[Abyss]

No, i don't have the book yet. Fuck.

But it's due out shortly and my sources (yes, i have fucking 'sources') tell me it may even show up a bit early, so i'm putting this thread in place now.

IF YOU HAVE NOT READ STOVER'S HEROES DIE, BLADE OF TYSHALLE AND CAINE BLACK KNIFE, GO TO THE ORIGINAL STOVER THREAD HERE. AND STOP FUCKING READING THIS UNTIL YOU'VE FINISHED CAINE'S LAW OR WANT TO BE FUCKING SPOILERED.



When anyone actually has the book, state so clearly - as in 'I HAVE THE FUCKING BOOK AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT AND KEEP READING YOU ARE FUCKED' - but after that it's balls out for spoilers, no blocks, no fucking about, start raving.

If anyone wants to get into the preview pages on Amazon, this would be the thread to do it, but be clear so those few of us with some thin shread of fucking willpower aren't spoiled.

Also, all fucking posts in this fucking thread are to be made in generally fucking accepted STOVERMODE format fuck me like a chicken pot pie.


- Abyss, fuck.

[Salt-Man Z]

Shouldn't that be a virgin goat pot pie?

[Otataral Toblakai]

dead chicken spirit pie

keep this up and you'll have the PTA all over your behind - one thread wasnt enough, you now have one more to boggle up the poor pathetic children's grey matter.

This post has been edited by Otataral Toblakai: 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM

[JPK]

OT, all of a sudden I have a mini-Caine stuck in my head saying "Fuck the pta. I do what I want."

[Tapper]

FOR THE DUMB COCKSMOKERS WHO DIDN'T READ ABYSS' WARNING, HERE'S IT SPELLED OUT FOR YOU.
I HAVE THE FUCKING BOOK. I'LL BE TALKING ABOUT IT BELOW. SO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILERED, DON'T READ IT, PIG FUCKERS. OR EVEN BETTER, GO BOTHER YOUR BOOKSTORE'S OWNER AND/OR BECOME HIS ASSBITCH UNTIL YOU HAVE YOUR COPY, AS WELL.

Ahem, I hope that was clear enough. Fuck.

Observation 1: Assbitch as Caine's new fave swearword.


IF YOU READ THAT AND DON'T HAVE THE BOOK, THIS IS YOUR LAST FUCKING WARNING: YOU'LL BE SPOILERED. YOU'RE IN THE LAND OF SHUT THE FUCK UP IF YOU DO CATCH A GLIMPSE OF SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE SPOILERS.









I love how he is using quotes from the Soliquoys and dialogues of the previous three books as chapter openers. Awesome. after the ink black despair of BoT and the snuff action that might be the best description of at the least the Boedecken parts of Caine Black Knife, he is very much succesful in alleviating the mood with funny exchanges rather than astute but unconventional one-liners.

"Nicetomeetcha don'twannahave to eetcha."
"Likewise."

"You think I'd start a war without knowing how to end it?"
"You've done it at least three times I know off!"

AND NOW WE ARE REALLY ON TO SPOILERS.

At page 171. I really still not much of a clue of what is going on as Stover goes transdimensional and transtemporal plus metaphorical on us in page 1-150, but it is big. A Twelve Monkeys opener. Caine meets Hari at a defining moment. Sounds almost like a fever dream memory in his cell on earth.

Then holy fuckballs, the vial with essence of the Blind God... No shit, talk about shocking... and high cyborg Duncan. Ouch. The subsequent scene with Raithe that show what new tricks Caine has is a bit of a huh factor. Is that post-infection? Can't be. Then off for a lighter touch - 3 incomprehensible go-forward-in-flashback chapters with the horse witch. The Duncan scenes were very confusing for me, but they make more sense once the Horse witch enters them.

At first I figured out they were Hari's internal reasoning processes, Duncan standing for his father's antropological and classical education, Caine for his own impetuous nature, but then Ayvasse Khavlock makes her entrance and is revealed as Khryl and that illusion is shattered.... I wonder what that means regarding Hari's infection?

So, yeah, I am at a third of the book already, and... it is confusing as fuck. But I bet I'll be done with it by 4 AM or so...... it is really CoCaine again.

[Tapper]

And now I feel fucking stupid. I turn 3 pages and all hell brakes lose. And damn mr. Matt Stover, the mix of the explosion and berserk Angvasse followed by the sex-and-suicide bit.... Holy fuck.

[amphibian]

Ok, uncorking the spoilers.

Best blurb I could think of for this book: Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in time. And he's fuckin' pissed about it too.

The narrative structure is going to throw a ton of people. Shifting time frames between the Caine we saw at the end of CBK, the distant past and alterna-whens on top of shifting the narrative perspective from Caine to Duncan to different versions of Caine and so on will fuck with people. However, roll with it and trust in Stover. He rewards you with one of the best books (and series) I've ever read.

Right now, I really, really, really love this book. It ties all the main narrative threads together in an incredibly well done package that I honestly did not anticipate much. Every time I had a serious question, it was answered eventually. Angvasse mattered. Orbek mattered. Shanna and Ma'elkoth mattered. Kierendal and Deliann mattered. T'passe and Tyrkilld mattered. All these secondary and tertiary characters were indeed in the service of a good thing. And Stover has a way of expressing vigorous and valiant individual stands against injustice and evil in a short, wonderfully offensive phrase.

Although the horse worship is a bit much at times. I also wish we'd gotten to see the Race for the Crown of Dalkannith or the Khuland Horde adventures. Or the Count Faltane deal. We got to see the Retreat from the Boedoken and For the Love of Pallas Ril, so I guess it's a bit of a spoiled fan's wishlist thing.

Quite a few quotables and quite a few superbly theatrical moments. Fuckin' love Stover.

[amphibian]

Without getting into anything too deep here, Stover essentially has one real Caine (the one stuck in the Buke), one outside-of-time Caine (the one dealing with Duncan) and several alterna-Caines going.

As the book goes on, it's easier to figure out which is which, but the awesome never stops.

[Tapper]

Holy crap, is that (a form of) Schrödinger's Cat for Duncan in the form of his wife in a yurt?
And in Poke The Bear, you just notice why it was going to be called His Father's Fist. And y'know, that would have been just as good a title.

And.... I finished it. I probably caught only half, if that, what Stover has done here. Just the top layer. And you know what?
Despite that, this is the best fucking read of 2012. I bet it may get better on a subsequent secondary and tertiary read.


What a book.

[amphibian]

Caine's Law is a better title than His Father's Fist. The book is about more than the Duncan/Caine relationship - although that is crucial to everything else.

It's also kind of fuckin' nuts how Caine can make peace with the father who beat his mother to death and abused him for years as well.

[Abyss]

I've avoided all the upthread spoilers to note that I'm 100 pages in and the next chapter title is ASSBITCH OF THE GODS.
Fuck me but this is unlikely any previous Caine book. And fucking brilliant.

[Salt-Man Z]

What the fuck did I just read?

No, seriously, I finished it a few hours ago (and it was fantastic) and have since spent the last couple skimming back and forth trying to make sense of it all. It's like I can get it this close, and then suddenly I'm back at square one.

Also, does anyone see shades (ha!) of Severian from Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, in particular Urth of the New Sun, in Caine? Heck, Caine's escape from the Donjon in HD is pulled straight out of The Sword of the Lictor, but this time-tripping historical figure fetch stuff really seals the deal.

[busy monster]

I'm having a bitch of a time with the second book in the Acts of Caine. Dude, ten percent of the book done, and it's still dealing with just the pure fucking hell that Hari's life is.

Does it get a bit better? Can he not shit the bed anymore? Because, holy SHIT is the start of book 2 crazydepressinglysouldestroying.

[Salt-Man Z]

The beginning of BoT is a unicorns-and-rainbows picnic compared to the middle third of the book. The ending more than makes up for it, though.

[Tapper]

busy monster, on 10 April 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

I'm having a bitch of a time with the second book in the Acts of Caine. Dude, ten percent of the book done, and it's still dealing with just the pure fucking hell that Hari's life is.

Does it get a bit better? Can he not shit the bed anymore? Because, holy SHIT is the start of book 2 crazydepressinglysouldestroying.

It gets worse. Blade of Tyshalle is depressing, but it is the book that it needs to be to both make the Acts of Caine what they are (which is awesomely amazing), and to make 100% sure that yeah, Stover writes SW novels and Magic: the Gathering novels for a living, but he does literature in his spare time. For kicks.

Also, you're currently in the spoilers for the last (4th) book of the series

[Umback Dredd]

Holy fuckballs. I loved this book but I still have all the questions. If anyone wants to take a stab at answering some of them, that would be wonderful. Spoilers ensue.

1) Who is the god Caine makes his deal with? Is it the blind god? Is it Pirichanthe? Is it some other god altogether?

2) I thought Pirichanthe was a place where a covenant was made, but then I got the impression Pirichanthe was a deity, but I'm not sure what it's a deity of. Any clarification?

3) What exactly happened with the Fey? It sounded like he got them to make the god he made the deal with, so, who's the god they made? It doesn't make sense that they made the blind-god or Pirichanthe, since they already existed.

4) At the end of the book, Caine seems to be channeling some serious god power. Obviously he's got the blind-god power when he's on Earth, but whose Reality power is he channeling when he confronts the ogrilloi? Is it the god of the black knives? Is that the same god as one of the other gods I already mentioned above?

5) Jereth and Jantho. So, the covenant was made between them and Khryl. But, then it turns out that Jantho is Khryl? Was he a god all along? If not, how did he come to represent the gods at this negotiating table? Cuz it sounds to me like JJ were all "man we hate gods, gods suck" and then they started a war with the gods, but then they decided to make a deal with gods, and then instead of talking to the actual gods jereth and jantho just turned to each other and shook hands and were like, "ok, we have a deal!" and then gods would be all, "wait wtf, we didn't have any say in this." So, some clarification about what exactly happened there?

6) Is Caine Jereth? Is he actually the physical embodiment of the sword of man? Or is this all just an extended metaphor?

7) How did these Caine fetches come about? Is this similar to the unhappenings that the gods have been effecting all across history? And who's the Angvasse he's hanging out with in the past? Is she a fetch too? Or are they actually travelling through time?

8) Is the Caine in present day Overworld (during all the action that happens after his arrest in CBK) just like the other floating through time fetches we see in the past, or is this the "real" Caine? I assumed the "real" Caine is the one chained up and chatting with Gayle and Faller on Earth the whole time, but I just want to be clear.

9) And going back to his deal he made, when did he make this deal during his timeline? Is this all part of the same deal he made on the cross in the Boedecken way back when? Or is this some other deal? And if so, when did he find time to make it? Before the events of CBK?

10) In Caine's dreamworld (which reminded me so much of Kruppe and K'rul's dream hangouts) , where does the version of Duncan come from? Is he pulled from the past when he's writing Tales of the First Folk? Is he from some alternate universe altogether?

11) How the balls does Tanner end up on Earth dressed as a Soapie after he's in the chamber with Caine?

12) When did Orbek get to earth and get linked up in a sim chair? Was he a 'smoke hunt' version of himself for the entire events of CBK?

There's probably about a million more questions, but I can't think of them right now. Anyone who can help clear up these details would be super. Thanks!

[Salt-Man Z]

It seems to me that Khryl and "The Dark Man" were human gods that gave up their divinity in order to create the Covenant, then took the names Jereth and Jantho.

Getting Orbek into a simichair and Tanner infiltrated into the Soapies makes sense when you recall Hari's revelation that they (the good guys) have been controlling the dil for some time. What confuses me is how and when this plan gets put into motion. It seems we see a lot of the plan being set up during the post-CBK action, which doesn't make any sense. Where did the post-CBK Caine-fetch come from? (For that matter, where did any of them come from? And which ones exactly were fetches?) Mostly it seems you can rearrange the various chapters to fit into a nice linear story if it wasn't for the small problem of Hari being imprisoned on Earth.

And does anyone have any idea where BELOVED OF GOD (the first section) fits in to anything?

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 10 April 2012 - 05:27 PM

[amphibian]

Have things to do, so will answer the questions with the quickest answers right now and return later tonight for the rest.

Umback Dredd, on 10 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

2) I thought Pirichanthe was a place where a covenant was made, but then I got the impression Pirichanthe was a deity, but I'm not sure what it's a deity of. Any clarification?

People thought it was a place. Turns out a heap big spell was put on the whole happenings there to make people remember things a bit wrongly and then the chain of rumors took over from there. Pirichanthe is the god who Caine told the Fey to create and the same god who Caine made the deal with. The god was worshipped by the Black Knife clan as well, but turned on them to deal with Caine. The blind god is the coalescent desires of humanity and mostly kind of evil, but is subverted by Caine.

Quote

4) At the end of the book, Caine seems to be channeling some serious god power. Obviously he's got the blind-god power when he's on Earth, but whose Reality power is he channeling when he confronts the ogrilloi? Is it the god of the black knives? Is that the same god as one of the other gods I already mentioned above?

Pirichanthe. Yes.

Quote

6) Is Caine Jereth? Is he actually the physical embodiment of the sword of man? Or is this all just an extended metaphor?

Caine is not Jantho or Jereth. He is like them in many ways. Caine is also the physical embodiment of the Sword of Man, which itself was an extended metaphor, as is Caine in that dreamscape.

Quote

11) How the balls does Tanner end up on Earth dressed as a Soapie after he's in the chamber with Caine?

Happens off-screen, but Tanner is among the best operatives the Monastics have. Isn't completely out of the realm of possibility.

Quote

12) When did Orbek get to earth and get linked up in a sim chair? Was he a 'smoke hunt' version of himself for the entire events of CBK?

Orbek was a smoke hunt version of himself for CBK. He and the Black Knife clan found the center of the Smoke Hunt and started subverting what they could of it to their own purposes, while the Smoke Hunt did the same to them in a way.

[busy monster]

Salt-Man Z, on 10 April 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

The beginning of BoT is a unicorns-and-rainbows picnic compared to the middle third of the book. The ending more than makes up for it, though.

Well. I'll get to reading more of it when I'm in a slit my wrists kinda mood. Because wow. It gets worse? Fuck me running.

[amphibian]

busy monster, on 11 April 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

Well. I'll get to reading more of it when I'm in a slit my wrists kinda mood. Because wow. It gets worse? Fuck me running.

Have faith in Caine, for he gets revenge. Oh boy, does he get his fuckin' revenge...