[Salt-Man Z]

The T'Passe thing could be an error that came from shuffling the various scenes around while editing, presumably much like the error in CBK when Caine (on his way to visit Orbek) reflects on Simon Faller a couple chapters before he first hears about the guy.

[Tapper]

In addition to what you wrote (perhaps redundantly, AND EFFING SPOILERY):

I'm very certain that the Black Knife God in Return to the Boedecken is already the metaphorical Duncan who has been pierced by the sword, aka: Pirichanthe. This becomes very apparent during a re-read of Caine Black Knife. Secondly, it is my guesstimate that the Champion of Khryll/ kwatcharr of the Black Knives fetch will disappear when the real Caine comes back to Overworld at the back of Faithe's griffon, just like he popped into existence when Hari was abducted from Overworld.

The main question for me is now two-fold: is that 'real' Caine that survived BoT in and by himself already a fetch of a real, deceased Caine (after all, he survived the equivalent of a nuclear blast) or is he the real Caine sent out by Pirichanthe, who reached back in time from being the future Overworld dill guardian that Caine and Angvasse create?
Considering that Overworld ended at the True Assumption of Mael'Koth (or rather, the Truce of the Deomachy ended there), it is not beyond possible that the future Pirichanthe reached back in time and released a first Caine to guarantee its own existence - and apparently, fetches can reach Hell, as seen as by the non-existent Caine talking to little Hari and Duncan in the clinic, so that's no stopping block for the "real" Caine being already dead.

Quote

Jantho is the name for "Dawn". Jereth is "Dusk". Jantho is Khryl, who was originally a resident of an area that worshipped Dal'Kannith Wargod. Jantho got sick of it and started working with Jereth, who may or may not have been his brother. Jereth somehow became an ascendant of slaughter and associated with the Sword of Man. Jereth's nickname of "The Dark Man" is strikingly similar to Caine (Black Knife). Jereth is the one who cut off Jantho/Khryl's hand with finality.

What if it was slightly different? Jantho = Khryl, and as you say, perhaps a human. Or perhaps not.
Caine and Angvasse specifically are both tools of Pirichanthe. They mirror Jantho and Jereth.
Jereth may well be a manifestation of Caine/Kosall, who are metaphores for one another and for slaughter - and, perhaps even more important, for balance. Caine, as he monologues several times, is a leveller. He is destined to murder evil/ power abusers, but everything goes to hell whenever he murders someone who doesn't really deserve it. So if Caine is a manifestation of equality of power and balance of power, then Khryl may be the personification of protection and/or war, and the severing of the Hand of Peace by the Sword may have been done to keep the balance instead of making Khryl overpowering everything else. Perhaps that severing was Jantho and Jereth being withdrawn from home for the duration of the Deomachy, and perhaps their mythical war on the gods was instead Pirichanthe releasing Caine and Khryl/Angvasse fetches against the gods - what better to slaughter gods with than an ever returning number of super power fetches?

So, to get on real shaky ground: Pirichanthe is a balance act, just like Caine and the mythical Khryl.
Pirichanthe can cast out heroes (as defined by the Fist fetch: Angvasse-fetches) and Caine. What if the solution to the Deomachy was, once more, Piritchanthe reaching back in time? Jantho and Jereth being aspects of Pirichanthe? If Pirichanthe casts out Angvasse fetches and Angvasse is the personification of Khryl, what is then to stop us from saying that Khryl himself (or perhaps better: Jantho) was a fetch sent by Pirichanthe? It would explain the mythical brother/non-brother hero/anti hero light/dark protection/murder aspects that surround Jantho and Jereth - which is now being replicated by Pirichanthe through Angvasse and Caine to once more stabilize Home.

There's so much myth and speculation surrounding the Deomachy that to me, looking for the parallel in what Caine and Angvasse set up together with the Elven King in creating Pirichanthe more or less seems to be a repetition of what already happened. With the frontiers of time being breached before and after the Deomachy, nothing seems to be able to stop Pirichanthe from reaching back to before the Deomachy and releasing a few first aspects of Caine and Angvasse then and there, as Jantho and Jereth. That would not be a breach of the Truce, either: that was only concluded after the Deomachy. Since it is pre-Monastic history, what's to stop the Monasteries from getting the sex of Angvasse wrong, after all? Nothing. They also failed to establish the Caine/Kosall/Sword of Man link.
The Order of Khryll is Khryll worshippers, not disciples, nor is it founded by Khryll. The monasteries are a slightly different issue, but we've seen that Khryll himself is very comfortable in taking the personification of a woman, and the monasteries are egalitarian.
Caine and Khryl, or Caine and Angvasse, they become two sides of the coin that's Pirichanthe aka stabilization of the gods/Home/Hell basically - as are Jereth and Jantho. Pirichanthe was created to establish control over the dills, but it is also a God that needed the Truce to be able to come into existence....

Finally, His Father's Fist, which refers to Caine once more - is there a reference in there to the severed Hand of Peace, Light and Dark, Protection and Slaughter (of humanity & gods) being the left and right hand of one mediating entity (Pirichanthe), and Jantho and Jereth being inactive for a time until cast back into the world at the end of the Assumption? That alone is hinted at by the very date that Angvasse became Champion of Khryll: Assumption Day, also the (re)birth of Caine/ the Caine fetch.

My head spins.

[Tapper]

 Salt-Man Z, on 30 May 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

The T'Passe thing could be an error that came from shuffling the various scenes around while editing, presumably much like the error in CBK when Caine (on his way to visit Orbek) reflects on Simon Faller a couple chapters before he first hears about the guy.

There's also a bit of a continuity error regarding Ingrid Bergman/ Marade and her trauma - in BoT, she's mentioned as being a scripted love interest who went very willingly to bed with him, multiple times. In CBK we learn they only have sex once (and we know the conditions) and that Marade thereafter cannot enjoy intimacy anymore afer the Black Knife gang rape.

[Abyss]

And Caine was Tyshalle the whole time, right?

[Pig Iron]

 Tapper, on 30 May 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

In addition to what you wrote (perhaps redundantly, AND EFFING SPOILERY):

I'm very certain that the Black Knife God in Return to the Boedecken is already the metaphorical Duncan who has been pierced by the sword, aka: Pirichanthe. This becomes very apparent during a re-read of Caine Black Knife. Secondly, it is my guesstimate that the Champion of Khryll/ kwatcharr of the Black Knives fetch will disappear when the real Caine comes back to Overworld at the back of Faithe's griffon, just like he popped into existence when Hari was abducted from Overworld.

The main question for me is now two-fold: is that 'real' Caine that survived BoT in and by himself already a fetch of a real, deceased Caine (after all, he survived the equivalent of a nuclear blast) or is he the real Caine sent out by Pirichanthe, who reached back in time from being the future Overworld dill guardian that Caine and Angvasse create?
Considering that Overworld ended at the True Assumption of Mael'Koth (or rather, the Truce of the Deomachy ended there), it is not beyond possible that the future Pirichanthe reached back in time and released a first Caine to guarantee its own existence - and apparently, fetches can reach Hell, as seen as by the non-existent Caine talking to little Hari and Duncan in the clinic, so that's no stopping block for the "real" Caine being already dead.

Quote

Jantho is the name for "Dawn". Jereth is "Dusk". Jantho is Khryl, who was originally a resident of an area that worshipped Dal'Kannith Wargod. Jantho got sick of it and started working with Jereth, who may or may not have been his brother. Jereth somehow became an ascendant of slaughter and associated with the Sword of Man. Jereth's nickname of "The Dark Man" is strikingly similar to Caine (Black Knife). Jereth is the one who cut off Jantho/Khryl's hand with finality.

What if it was slightly different? Jantho = Khryl, and as you say, perhaps a human. Or perhaps not.
Caine and Angvasse specifically are both tools of Pirichanthe. They mirror Jantho and Jereth.
Jereth may well be a manifestation of Caine/Kosall, who are metaphores for one another and for slaughter - and, perhaps even more important, for balance. Caine, as he monologues several times, is a leveller. He is destined to murder evil/ power abusers, but everything goes to hell whenever he murders someone who doesn't really deserve it. So if Caine is a manifestation of equality of power and balance of power, then Khryl may be the personification of protection and/or war, and the severing of the Hand of Peace by the Sword may have been done to keep the balance instead of making Khryl overpowering everything else. Perhaps that severing was Jantho and Jereth being withdrawn from home for the duration of the Deomachy, and perhaps their mythical war on the gods was instead Pirichanthe releasing Caine and Khryl/Angvasse fetches against the gods - what better to slaughter gods with than an ever returning number of super power fetches?

So, to get on real shaky ground: Pirichanthe is a balance act, just like Caine and the mythical Khryl.
Pirichanthe can cast out heroes (as defined by the Fist fetch: Angvasse-fetches) and Caine. What if the solution to the Deomachy was, once more, Piritchanthe reaching back in time? Jantho and Jereth being aspects of Pirichanthe? If Pirichanthe casts out Angvasse fetches and Angvasse is the personification of Khryl, what is then to stop us from saying that Khryl himself (or perhaps better: Jantho) was a fetch sent by Pirichanthe? It would explain the mythical brother/non-brother hero/anti hero light/dark protection/murder aspects that surround Jantho and Jereth - which is now being replicated by Pirichanthe through Angvasse and Caine to once more stabilize Home.

There's so much myth and speculation surrounding the Deomachy that to me, looking for the parallel in what Caine and Angvasse set up together with the Elven King in creating Pirichanthe more or less seems to be a repetition of what already happened. With the frontiers of time being breached before and after the Deomachy, nothing seems to be able to stop Pirichanthe from reaching back to before the Deomachy and releasing a few first aspects of Caine and Angvasse then and there, as Jantho and Jereth. That would not be a breach of the Truce, either: that was only concluded after the Deomachy. Since it is pre-Monastic history, what's to stop the Monasteries from getting the sex of Angvasse wrong, after all? Nothing. They also failed to establish the Caine/Kosall/Sword of Man link.
The Order of Khryll is Khryll worshippers, not disciples, nor is it founded by Khryll. The monasteries are a slightly different issue, but we've seen that Khryll himself is very comfortable in taking the personification of a woman, and the monasteries are egalitarian.
Caine and Khryl, or Caine and Angvasse, they become two sides of the coin that's Pirichanthe aka stabilization of the gods/Home/Hell basically - as are Jereth and Jantho. Pirichanthe was created to establish control over the dills, but it is also a God that needed the Truce to be able to come into existence....

Finally, His Father's Fist, which refers to Caine once more - is there a reference in there to the severed Hand of Peace, Light and Dark, Protection and Slaughter (of humanity & gods) being the left and right hand of one mediating entity (Pirichanthe), and Jantho and Jereth being inactive for a time until cast back into the world at the end of the Assumption? That alone is hinted at by the very date that Angvasse became Champion of Khryll: Assumption Day, also the (re)birth of Caine/ the Caine fetch.

My head spins.

Awesome post. The ties to J&J are so strong that it feels pretty much unavoidable. Also, the scenes with Duncan et al HAS to be the very treaty of P in some sense - so that that missing piece is something weve read for sure.

Re Amph's also fantastic post, I took that first chapter not as a dead timeline but as what might very well have been Caine's way in. At some point in the set of all possible timelines he did fight his way up those stairs and made a deal. Everything we read after that is the timeline he was then able to choose/create.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 30 May 2012 - 09:36 PM

[amphibian]

 Tapper, on 30 May 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

There's also a bit of a continuity error regarding Ingrid Bergman/ Marade and her trauma - in BoT, she's mentioned as being a scripted love interest who went very willingly to bed with him, multiple times. In CBK we learn they only have sex once (and we know the conditions) and that Marade thereafter cannot enjoy intimacy anymore afer the Black Knife gang rape.

I was under the impression that Marade did indeed have carnal adventures several times more over the course of her adventures, but the intimacy of the moment in Retreat from the Boedoecken was never captured again and it may very well have been the gang rape that shattered that.

As for the beginning of Caine's Law, it may not be a dead timeline, but it is a timeline that that Caine worked to ensure doesn't happen again. He's killed Tyrkilld, Angvasse, the Pratts are dead, Orbek is dead and many more are not living anymore. In the other timelines that we see, they're alive.

I absolutely agree that Pirichanthe is somehow Duncan imposing balance upon the universe and doing so in an atemporal fashion - which is a ridiculously awesome thing for a father to do, especially in atonement for what he's done.

However, I'm of the belief that the Caine that survives the Assumption is the real Caine - as real as a fetch can possibly be. This fetch is the unwitting Metaphor/Sword of Man and it is this fetch that falls in love with the Horseweitch. This Caine is a fetch, but not one with the self-awareness that the one who spears Duncan with the Sword/visits the clinic possesses. He is less divine and thus more human.

It still boggles my mind that the deal the Khryl's Champion/kwatcharr of the Black Knife Caine fetch made with Pirichanthe in that cave reaches back in time to allow the real, human Caine to survive the Retreat from the Boedoecken, spits out a reasonable facsimile after the Assumption, creates itself by spitting out roving, time-traveling idiot Caine who nearly rearranges time and also drunken Angvasse too. And more.

Is the Elven Nation alive at the end of Caine's Law? I forgot that part or if it was ever answered.

[Salt-Man Z]

 Abyss, on 30 May 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

ummm.... the timeline is not important?

With this series, that's exactly it.

[Tapper]

 amphibian, on 31 May 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

 Tapper, on 30 May 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

There's also a bit of a continuity error regarding Ingrid Bergman/ Marade and her trauma - in BoT, she's mentioned as being a scripted love interest who went very willingly to bed with him, multiple times. In CBK we learn they only have sex once (and we know the conditions) and that Marade thereafter cannot enjoy intimacy anymore afer the Black Knife gang rape.

I was under the impression that Marade did indeed have carnal adventures several times more over the course of her adventures, but the intimacy of the moment in Retreat from the Boedoecken was never captured again and it may very well have been the gang rape that shattered that.

As for the beginning of Caine's Law, it may not be a dead timeline, but it is a timeline that that Caine worked to ensure doesn't happen again. He's killed Tyrkilld, Angvasse, the Pratts are dead, Orbek is dead and many more are not living anymore. In the other timelines that we see, they're alive.

I absolutely agree that Pirichanthe is somehow Duncan imposing balance upon the universe and doing so in an atemporal fashion - which is a ridiculously awesome thing for a father to do, especially in atonement for what he's done.

However, I'm of the belief that the Caine that survives the Assumption is the real Caine - as real as a fetch can possibly be. This fetch is the unwitting Metaphor/Sword of Man and it is this fetch that falls in love with the Horseweitch. This Caine is a fetch, but not one with the self-awareness that the one who spears Duncan with the Sword/visits the clinic possesses. He is less divine and thus more human.

It still boggles my mind that the deal the Khryl's Champion/kwatcharr of the Black Knife Caine fetch made with Pirichanthe in that cave reaches back in time to allow the real, human Caine to survive the Retreat from the Boedoecken, spits out a reasonable facsimile after the Assumption, creates itself by spitting out roving, time-traveling idiot Caine who nearly rearranges time and also drunken Angvasse too. And more.

Is the Elven Nation alive at the end of Caine's Law? I forgot that part or if it was ever answered.

Well, technically, Chris Hansen was their Emperor, and this is said in BoT, too - I doubt there's any genocide after BoT. I do get the impression that the only elves surviving are the ones who left the Mithondionne kingdom, though - I think that one's been exterminated by the virus.

Regarding my Khryl theory, I realised I have to invalidate it, at the very least, the Khryl is a fetch bit. Khryl is a God, not just a fetch - otherwise, there would be no Holy Foreskin nor Khryl's Strength and Love for his worshippers... so if Khryl was a fetch, then he was one who raised himself to godhood, just like Mael'koth managed to do.

It is perhaps possible that Jantho was a Pirichanthe fetch, Khryl was subsequently revered as Jantho-made-god and deified, but it seems that if this is so, then there's a split between the god and the fetch (the god becoming revered and the human dieing/ disappearing after founding the Monasteries)... unless the god-entity then reaches back in time to grant Jantho powers to wield in the Deomachy. Which leads to more headspinning, and I think this is unlikely.

[Abyss]

 Pig Iron, on 30 May 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

...Re Amph's also fantastic post, I took that first chapter not as a dead timeline but as what might very well have been Caine's way in. At some point in the set of all possible timelines he did fight his way up those stairs and made a deal. Everything we read after that is the timeline he was then able to choose/create.

 amphibian, on 31 May 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

...As for the beginning of Caine's Law, it may not be a dead timeline, but it is a timeline that that Caine worked to ensure doesn't happen again. He's killed Tyrkilld, Angvasse, the Pratts are dead, Orbek is dead and many more are not living anymore. In the other timelines that we see, they're alive. ...

That's how i took it. It was the worse possible outcome and one of the things (only one) Caine ref'd every time he asked 'what if you could take back the worse thing you had ever done?'. In theory the rest of the book and possibly the series is Caine working to take back a decision that leads to him killing every frtiend and ally he has to get to that point.

in theory.

Quote

Is the Elven Nation alive at the end of Caine's Law? I forgot that part or if it was ever answered.

Caine's discussions w Chris/Deliann suggests it is, or will be.

 Salt-Man Z, on 31 May 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

 Abyss, on 30 May 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

ummm.... the timeline is not important?

With this series, that's exactly it.

Heh... y'know, it's more like 'the timeline is flexible'.

 Tapper, on 31 May 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

I was under the impression that Marade did indeed have carnal adventures several times more over the course of her adventures, but the intimacy of the moment in Retreat from the Boedoecken was never captured again and it may very well have been the gang rape that shattered that.

That was my take.

And as a related aside, the entire sequence from her refusing to be freed to Caine just fucking imagining her rising up from the rape pile and swinging her chains into entire gangs of ogrilloi remains one of the most amazing bits of 'you don't see it but it's awesome' writing by anyone, ever.

[Abyss]

toldja so.

fuck.

[champ]

Fuck me... what a book and series!

Cannot believe that it has come to an end though - does anyone know if Stover plans to write more in the Caine universe?

Bit of a mindfuckbognuts book but once you click on to whats going on/going down then it gets easier to follow, though this thread helped a great deal afterwards!

Another great Malazan Forum recommend! Top work!

[Salt-Man Z]

 champ, on 25 June 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

does anyone know if Stover plans to write more in the Caine universe?

Matt's said he's got an idea for an Act of Faith trilogy if a publisher will buy it. Doesn't sound like he's too hopeful, but there's always a chance.

[Abyss]

He's also actively involved in the OVERWORLD graphic novel adaptation of the Caine books.
Which, while i reserve judgement, have the potential to be fucking awesome.

[Abyss]

 Briar King, on 27 June 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

Hmm graphic novels could be good I think but I wouldn't want them to be of the books I've already read.

I could be wrong but i think the plan was to retell HEROES DIE and then get into some original work.
Which, with Stover's involvement, could be cool as fuck.

[Salt-Man Z]

The comics won't be adaptations or anything. They're original stories written by Stover himself, set in Overworld and starring Caine, potentially (and presumably) covering some of his early Adventures that we never got to see in the novels.

But the comic is currently stalled out in legal issues at the moment. And Stover himself has pretty much disappeared from the Internet (aside from the occasional writeup for Suvudu) as his blog, Twitter, and Facebook Overworld pages have all vanished.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 27 June 2012 - 04:45 PM

[Abyss]

 Salt-Man Z, on 27 June 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

...the comic is currently stalled out in legal issues at the moment. ...

Linky http://www.kickstart...7a0298dd5451230

Fuck.

The first issue is even finished and they can't do anything with it.

Doublefuck.

[amphibian]

 Salt-Man Z, on 27 June 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

But the comic is currently stalled out in legal issues at the moment. And Stover himself has pretty much disappeared from the Internet (aside from the occasional writeup for Suvudu) as his blog, Twitter, and Facebook Overworld pages have all vanished.

Smart to disappear like this while the legal stuff hashes itself out. Anything even slightly possible to use will be used in that kind of a legal war - it's what we lawyers do...

[polishgenius]

Okay, so I just finished this book and...


Is it just me, or, somewhere between book three and four, and certainly between books two and four, did Stover's worldview take a turn for the less cynical? I mean he still ends it with the 'Earth sucks and I'm going to punch you all till you bleed' rant but Caine's whole attitude is a lot less cynical and the Horse-Witch, with the peace she brings, is a character who could not possibly have existed in the previous three books.

[Abyss]

 polishgenius, on 19 July 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Is it just me, or, somewhere between book three and four, and certainly between books two and four, did Stover's worldview take a turn for the less cynical? I mean he still ends it with the 'Earth sucks and I'm going to punch you all till you bleed' rant but Caine's whole attitude is a lot less cynical

Yes, and that's part of the character's journey. He finds a peace in being a champion of sorts that he never had as an Actor.

Quote

and the Horse-Witch, with the peace she brings, is a character who could not possibly have existed in the previous three books.

Yes, and reflective of the shifting realities of the 4th book that flow back to the first three... when Caine was ready, he found her.

[Tyshalle]

Hi all. Apologies for reviving a thread 3 years later, but this is just about the only forum I've actually found people discussing this book, and it seems like several of you are still around, so I was hoping some of you might be interested in revisiting this and thinking about some stuff. I found much of what was posted here insightful, but there's a few things that don't add up to me.

First of all, a few people have said that there's the real Caine who spends the book on Earth, then the outside-of-time Caine, and then various fetches of him in multiple timelines. However, when I was thinking about the narrative structure of the book, and why certain chapters came after the previous chapters, something stood out to me. Much of the book is in "visions of Fetch-Caines" revealed to Duncan in the outside-of-time dreamland, and as near as I can tell there may have been thousands of potential iterations of these, and the ones revealed in the book are simply the best possible scenario Caine managed to achieve and so those are the ones he's sticking with when they eventually remove the sword from Duncan's chest and timebind all of those scenarios into permanent, unalterable reality. However, usually after these Fetch-vision chapters, it will go back to dreamland so Duncan and company can talk about it. But then, after "Assbitch of the Gods", where Caine goes to see Raithe, we start to get the Horse-Witch chapters. This to me, I think, is sort of an INCEPTION-esque dream-within-a-dream second level of visions. I think that these chapters are what Raithe pulls out of Caine's memory. We get 3 Horse-Witch chapters back-to-back-to-back, before going back to dreamland.

So my first question is, if I'm correct about this, then Raithe is pulling memories out of a Fetch--though presumably the fetch shares memories with the real Caine--but is the Caine in the Horse-Witch chapters also a fetch? I honestly can't figure it out, except for the fact that he goes by Jonathan Fist, which means whether he's a fetch or not, he's likely in a timeline made *after* (whatever that means) the opening chapter, where Caine makes what I think is the original deal with Pirichanthe at the top of the Spire. What makes it weirder, is that even though he refers to himself as Jonathan Fist, until he does the narration only ever refers to him as "the human" or "the man" or whatever. After the first time he introduces himself to Tanner as Jonathan Fist, then the narration does start to refer to him as such, but even then it sometimes says "the man calling himself Jonathan Fist" when referencing him.

My second question, and I have numerous others but they can wait for now, has to do with the previous book, CAINE BLACK KNIFE. In it, Caine refers to himself as Dominic Shade for almost the entire book. However, once he gets to Earth, he tells Faller to call him Jonathan Fist. In CAINE'S LAW, there's a part in the chapter "Horse Time" where Caine has no idea why he'd ever introduce himself to anyone as Dominic Shade, and the Horse Witch tells him that maybe Dominic Shade hadn't made the deal he couldn't get out of yet. This suggests that Dominic Shade from CBK hadn't yet made the deal he couldn't get out of yet, and so should probably be pretty well unaware of what's going on with alternate timelines and Caine fetches and shit. So what happens in CAINE BLACK KNIFE that would then get him to introduce himself as Jonathan Fist on Earth? Furthermore, t'Passe references Jonathan Fist, the Horse-Witch, and the Faltane County War in her chapter of CBK. How would Dominic Shade know about that stuff? There's stuff that goes on in CAINE'S LAW that says Jonathan Fist leaves the Horse-Witch and goes to Purthin's Ford, but it doesn't explicitly say that that Jonathan Fist is the same as Dominic Shade, and just decided to change his name before he got there. So what's going on? Also, once Dominic Shade gets sent to Earth at the end of CBK, he introduces himself to Faller as Jonathan Fist. So what is he doing?

This post has been edited by Tyshalle: 22 November 2016 - 11:40 PM