[amphibian]

Umback Dredd, on 10 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

5) Jereth and Jantho. So, the covenant was made between them and Khryl. But, then it turns out that Jantho is Khryl? Was he a god all along? If not, how did he come to represent the gods at this negotiating table? Cuz it sounds to me like JJ were all "man we hate gods, gods suck" and then they started a war with the gods, but then they decided to make a deal with gods, and then instead of talking to the actual gods jereth and jantho just turned to each other and shook hands and were like, "ok, we have a deal!" and then gods would be all, "wait wtf, we didn't have any say in this." So, some clarification about what exactly happened there?

Jantho and Jereth were men who became gods - like Ma'elkoth, who was Hannto turned godly. How they gained the power to bind the gods to the covenant of Pirichanthe is I think glossed over. Will do a re-read this weekend.

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7) How did these Caine fetches come about? Is this similar to the unhappenings that the gods have been effecting all across history? And who's the Angvasse he's hanging out with in the past? Is she a fetch too? Or are they actually travelling through time?

I don't know how exactly the fetches come about. As a joke, I claim that a Transmogrifier was hidden somewhere in the Boedoken, but in all seriousness, I'm going to re-read the book again this weekend and find out the real answer. As for Time-Travelin' Angvasse, she too is a fetch, but is also time-travelin' with Time-Travelin' Fetch Caine.

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8) Is the Caine in present day Overworld (during all the action that happens after his arrest in CBK) just like the other floating through time fetches we see in the past, or is this the "real" Caine? I assumed the "real" Caine is the one chained up and chatting with Gayle and Faller on Earth the whole time, but I just want to be clear.

I too call the Caine talking to Gayle and Fuller the "real" Caine. However, the others did exist - it's just that their timelines close off and shunt into the real Caine's reality. Somehow, this means the Horse Witch isn't yet with Caine again - which is kind of a mind-fuck.

Quote

9) And going back to his deal he made, when did he make this deal during his timeline? Is this all part of the same deal he made on the cross in the Boedecken way back when? Or is this some other deal? And if so, when did he find time to make it? Before the events of CBK?

He made this deal when he was on the cross in the Boedoken. Pirichante exists outside of time, so the deal happened all times at once and the different versions of Caine worked to make sure the deal happened, stayed strong and came to its conclusion at the end of the book.

Quote

10) In Caine's dreamworld (which reminded me so much of Kruppe and K'rul's dream hangouts) , where does the version of Duncan come from? Is he pulled from the past when he's writing Tales of the First Folk? Is he from some alternate universe altogether?

I strongly suspect that the Duncan that was impaled by the Sword of Man came from Caine's own mind and is a metaphor that somehow linked into the spirit of all the Duncans, even as the real Duncan was turned into a cyborg techno-scum filter.

Again, this is all fresh discussion based on one read of the book, so feel free to quote-and-destroy. I'll certainly do the same with my own stuff and those of others. This book is worth it.

[Salt-Man Z]

amphibian, on 11 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Somehow, this means the Horse Witch isn't yet with Caine again - which is kind of a mind-fuck.

Nah, Caine's still with the horse-witch. The horse-witch stuff all takes place prior to CBK with the "real" Caine (barring for the alternate-timeline slave girl encounter.) When he gets the Call from Pirichanthe (in CBK) he's with her. We see him go and say goodbye in CL before heading out to Purthin's Ford for his CBK adventure. Also, in CBK when he's talking with t'Passe, she brings up the Faltane County War:

CBK pg 194 said:

"You had been going by Jonathan Fist, yes? At least, that is the name I have for you when you went south, when you instigated that border war along with Orbek and the horse-witch--"

Near as I can figure, the only fetches are the time-travelling Caine and Angvasse in the past, and the post-CBK Caine. (There's no reason post-CBK Angvasse can't be the real thing.) I can only assume the fetches were created by Pirichanthe as part of the deal struck with alternate-Caine in BELOVED OF GOD. We know that post-CL, god-Duncan (in control of the dillin) will have the power to create Caine and Angvasse fetches, so I'd assume that Pirichanthe also has that ability prior to that.

[Salt-Man Z]

If I've got time later tonight, I'd like to try constructing a timeline of the CBK and CL chapters.

[mastadge]

Salt-Man Z, on 11 April 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

If I've got time later tonight, I'd like to try constructing a timeline of the CBK and CL chapters.

That shouldn't be too hard, considering that Stover helpfully numbered the chapters within the various timelines. It'll be interesting to do a chronological re-read, though, for sure.

[Abyss]

JUST FINISHED IT.
Loved it.
Don't have time to comment right now but looking fwd to discussing because fuck me sideways in the ass like a chicken pot pie THAT WAS AWESOME.

He subverted virtually every expectation i had for the book, and it was PERFECT.

Tanner... the Horse Witch... the Black Knives... the bit with the dragons... the Black Oil twist...
The dialogue... how does he DO THAT?
Seriously, Stover is like Neil Gaiman with a potty mouth when it comes to putting words in characters mouths.

- Abyss, ...fuck me that was good...

[Pig Iron]

Amazing. Just finished it and went here to get some clues to what I just read. One reading is Pirichanthe is Duncan/based on Duncan. Or rather what Pirichanthe becomes (and therefore after a certain point might always have been), though how the elves could create something that powerful remains open. It seems Caine could very well be a spontaneous theo-whatever, like the horse-witch, and this even before the fetches are created in various times. After all, she says they've known each other forever (though she says eating an apple can be forever so), and that he was present at the treaty. And it is said Jhereth was some kind of human fetch of a god of murder with the colour black, Tyshalle means black and Caine comments that his flow is black, as are his colours, as is his flow - as is the oil. When confronting Orbeks bitch wife Caine asks Tanner to look for a Triple Aspect: Outsider/Ideational/Natural = Pirichanthe/Khryl/Blind God. And he says it's present. Basically, in the world as it becomes/always has been after that Caine might have become/be a metaphysical principle. Stover is close to Erikson there (making metaphores real).

[amphibian]

Hah, so (The Crippled God spoiler)

Spoiler

Caine = better version of Nefarias Bredd.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 15 April 2012 - 06:53 PM

[Pig Iron]

amphibian, on 15 April 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Hah, so (The Crippled God spoiler)

Spoiler

Caine = better version of Nefarias Bredd.

Heh, exactly. Except now Ill never be able not to think of him that way, thanks

In TMBOTF you have personalizations of Chaos, Light, Dark and so on all the way to Disease and War, with the Deck as a sort of index of who's doing what at the moment. Very similar things must be going on in Cainverse, with Ascendants losing some but not all of their humanity. Think horse-witch, Pallas, MaelKoth and Khryl could have fit right in there with eg QoD, Cottillion or Trake. Caine seems to take on several roles and lose distinction from several others who came before him but did similar things. He goes farther though, destroying the universe and choosing a new one. Dalkannith was supposed to be a creator god, but I guess Caine becomes a new one. Caine's Kali basically, god of destruction and creation - but ultimately also of vengeance and justice (sometimes shared as in J&J or Caine and Angvasse).

I think QB or even Tavore should have done something equally epic. Slackers.

Edit: Kali even means black. This works remarkably well:

"Kālī (Sanskrit: काली, IPA: [kɑːliː]; Bengali: কালী; Punjabi: ਕਾਲੀ; Tamil: காளி; Telugu: కాళికాదేవి; Kannada: ಕಾಳಿ ಮಾತೆ), also known as Kālikā (Sanskrit: कालिका, Bengali: কালিকা), is the Hindu goddess associated with empowerment, shakti. The name Kali comes from kāla, which means black, time, death, lord of death, Shiva. Kali means "the black one". Since Shiva is called Kāla—the eternal time—Kālī, his consort, also means "Time" or "Death" (as in time has come). Hence, Kāli is considered the goddess of time and change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilation still has some influence. Various Shakta Hindu cosmologies, as well as Shākta Tantric beliefs, worship her as the ultimate reality or Brahman. She is also revered as Bhavatārini (literally "redeemer of the universe"). Comparatively recent devotional movements largely conceive Kāli as a benevolent mother goddess.[1]"

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 16 April 2012 - 12:33 AM

[amphibian]

In Nepali, which is also derived from Sanskrit like Hindi, "kalo" is the specific word for black. However, kallu, kaili/kaley, kailo, kaila are also recognized as being connected to the concept of "black" through nicknames or people names.

And yes, most depictions of Kali show her as being black. Shiva is usually shown as blue - as in Terry Pratchett's "infinity is blue colored" concept. So awesome how some of this stuff either consciously plays into that or accidentally does. I suppose Stover and Pratcheett will keep mum as to which it is.

[Cedz]

I really enjoyed it, although I was a little disappointed about that lack of action sequences (or fast forwarding past them) as the previous books have been somewhat action heavy. I'm still trying to get my head around what actually happened and how it all fit together with the previous books too. But wow Stover sure knows how to weave together a complicated story in a way that keeps you riveted to the page!

I think Stover should have made the Faltane County War more of an action sequence instead of glossing over it. Either way was an awesome book.

[Abyss]

i had the same initial reaction about the lack of action scenes but went i went back to reread i realized that between the Smoke Hunt zombirillos, the balls-out awesome fight w Tucker (seriously how FUCKED is that fight... at one point Caine is suffocating and Tucker is bleeding out and they are STILL going at it with knives!) and the Khryl's Justice scene (three rounds is enough!) are all actually brilliant fight scenes, albeit shorter and 'smaller' in scope than we might have expected after CBK.

That said Stover addresses this at the finale in the SP base when he has Caine blow up the SP heads and say something like 'you expected a massive Bond battle because it was the finale of a Caine story. Well fuck you, it just happened and you lost.'. And then dragons.

Usually a good book makes me want to go back and reread the best scenes. This made me NEED to go back and reread the entire series.

[Salt-Man Z]

Toward piecing together a timeline, I jotted down some very brief summaries of the CL chapters:

Spoiler

one thin slice of forever: BELOVED OF GOD
- Caine strikes a deal with Pirichanthe in an alternate future
introduction: FEAR BY DEFINITION
- Faller and Keller prepare to confront Caine, post-CBK
the whole story: SCARS AND SCARS
- young Hari meets a future Caine
beginning of the end: BOUND
- Caine takes the black oil
the now of always: WHAT DREAMS MAY COME
- metaphor-Caine summons metaphor-Duncan
premise: TIMES THAT BIND
- Orbek and Caine discuss his deal with Pirichanthe, pre-Call
the now of always 2: POWERFUL ENOUGH
- metaphor-Caine and -Duncan discuss the sword
end of the beginning: MISTER GOOD-BYE
- before heading to Purthin's Ford, Jonathan Fist says goodbye to the horse-witch
the now of always 3: COMPLICATED
- the metaphor-horse-witch arrives
end of the beginning 2: ASSBITCH OF THE GODS
- after the Faltane County War, Caine visits Raithe in Ankhana
the horse-witch: FERAL
- Fist and Orbek meet the horse-witch
the horse-witch 2: PROFESSIONALS
- Fist stops Tanner from killing the horse-witch
the horse-witch 3: PROPOSITIONS
- Fist talks Blackwood & Dane into starting the Faltane County War
the now of always 4: ENTER HERO
- metaphor-Angvasse arrives
yesterday's tomorrow: MEAT PUPPETS
- fetch-Caine returns to Purthin's Ford, post-CBK
yesterday's tomorrow (2): INTERVENTION
- fetch-Caine reveals Angvasse to be an Aspect of Khryl
the now of always 5: LOVE ABSOLUTE
- the metaphors talk
middle of the end: THE MOCKINGBIRD TEST
- Caine chats with Faller and Keller
raining weird: GOOD AND EVIL
- Fist returns to the horse-witch after the Faltane County War
raining weird 2: ALL ABOUT THE GIRL
- Fist sends Tanner back to the Monastaries
raining weird 3: RELIABLE SOURCES
- Fist visits the Thorncleft Embassy and finds out about the alternate Faltane County War
the now of always 6: CONSIDER INSANITY
- metaphor-Kris arrives
tomorrow's yesterday: ELFSHOT
- fetch-Caine and fetch-Angvasse steal Rroni's hair in the past
tomorrow's yesterday 2: TRUTH TO POWER
- fetch-Caine and -Angavsse meet with the horse-witch in the past
tomorrow's yesterday 3: FATHER ISSUES
- fetch-Caine and -Angvasse meet Duncan and Ravenlock in the past
the now of always 7: THE ART OF UNHAPPENING
- metaphor-Pallas arrives
devices and maneuvers: RUN AND GUN
- Fist and Tucker break into BlackStone and recover Khryl's Hand
the now of always 8: A DARKLING WOOD
- metaphor-Ma-el'Koth arrives
devices and maneurvers 2: JUSTICE
- Fist kills Smoke Hunter Orbek and escapes the Ring of Justice with Angvasse
the now of always 9: FUCK GOD
- metaphor-Caine and -Ma'elKoth talk
the horse-witch 4: HORSE TIME
- the horse-witch tells Fist the story of the Faltane slave woman
the now of always 10: REASONS FOR PEASANTS
- metaphor-Duncan makes his choice
the happiest of all the infinite possible endings: POKE THE BEAR
- Caine springs his trap on Keller
afterword: TO THE MASTERS OF EARTH
- Caine addresses the Board of Governors
prologue

Here's my initial attempt at a timeline:

Quote

Tomorrow's Yesterday
Scars and Scars
Then (CBK)
(HD)
(BoT)
Times That Bind {?}
The Horse-Witch
[FALTANE COUNTY WAR]
Raining Weird 1-2
Gift (CBK)
Mister Good-Bye
Assbitch of the Gods / Raining Weird 3
Now (CBK) *
A Deal With God (CBK)
Fear By Definition
Bound
The Mockingbird Test
Poke the Bear
To the Masters of Earth

* post-CBK fetch-branch:
Yesterday's Tomorrow
Devices and Maneuvers

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 17 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

[Cedz]

Abyss, on 17 April 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

i had the same initial reaction about the lack of action scenes but went i went back to reread i realized that between the Smoke Hunt zombirillos, the balls-out awesome fight w Tucker (seriously how FUCKED is that fight... at one point Caine is suffocating and Tucker is bleeding out and they are STILL going at it with knives!) and the Khryl's Justice scene (three rounds is enough!) are all actually brilliant fight scenes, albeit shorter and 'smaller' in scope than we might have expected after CBK.

That said Stover addresses this at the finale in the SP base when he has Caine blow up the SP heads and say something like 'you expected a massive Bond battle because it was the finale of a Caine story. Well fuck you, it just happened and you lost.'. And then dragons.

Usually a good book makes me want to go back and reread the best scenes. This made me NEED to go back and reread the entire series.

I definitely agree on one thing...

Fucking dragons

[drinksinbars]

enjoyed it - was very good. Too much of a happy ending though for a caine book

[Alrin]

I loved Caine's Law so, so much. Probably the strongest book in the series and now my all-time favourite book, ahead of Blade of Tyshalle. The Acts of Caine are a truly unique monster, no two novels in the sequence are alike.

This post has been edited by Alrin: 30 May 2012 - 07:25 AM

[Tapper]

Briar King, on 30 May 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Ok so....I'm on pg 83 of CL and I'm just straight up confused... Doesent even feel like a Caine book to me so far. I hope this changes quick....

It's got less bad-assery and more philosophy than the others, but there are elements of kick-ass aplenty. I recognize the confusion - once I was past the horse witch chapters, things got less confusing and more 'splody. I particularly like how this twists the Retreat from the Boedecken chapters in CBK.

[Abyss]

Briar King, on 30 May 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Ok so....I'm on pg 83 of CL and I'm just straight up confused... Doesent even feel like a Caine book to me so far. I hope this changes quick....

Keep reading. different tho the book is, the kicky 'sploddy'fuckyouuppy is coming.

[Salt-Man Z]

Briar King, on 30 May 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Ok so....I'm on pg 83 of CL and I'm just straight up confused... Doesent even feel like a Caine book to me so far. I hope this changes quick....

It will feel more like a "Caine book" very soon; you'll probably stay confused, though.

[amphibian]

The following is going to be full of spoilers. I'd actually gotten this down a while ago, but lost the scratch paper I wrote it on.

Caine was born being associated with the Sword of Man (Kosall, which has the finality to impose things even unto the Gods of the universe). Eventually, things worked out so that he became a literal metaphor for the Sword and the Sword was more him than anything else.

The deal Caine made with Pirichanthe happened at every time possible, due to the nature of non-linear time for a god.

The Caine in the clinic in the beginning is a fetch and also the Caine who stabs Duncan in the "border zone between worlds". This is not the same Caine that is the real Caine that we've been following through the previous books. The fetch Caine who stabs Duncan is telling Caine Black Knife (the book) to us.

The Caine that gun-fucked Angvasse after talking to T'Passe is a fetch. This is the same fetch that goes into the cave with Tanner to confront the Black Knife clan and steals the thunder from Orbek's wife. This fetch becomes Khryl's Champion as well as the kwatcharr of the Black Knife clan. This is the Caine that makes the deal with Pirichanthe, when he steals the thunder.

The Caine we see at the very beginning is a Caine from a timeline that never was - where he had to do everything the hard way and kill his way through everybody to get the end result.

Jantho is the name for "Dawn". Jereth is "Dusk". Jantho is Khryl, who was originally a resident of an area that worshipped Dal'Kannith Wargod. Jantho got sick of it and started working with Jereth, who may or may not have been his brother. Jereth somehow became an ascendant of slaughter and associated with the Sword of Man. Jereth's nickname of "The Dark Man" is strikingly similar to Caine (Black Knife). Jereth is the one who cut off Jantho/Khryl's hand with finality.

Somehow, Caine's fetch, through the association with the Sword of Man/Jereth, was present at the Deomachy when this happened. The fetches of Caine were spit out by Pirichanthe to ensure the creation of Pirichanthe itself.

Angvasse in the time traveling portions is the Hand of Khryl personified (representing Jantho, as Caine represents Jereth).

My only two "sticking points" in this book were when Jonathan Fist remembers the unhappened horsewitch death in the stables (page 277, roughly) and the scholarly aside regarding the impact of the Declaration of Caine when Caine flips onto the arena floor (page 410). The Jonathan Fist moment is odd because Fist is from another timeline and unless there's bleeding through going on, he shouldn't be remembering this. The scholarly moment is weird because it's supposed to come off like T'Passe is writing it, but it's crammed in at the wrong moment. This would work better as a pre-chapter epigram or a post-script. It might be Stover's sole writerly misstep in this book.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 30 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

The following is going to be full of spoilers. I'd actually gotten this down a while ago, but lost the scratch paper I wrote it on...

I stand in awe of your reasoning and applaud it heartily. If it were within my modgod abilities to send you nurses and sides of beef i would do so. Have rep instead.

Quote

My only two "sticking points" in this book were when Jonathan Fist remembers the unhappened horsewitch death in the stables (page 277, roughly) and the scholarly aside regarding the impact of the Declaration of Caine when Caine flips onto the arena floor (page 410). The Jonathan Fist moment is odd because Fist is from another timeline and unless there's bleeding through going on, he shouldn't be remembering this. The scholarly moment is weird because it's supposed to come off like T'Passe is writing it, but it's crammed in at the wrong moment. This would work better as a pre-chapter epigram or a post-script. It might be Stover's sole writerly misstep in this book.

The Jonathan Fist moment i agree is a bleed-thru and iirc the lead-in even states it has unhappened already. But the Horsewitch shows a few times that she is aware of unhappened events and can show Caine some of them, so we might be meant to assume she passed this to a Caine who is still in play.

As for T'Passe... ummm.... the timeline is not important?