[Gorrath]

I just finished reading the chapter when Rhulad makes all the Edurs Kneel before him as the new Emperor.

Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand why they all agreed to kneel before him?
I know he's been dead then revived, but I can't understand why the Warlock King didn't attempt to kill him instead of kneeling.
Even if he came back from the dead, he still looked weak at that moment and he was crying like a baby the day before.

Maybe he's now really powerful with that new sword, but how did they know?
They could have killed him again then cut his hands if they thought the sword made him that strong.

Maybe if they thought he had been brought back from the dead by their god or something so it could means he's their god champion or something, but no, since he clearly said the sword was given to him by a new ally.
Kinda weird to kneel before someone who just got bestowed some powerful sword and powers from an entity they don't know anything about.
I could understand the Warlock King kneeling because he knows who gave him the sword but all of them kneeling without asking any questions?
Even if their King knelt, a few chapters back, it seemed like a lot of the Edurs weren't really happy with the Warlock King's actions, so it's not like they would blindingly follow him no matter what.

Usually, I would go check the wiki if I could find the answers I'm looking for by myself, but the last few times I did this, I ended up reading some spoilers I didn't want to read lol

Thanks

[rhulad]

Read and find out. Really can't answer these questions without spoiling the book.

[Upwood]

I had nearly the same question after chapter 10 and 11. I wrote my questions about it down and wanted to finish MD. My old question:
"As I asked me already in chapter 10, why are they all bowing to Rhulad whitout question? I know there will be clarification over time, but it makes absolute no sense at the moment. He is/was a young soldier and speaks like a mad ruler. Why would they kneel to him? The words he spoke were not convincing at all. As an Edur I would think he became insane. Of course Hannan Mosag has some more knowledge, but it was Fear who knelt first."

rhulad, on 19 March 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Read and find out. Really can't answer these questions without spoiling the book.

So now I'm done with MD and questions remain. Do we get more clarification about it in the following books? I still don't like this fact. I see that the Tiste Edur have other values and believes, but I still don't think that means they would kneel before a madman who has become emporer overnight.

I mean Hannan Mosag could have called Rhulad insane. They could have locked him up or done maybe something else.
Why did Fear knelt to him first? Why was everyone around? Why didn't they (espacially Mosag) try to solve it in privacy?

This post has been edited by Upwood: 15 July 2013 - 08:54 PM

[birthSqueeze]

Sometimes you have to accept things as they are and just soldier on, especially with Malazan.

[tiam]

Upwood, on 14 July 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

I had nearly the same question after chapter 10 and 11. I wrote my questions about it down and wanted to finish MD:

As I asked me already in chapter 10, why are they all bowing to Rhulad whitout question? I know there will be clarification over time, but it makes absolute no sense at the moment. He is/was a young soldier and speaks like a mad ruler. Why would they kneel to him? The words he spoke were not convincing at all. As an Edur I would think he became insane. Of course Hannan Mosag has some more knowledge, but it was Fear who knelt first.

rhulad, on 19 March 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Read and find out. Really can't answer these questions without spoiling the book.

So now I'm done with MD and questions remain. Do we get more clarification about it in the following books? I still don't like this fact. I see that the Tiste Edur have other values and believes, but I still don't think that means they would kneel before a madman who has become emporer overnight.

I mean Hannan Mosag could have called Rhulad insane. They could have locked him up or done maybe something else.
Why did Fear knelt to him first? Why was everyone around? Why didn't they (espacially Mosag) try to solve it in privacy?

If youve finished the book you would know that Hannan Mossag knows where the power comes from as it was he that made the deal with an unknown entity (avoiding spoilers for OP) thus knows he is outmatched. If Hannan Mossag kneels, after uniting all of the Edur tribes and meekly accepts his new position it is hardly surprising that the Hiroth tribe would.

[Kanese S's]

Because they were originally sent specifically to get the sword for Hannan Mossag. Thus, it follows that Hannan Mossag knows exactly what the sword is and what power is behind it.

[Upwood]

birthSqueeze, on 15 July 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Sometimes you have to accept things as they are and just soldier on, especially with Malazan.

You have a point in that.

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 15 July 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

If youve finished the book you would know that Hannan Mossag knows where the power comes from as it was he that made the deal with an unknown entity (avoiding spoilers for OP) thus knows he is outmatched. If Hannan Mossag kneels, after uniting all of the Edur tribes and meekly accepts his new position it is hardly surprising that the Hiroth tribe would.

Kanese S, on 15 July 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Because they were originally sent specifically to get the sword for Hannan Mossag. Thus, it follows that Hannan Mossag knows exactly what the sword is and what power is behind it.

I know that Hannan Mosag knows about the swords power and he had some kind of deal with the unknown entity (shouldn't we already know who it is?). But the unknown entity told Rhulad that Mosag wanted to trick him. So i assume he didn't trust him and as I said he could have done something else like cut the sword from Rhulads hand or lock him up. And it was not Mosag but Fear who knelt first.

@J-C Van Tiam: I know that the Edur are not a tribe to challenge or question that much in the open discourse. But we get hints that they ask questions themselves like Trull and don't agree with everything. So when it comes to to Rhulad claims to be the new emperor I think they shouldn't kneel to a Edur who is 1) young and inexperienced 2) reborn from death 3) likely insane 4) with a horrible speech.

This post has been edited by Upwood: 15 July 2013 - 09:21 PM

[Kanese S's]

Fear was on the same expedition and saw his brother get killed, and at the very least knows that the sword can't be taken from Rhulad's hand. He's not very questioning, but he's also not stupid. He could easily have put two and two together and realized that the sword had brought Rhulad back and would likely continue to do so, even while not knowing who the entity behind it is.

I'm not sure why they wouldn't kneel to someone who'd come back from death?

[worry]

In terms of leadership, I think you're using a "common sense" reasoning that just has no bearing on reality. Like 99.9% of humanity's leaders have been raving madmen. How many times have we chosen our leaders because they were the offspring of our previous leaders? Besides that, there are a couple billion people right now, 21st Century earth, who worship a 30 year old who returned from the dead 2000 years ago (not a commentary on the religion, just a counter of points 1 and 2 above).

Witnessing a miracle is pretty powerful stuff, and these guys saw it with their own eyes. And regardless of the new ally, the vast majority of Edur are going to see this is as Rhulad being the chosen one of Father Shadow. All that said, does it matter to the common Edur whether Mosag or Rhulad are in charge? The Edur want to take on the Letherii, and that bloodlust was set up by Mosag long before Rhulad's resurrection. And if you're going to war, what better leader than one who is unkillable? Seems like God himself has blessed your war.

[tiam]

worry, on 15 July 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Witnessing a miracle is pretty powerful stuff, and these guys saw it with their own eyes. And regardless of the new ally, the vast majority of Edur are going to see this is as Rhulad being the chosen one of Father Shadow. All that said, does it matter to the common Edur whether Mosag or Rhulad are in charge? The Edur want to take on the Letherii, and that bloodlust was set up by Mosag long before Rhulad's resurrection. And if you're going to war, what better leader than one who is unkillable? Seems like God himself has blessed your war.

This

Fear guilt over his brothers initial death, the willingness to believe its father shadow (which I believe fear even asks about), the general meeting after Trull kills that Letherii hunter there are alot of balls in the air before Rhulad comes back. If hed simply 'cold called' them to make a pun then maybe he wouldnt have been successful. I have never found it difficult to believe that the Edur would kneel.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Everything said above is pretty spot on, but I think there is more too.

Mosag wanted to cut the sword hand off before Rhulad was resurrected the first time, but Uruth said "no", I think because Rhulad died after having killed people in battle, or "blooded", and mutilating the dead is anathema to the Edur. Mosag, ever not the idiot, is probably already aware of what the sword is capable of and was probably thinking out loud, and knows that even if he tried to cut it off, it would not be enough. There's a buttload of power in that sword.. He's also most likely aware that the Edur women still have a pretty strong connection with Elder Emurlahn, and most of Mosag's power at this time comes from The Crippled God. He would have a fight on his hands and is probably now aware that The Criplped God doesn't think too highly of him at the moment and might not come to his aid.

Further, Rhulad, upon returning to life, basically said to Mosag that the Crippled God wants Rhulad to have the sword because Mosag is "weak" (TCG's words). TCG believed that Mosag was going to betray him, so he was happy to have impetuous and ambitious Rhulad in possession. Then Rhulad heals Binadas, and promises Fear to take the Edur "home". THis convinces those two, and then he convinces Mosag to kneel by threatening to expose Mosag's true plans, (almost spoilered this, but will settle for a RAFO). Mosag is no dummy and feels he's better off alive and able to manipulate some things behind the scenes, rather than dead at Rhulad's sword.

Once Rhulad has Mosag (and his K'risnan) and Fear and Binadas under his thumb, the rest is easy. Fear is the most respected warrior of the Edur. Mosag is the warlock, but remember his power over the tribes is the result of his keeping the K'risnan as hostages, Binadas being one of these. The rest of the people fall in because that is what people do. They are sheep. And really, what are they going to do? Say "Naw, this ain't my war. I'm just gonna sit here, skin seals and put grease in my dreadies. Have fun stormin' the castle!"

[tiam]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 16 July 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Everything said above is pretty spot on, but I think there is more too.

Mosag wanted to cut the sword hand off before Rhulad was resurrected the first time, but Uruth said "no", I think because Rhulad died after having killed people in battle, or "blooded", and mutilating the dead is anathema to the Edur. Mosag, ever not the idiot, is probably already aware of what the sword is capable of and was probably thinking out loud, and knows that even if he tried to cut it off, it would not be enough. There's a buttload of power in that sword.. He's also most likely aware that the Edur women still have a pretty strong connection with Elder Emurlahn, and most of Mosag's power at this time comes from The Crippled God. He would have a fight on his hands and is probably now aware that The Criplped God doesn't think too highly of him at the moment and might not come to his aid.

Further, Rhulad, upon returning to life, basically said to Mosag that the Crippled God wants Rhulad to have the sword because Mosag is "weak" (TCG's words). TCG believed that Mosag was going to betray him, so he was happy to have impetuous and ambitious Rhulad in possession. Then Rhulad heals Binadas, and promises Fear to take the Edur "home". THis convinces those two, and then he convinces Mosag to kneel by threatening to expose Mosag's true plans, (almost spoilered this, but will settle for a RAFO). Mosag is no dummy and feels he's better off alive and able to manipulate some things behind the scenes, rather than dead at Rhulad's sword.

Once Rhulad has Mosag (and his K'risnan) and Fear and Binadas under his thumb, the rest is easy. Fear is the most respected warrior of the Edur. Mosag is the warlock, but remember his power over the tribes is the result of his keeping the K'risnan as hostages, Binadas being one of these. The rest of the people fall in because that is what people do. They are sheep. And really, what are they going to do? Say "Naw, this ain't my war. I'm just gonna sit here, skin seals and put grease in my dreadies. Have fun stormin' the castle!"

A few things

-Very good point about the society of women and their power.

- I think its mentioned that Rhulad was blooded but I think Trull even goes 'does it matter?' because of course Hannan Mossag wanted to desecrate the body of a noble warrior which would be a social taboo. Not simply that but wasnt Trulls father a potential rival leader,as I suppose alot of the heads of the Hiroth families were.

-I think its mentioned that Hannan Mossag wasnt so much weak simply not what the CG needed. He wanted the swords power to make his people unassailable in the north, thats why Seren Pedac is so surprised because he wants peace. He wanted the power as a defence rather than an offensive tool which is why Rhulad was more suitable. It was a case of Mossag betraying the CG trust in this regard.

-Binadas isnt a Krisnan. The loyalty of the Hiroth is due to it being his tribe not like the others where the Krisnan are the first born of eavch tribal leader.

-The assembled people who submit to Rhulad are noble families arent they? They are utterly shocked at the events with their world rocked out from under them but we see that Mayen was integral to settling them down in that instance. Her face helps both Fear and the assembled nobles come to grips with the new situation

Thus Mossag would have had to cross a rival for the head of his own tribe whose family included a high ranking member of the women who form a mages cabal of sorts within the tribes, whose son (Fear) was the main warleader of the tribes, whose second son (Trull) was an integral member of support at a recent decisive council of war and a well respected warrior of the tribes and whose other son (Binadas) is one of the most powerful sorcerers of the Hiroth tribe and implied as one of the best of the assembled tribe. All this before we get to Rhulad who holds so much knowledge and power over the Warlock King that it would make his position untenable. He essentially took the beating well otherwise he would have undoubtedly faced death or banishment or even Shorning.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

My mistake on calling Binadas a Krisnan.

Rhulad definitely calls Mosag "weak", but not in the meaning that he isn't up to the task, but that he is not so much dedicated to The Crippled God's mission as we are initially led to believe. So I think I was just understating it.

As far as being blooded, no it didn't matter at all, but Uruth mentions that since he was, it was all the more a desecration to cut off the hand.

Mayen was a great character for this book. A lot of shit revolves around her as a focus of things, and with all the other characters, I guess she gets forgotten about. I suppose she was responsible for calming the rank and file. But I still think it was the fact that Mosag capitulated that brought the rest to heel. I am not sure if when all the tribes knelt to Rhulad was offscreen or not. I think the next Rhulad scene that followed Fear and Mosag's kneeling was with the Letherii envoy that came to strike the deal. Then he dismisses the Letherii and asks Fear for Mayen. THat's when she smiles "does poorly at a brave face". And Trull is pissed.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 16 July 2013 - 04:53 PM

[Upwood]

Thanks a lot to all the good new views you gave me. I think it all comes together.

worry, on 15 July 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

In terms of leadership, I think you're using a "common sense" reasoning that just has no bearing on reality. Like 99.9% of humanity's leaders have been raving madmen. How many times have we chosen our leaders because they were the offspring of our previous leaders?

A really good hint about following a madman. I was too narrow focused on my own thoughts. Just look back in history with Hitler, Stalin or Mao or even at the present time. Groupe pressure is very strong influence and encourages others to change their values and attitude.

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 16 July 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

...the willingness to believe its father shadow (which I believe fear even asks about)...

But Fear should have already known that Father Shadow is death. At least it is revealed in Chapter 3 when the Senger brothers visit the Bowl and see Scabandari's skull. Trull asks who killed him and Fear states: "All of them. Elder gods. And Elient. The Elder gods loosed the blood in their veins. The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye. Father Shadow was brought down. An Elder god named Kilmandaros shattered his skull. They then made for Bloodeye's spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured."

[Abyss]

Upwood, on 30 July 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

...

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 16 July 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

...the willingness to believe its father shadow (which I believe fear even asks about)...

But Fear should have already known that Father Shadow is death. At least it is revealed in Chapter 3 when the Senger brothers visit the Bowl and see Scabandari's skull. Trull asks who killed him and Fear states: "All of them. Elder gods. And Elient. The Elder gods loosed the blood in their veins. The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye. Father Shadow was brought down. An Elder god named Kilmandaros shattered his skull. They then made for Bloodeye's spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured."

But note that Fear only knew this because he was Weapons Master. The ruling Women and Clan heads were the only other ones who knew and they kept it a secret.
Calling Mosag on the source of his power and knowledge would have been the same as telling all the Letherii Edur that their god was dead and had been for thousands of years. They couldn't.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 30 July 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Upwood, on 30 July 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

...

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 16 July 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

...the willingness to believe its father shadow (which I believe fear even asks about)...

But Fear should have already known that Father Shadow is death. At least it is revealed in Chapter 3 when the Senger brothers visit the Bowl and see Scabandari's skull. Trull asks who killed him and Fear states: "All of them. Elder gods. And Elient. The Elder gods loosed the blood in their veins. The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye. Father Shadow was brought down. An Elder god named Kilmandaros shattered his skull. They then made for Bloodeye's spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured."

But note that Fear only knew this because he was Weapons Master. The ruling Women and Clan heads were the only other ones who knew and they kept it a secret.
Calling Mosag on the source of his power and knowledge would have been the same as telling all the Letherii Edur that their god was dead and had been for thousands of years. They couldn't.

I didnt interpret it as Fear sort of playing along hinting that the power behind could be Father Shadow simply Fear hoping it was the spirit of Father Shadow which he believes/hopes is still out there. It makes much more sense for him to come to this conclusion that their ancient ancestor god has once again found his people rather than coming to the conclusion that his warlock king had allowed his entire people to become the a tool of choas. Not playing along for the crowd and more wishful thinking to me atleast.