fictional character can) or identity of their own but simply revolve around stroking the ego of the player. I really liked the approach New Vegas took to NPC sexuality; Arcade was gay. He was a troubled character, a strong character whose sense of innate goodness and altruism conflicted with a dark past and heritage that he's not proud of but doesn't wholly reject. Also, he was gay, something you might never discover despite delving fully into interactions with him. He doesn't hide it, he isn't "straight gay", he's just... a person, a well-developed character whose sexuality is important to him but doesn't define his personality. That, to me, is a good gay character. I say this as a straight guy, though, so I probably don't have much worth saying on the topic.

Also fuck any group with the word "Family" in their name as a general rule.

[Kanese S's]

LGBT are part of the population. They're not going away. Since they make up part of the RL population, it only makes sense for them to make up part of the population within in-game universes as well. In games where you get to somewhat design your character, it would be odd at this point not to have that be an option.

If some parents take issue with that, then they shouldn't buy their kids those games. Not every product is made for every customer. And it isn't the responsibility of game companies to raise people's children for them.

[Obdigore]

I really don't understand why we need to talk about close minded bigots whining about something in a game they don't like. These are the same people that thought GTA was teaching kids to kill prostitutes and that this new fangled 'Rock and Roll' is the devils music and anyone who plays it should be strung up.

People that cannot accept that humans are different and some wish to live differently than they do are a problem in society, but it certainly isn't relegated to a problem in video games.

[sting01]

For what is worth :

my last 5 girlfriends are ladyboys, mean in layman language transgender persons.

All of them were playing online games that do NOT offer tg person as choice, and did not mind at all about it.

I think the bigoterrie is in both side; basically people are people and that is it! Now if there is a niche market, a company is right to fill (or try to fill) that niche market, but I am sure LGBT people (not the activists ones) have other problems (similar to yours or mines or hers or his) in their day to day life.

That a group of parpaillots (I am sure they are from some reformed church, or maybe traditionalist catholics, ante Vatican2) take such thing as an outrage is not surprising me. While it may be surprising for the parents (how to explain a young kid about this or that), there is more important things to fight for : It would appear there are 12 millions of kids in USA that do not eat enought on a daily basis ... that is trully outrageous; and it is trully horrific for people like me (french 50 y old) who always considered USA as a living El Dorado (mean a country where no one will starve!).

[Shinrei]

I have a simple solution.

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[Tapper]

Shinrei, on 26 March 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

I have a simple solution.

Repped it, but bullying and bigotry are readily available, there, too.

Anyhow, I don't see how there's claiming for or against inclusion of different sexualities to be done.
Content and design is by a company, the company decides. They'll have two major objectives:
1) profit.
2) making the game they want to make.

If 1) argues for or against, then 2) can sway that argument. If sexuality has no impact in their design (take your average shooter, or strategy game, or online game or whatever, 2) becomes a bit of a moot point.

Sometimes, 2) will be historical correctness. In which case, you may end up in an era where homosexuality and tg are considered abberations and no character will be overtly so - perhaps excluding the player themselves - or where people have a fixed sexuality which simply won't include one or more of the sexual flavors we recognise nowadays.

Then you also get into points where sexuality isn't as pigeonholed as it is nowadays, but simply is: when you stumble across same-sex relationships in ancient mediterranean culture for example, it generally isn't homo-/bi-sexual so much as a mix of heterosexuality and pederastry.

For a non-gaming example of 2)'s ideals going before 1), see Ben and Jerry's approach. They've re-named products to support same sex marriage, for example, turning Chubby-hubby into Hubby-Hubby in a few states. It has been their choice, rather than a demand.

In other words, activists from either sides have nothing to demand. Bigots who want no touchy-touchy on screen and abhorr anything other than missionary position with the lights out between wife and husband, nor activists for acceptance of same sex and transgender sexuality. While I consider the first group a bunch of idiots, the 'demand' (if it really is that rather than a petition) baffles me. Yes, society has a long way to go to true equality, but Bioware is ironically a bit of a front-runner in the gaming industry - I feel there is much more effect to be gained (in raising general awareness and sexual tolerance of the game community/ providing lgtg groups with one or more gaming options according to their tastes) by trying to get other companies on Bioware's level of acceptance and implementation rather than by trying to get Bioware to make all their products reflect real society and sexual flavors.

Also, while the lgtg may be a sizeable community, to play the devil's advocate, what about the SM community or people that are into partner swapping? They're fairly large groups as well, and under-represented in games, too. And to take it one step further, what if someone petitioned on behalf of cloppers or furries? Would Bioware then have to include a pink pony or animals with human sexual organs in their games? What about a-sexuals (which may be a growing group, actually)? Every extra emphasis will detract from their gaming experience, for one.

Until you get a game where sex and sexuality actually matters and influences the game and/or storyline, sex and sexuality are basically side issues (I know, easy to say as a heterosexual male). Extra emotional investment, certainly. Entertaining, yes. But still, a side issue. The galaxy will not be doomed if you do not make out with person X.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 26 March 2012 - 08:33 AM

[Use Of Weapons]

See my signature for my favourite quote on the topic. True as it is, it really does show that perhaps we are all more sexually adventurous than we might like others to know...

[Shinrei]

@Tapper

True. I spent my young days outside playing a variety of sports, and there is no shortage of homophobia in that world to be sure.

[Ulrik]

I was literally stunned when I saw so many negative reactions to youtube video of Shepard having gay sex. Oh my...what the hell is wrong with that? It should be in the first game. There was lesbian possibility, so...

As a heterosexual, I really dont see anything harmful or disturbing on chance to have gays their videogame romance as lesbians and heteros do. So, I went and wrote article for our gaming site... and it was shitstorm. Soooo much hate. I do not need to point I was named by many not pleasant names, but...well, its internet...

For me, its disturbing and sad, that this response isnt coming from some conservative, parental guide psychos... but from young and adult people who should be, at least partially, more open to ideas, differen point of views...and sexuality (heh, yeah, we can make some jokes about gamers and sex).

And it pissed me off. Because they werent against game that forced them to be gays. They were angry, because there was possibility of playing gay. To hell with them... really, only worst reactions I got from article about muslims not wanting to kill anyone...

So, I hope somone will make game where you´ll play only as gay...because this industry really needs it. To wake up.

[Tapper]

UseOfWeapons, on 26 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

See my signature for my favourite quote on the topic. True as it is, it really does show that perhaps we are all more sexually adventurous than we might like others to know...

Probably - but you can't expect companies to cater to hidden desires when in every poll/ questionnaire/ public profile/ discussion (whether with strangers or intimates) those desires aren't expressed nor accepted as normal by the public at large (because they want to maintain a veneer of respectability).
There will always be a curve in which both extremes won't be catered to -whether it is dialogue, romance options or actual displays of affection/ lust in cut-scenes in games or the opening of hang-outs, demonstrations, displays, political agendas or public gatherings.

Especially not when the company the plea is adressed to has to balance its content with age ratings, reviewers, et cetera - all of whom will be really hesitant to add an OK to a game where, say, a nipple is shown, let alone made clear whether character X is a pre-op transvestite or not.

As such, activist groups are barking up the wrong tree and they should recognize that. Their goals ought to be to create public acceptance of lgtg as mainstream. That will allow companies the room for maneuver should they wish to do so. of course, their action isn't about lgtg in games. It is about lgtg in society as a whole, they just decided to ride the waves of publicity surrounding ME and Bioware in general. Free publicity... always good?

Perhaps, but in this case, it was also somewhat stupid. The idea of a demand (once again, if it is that) to a commercial company whose sales relate directly to public acceptance of their product and private acceptance by rating commitees to adjust their content to suit the agenda of a certain focus group (admirable as their agenda and goals may be), is laughable.
They'd be much better fighting the return to Don't Ask Don't Tell in the armed forces that large parts of the republican constituency apparently want, despite the fact that that would mean the ostracizing of a great many people who did come out.

[Tapper]

Quote

For me, its disturbing and sad, that this response isnt coming from some conservative, parental guide psychos... but from young and adult people who should be, at least partially, more open to ideas, differen point of views...and sexuality (heh, yeah, we can make some jokes about gamers and sex).

And it pissed me off. Because they werent against game that forced them to be gays. They were angry, because there was possibility of playing gay. To hell with them... really, only worst reactions I got from article about muslims not wanting to kill anyone...

So, I hope somone will make game where you´ll play only as gay...because this industry really needs it. To wake up.

That's a sentiment I hate as well, I fully agree with your text. To me, it illustrates that as a society as a whole, we aren't as accepting as we seem to think we are - and therefore, if the possibility of being gay was already too much for many, companies will not make games that actually 'make' you gay.

Acceptance in this case is bottom-up, not top-down, through the product, imho.

[cerveza_fiesta]

If gay and lesbian characters are to be added to more story-driven video games with the intent of normalizing gay-ness for the gaming audience it should at least follow the Fallout NV example quoted by somebody above.

Adding a character to a game who *happens to be gay* and has a whole bunch of other stuff going on is how people encounter gays in real life. You are able to empathize through your interactions with them when the gay card eventually gets played, there's some context around it. This parallels a real world example: say you meet a new co-worker who you strike up a friendship with. You chat at work about sports, science, politics or whatever, and then over beers at a bar after work on friday you see him checking out dudes instead of chicks. All of a sudden the realization hits: "oh he's gay then". At that point you can pull the HOLY SHIT HOMO!!!! card or you can just accept that your friend is that way and move on.

Adding a character to a game *because he's gay* is a totally different thing. Shoehorning in a gay character for the wrong reasons just makes them stand out more and reinforces the ideas that gays are obviously different from everybody else and singles them out for ridicule before any deep interaction occurs. It's like websites for big companies where they have pictures of employees doing the work of the company. Invariably there is a woman in a hard hat, a black dude in a meeting and an asian in a lab. The intent is for us to think "wow that company sure is diverse" but everybody knows it's just a token gesture.

Anyway, all that aside. It doesn't surprise me that "family" (read conservative christian) groups in the USA are against gays in video games or anything to do with gays ever. I am however astonished that anybody gives them the time of day or reports on their nonsense.

EDIT I know I used gay throughout the above. I mean LGBTQ and whatever other letters are a part of that now. No offense meant.

This post has been edited by cerveza_fiesta: 26 March 2012 - 02:03 PM

[D'rek]

Cause, on 25 March 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Quote

There were no LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) characters in any of the Star Wars movies. So if BioWare, the maker of Star Wars video games, adds LGBT characters for kids to select as their action figure it could be something like Darth RuPaula, a combination of Darth Vader, one of the most popular Star Wars characters, and RuPaul, the renown transgender cross dresser.

This sort of argument is, IMO, one of the most detrimental to LGBQTTTM activists - this argument that [insert media] has no LGBQTTTM characters whatsoever because none of the characters were shown to have those procilivities. That argument is only valid if for every single character it is shown/stated that they are and only are heterosexual. For the above example, Obi-wan never had any relationships or kids, so we really don't know what his preferences are - maybe he is into Jawas. But this sort of activist argument goes in the complete wrong direction to how I think things should be portrayed - not every character should be assumed to be a non-LGBQTTTM by default. That sort of mentality marginalizes the minorities even further. In reality, some of the people you meet but never learn of their relationship preferences will be striaight, some will be gay, some will be furries, some will be transgender, etc, and I think media and our perception of it should strive to be the same.

[Eltar]

D, on 26 March 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Cause, on 25 March 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Quote

There were no LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) characters in any of the Star Wars movies. So if BioWare, the maker of Star Wars video games, adds LGBT characters for kids to select as their action figure it could be something like Darth RuPaula, a combination of Darth Vader, one of the most popular Star Wars characters, and RuPaul, the renown transgender cross dresser.

This sort of argument is, IMO, one of the most detrimental to LGBQTTTM activists - this argument that [insert media] has no LGBQTTTM characters whatsoever because none of the characters were shown to have those procilivities. That argument is only valid if for every single character it is shown/stated that they are and only are heterosexual. For the above example, Obi-wan never had any relationships or kids, so we really don't know what his preferences are - maybe he is into Jawas. But this sort of activist argument goes in the complete wrong direction to how I think things should be portrayed - not every character should be assumed to be a non-LGBQTTTM by default. That sort of mentality marginalizes the minorities even further. In reality, some of the people you meet but never learn of their relationship preferences will be striaight, some will be gay, some will be furries, some will be transgender, etc, and I think media and our perception of it should strive to be the same.

It was declared in the Jedi Apprentice Expanded Universe novels that Obi Wan was in love with a fellow Jedi named Siri Tachi (a character whom I liked to read, as she was neither a flat or stereotyped feminine heroine, and was a character that provided a good counterbalance to that of Obi Wan's).

Spoiler

She died in the Clone Wars in a later novel while on a mission with Obi Wan, Anakin, and Padme.

But I do agree with your argument, D'rek. You raise valid and sound points that I agree with, especially when you say that we should not assume a character's sexual preference. In an alternate example for your argument, consider Timon and Pumba from Disney's The Lion King. Both are committed bachelors who live with one another, without any females around. Granted it's Disney, a company which has a horrible track record in this field, so they probably aren't gay. And they are animals, not people. But they are characters first and foremost, characters that have had a huge impact on an entire generation of children, and Timon is played by Nathan Lane, an openly gay actor. So who knows.

Going back to the thread's original post, I have a few questions/thoughts. If Bioware - or any other company - were to make a LGBT action figure, how would that be different than making an ordinary action figure? If it is about finding characters who are LGBT and making creating matching toys for them, then in my opinion go ahead. Kids don't usually purchase toys on their own until around the age where they are beginning to realize that all of the conflict over this sort of thing is going on. Until then, and often after, it is primarily adults who purchase the toys, meaning they would still control what the children received and could edit their choices appropriately. It's a free market in the U.S., let it decide whether or not LGBT action figures are marketable.

Yet if the intent is to specifically stamp certain action figures (e.g. Barby, Ken, Commander Shepard, whatever) as being 'gay' action figures... well, that I am not sure I agree with. I feel as though that would only fuel stereotypes and create a publicly sanctioned form of segregation. If you chose to purchase the LGBT action figures, you are supporting a stereotype. If you chose not to purchase the action figures, you would be seen as being anti-LGBT. Maybe I'm taking this train of thought to its absurd end, or maybe not far enough. Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Eltar: 07 April 2012 - 08:24 PM

[worry]

I wouldn't mind a gay doll/action figure...I mean you can already turn Barbie gay and stuff if you want to, but in her actual narrative she's def. straight. But both gay and straight kids play with them, and both gay and straight kids will play with the gay doll too. And if they make terrible low budget CGI straight-to-DVD movies of that gay doll, I'm sure the storylines will feature both gay and straight characters, whereas now they just feature straight characters (or undefined characters, as D'rek points out). I don't think it will mean automatic ghettoization. I mean Barbie and Ken are straight, but they're not all about each other, they have lives and interests and all that beyond a romantic relationship, and the same would be said of a gay doll (if taken seriously). What you're talking about is certainly possible, with an irresponsible out-of-touch producer. Or maybe I'm just being idealistic about this for now, since as far as I can tell, toy commercials are still 90% sex-segregated drivel. Baby Boomers really should have volunteered for a Logan's Run style rule.

[The dancing game]

I cannot imagine too many people would disagree (without a dreadful Path) in gay/lesbian/whatever,maybealiens rights and whatnot, its a very trendy sort of new thinking, gives people an illusionary battle and whatnot. Kinda reminds me of a more subtle and well actually maybe useful version of what not-Kony showed us. More so, I think its a rather unstoppable force, because it is my theory that the greater the global population gets, the more people will tend to learn towards not-straight sexual attractions, and our planets estimated human population cap is at around 10 billion before plague and famine and whatnot start killing us off and stabilizing the population. Another stabilizing factor though will be, I suspect, a subconscious awareness of the population crisis and so a tendency to be gay. I also think the talk of cannibalism will become more normalized, as well as violence, since it will come a point when truly it is each person for themselves, fighting for a spot in our planet's limited capacity. And before I am dubbed insane, which is alright, different than crazy of course, very different I should think, there was an experiment done to this affect involving too many rats in too little cage. More and more of them started having gay sex. Must have been a dreadful observation to be observing, I really do wonder about scientists sometimes.

[Aptorian]

The dancing game, on 14 June 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

I also think the talk of cannibalism will become more normalized, as well as violence, since it will come a point when truly it is each person for themselves, fighting for a spot in our planet's limited capacity.

Our planet has plenty of resources. What we need to sustain us are things that are bountiful, easily produced and easily replenish-able. It is our mass consumption of shit we don't need that is altering our habitat and in the end might fuck us royally.

Cannibalism only occurs in times of extreme hunger. Hunger is not something that is ever going to be a big problem in an industrialised society that has social welfare. The cost of rice or pasta and water is practically nothing. Now, malnutrition on the other hand, meh. Cannibalism is a thing that we are socially and probably genetically programmed to shy away from. Most people would probably rather starve to death than eat human flesh. Violence has never been as low as it is now. This is the most peaceful time in the history of mankind. As long as our scientific and technological breakthroughs keep us advancing I don't really think that is going to change.

The dancing game, on 14 June 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

And before I am dubbed insane, which is alright, different than crazy of course, very different I should think, there was an experiment done to this affect involving too many rats in too little cage. More and more of them started having gay sex.

I think that is an example of why gay sex (and rape, lots of rape) occurs in the prison system. Not the general human population. We are a tiny bit more advanced than a rat.