[Tehol the Only]

600 pages into FoH...

Spoiler

Lots of interesting stuff happening, although i'm still liking RoS more. Totally random notes:
Next chapter i'm finally going to see some big-ass battle and i'm quite thrilled about it. (and curious to see if RJ is good at describing very big battle scenes).
Asmodean is awesome. Mat is as well but he's also a douche.
Liandrin's "end" was quite unexpected LOL
Rand's chapters are becoming more and more interesting, you can almost feel the momentum rising.
Nynaeve was probably the most obnoxious female character (evvah) before this book, but now i can't help seeing her more as some sort of dim witted (very so) bully.
Egwene is probably inheriting the obnoxiousness throne anyway (but she gets points for shutting Nynaeve up, couldn't stop laughing during that scene)... and the Amyrrlin seat as well i guess?
I'm starting to like Moiraine (meaning she'll probably die soon) since her oath to Rand.
Next time i read "Men!" i'm gonna cry.
I still don't understand why is everyone leaving potential threats alive, unharmed and free to walk around.
Overall a great book, but it feels like it hasn't really picked up yet.

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 10 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

[Defiance]

I really need to get my ass in gear and finish up The Fires of Heaven. About 2/3 of the way through right now. Things have definitely got more interesting over the last 200 pages. Some thoughts:

Spoiler

I may be in the minority, but I really like Nynaeve. I know a lot of people point to her as an example of what is wrong with Jordan's female characters, which is arguably true, but for her character it works. What I mean is that her anger and stubbornness actually work. In the context of her character, they make absolute sense. However, the same traits that make her so enjoyable for me really make me dislike a lot of the other female characters. Out of all of the leads, Egwene is probably my least favorite. I can't quite put a finger on one specific reason, but I really don't like her.

It seems like Rand is taking the world starting in the east and working his way west. What I mean by this is that he "owns" the Aiel waste and rules Tear, and now is going to be gaining Cairhein's support. I'm sure Shienar will support him as well. This means he has the three countries directly west of the Dragonwall under his control. Also, I can see him moving against Illian (Sammael) and Caemlyn (Rahvin) in the near future, which just continues his expansion from the east.

Rand gets kinky with Aviendha! And he didn't even wear protection, shame on him.

Birgitte getting ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod is pretty crazy. Wonder what this will portend for her.

Moghedien makes classic villain mistake number 1: never let your enemies get away when you can kill them.

Padan Fain seems like a mortal incarnation of chaos. Eagerly awaiting to see what goes on with him in the future.

And no major twists with Siuan and company, although it's cool that Gareth Bryne is going to lead their army.

Edit:

Just got through the first major battle. Thoughts:

Spoiler

That was...disappointing to say the least. The Cairhein battle operated on a "tell" rather than "show" basis. I'm not someone who believes that everything has to be shown to be good, but there is definitely an effective balance that authors can reach. Here, though, everything is simply told to us. Mat killed Couladin. Great, can't say that's cool because we didn't get to see it. Mat is effectively leading this group of Tairen and Cairheinin soldiers. Great, don't care, because we didn't even get to see a single battle, just the start and the aftermath. Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha are calling down lightning and such with the Power. Not interesting because we don't even get to see the effects of this up close.

Despite the fact that a major battle just happened, I never felt engaged with it. It feels like I watched it at a distance, almost like Rand did up on the platform 5 miles from the city. This would have been okay for Rand's parts given his distance, but Jordan really missed his chance with Mat. We didn't need to see every battle Mat led, but the fact that the whole thing with Couladin was just briefly recounted was stupid. I would have loved to read about Mat and his people getting in the heat of things.

There's still a fair chunk of the book left, but so far I think this book has only been good rather than great. I'd rank it ahead of The Eye of the World, but behind all of the rest.

Here's to hoping that the last 150 pages give me a good kick in the teeth and turn things around.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 11 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

[Tehol the Only]

I can only quote everything you said Def ....

Spoiler

i was especting lots of fireworks in the 2nd half of the book but i must say i got quite the opposite..... after all that buildup the battle itself was quite.. sterile.. to say the least. I was far more engaged by minor events like the encounter with the seanchan and such.
It doesn't help that a huge amount of terribly slow (and i must say rather pointless, though the opinion may be biased ) Elayne/Nynaeve chapters followed right after.... Also is it me or there's an entire subplot focused on general bitchiness?
Oh well... i'll just force my way through and hope for more good stuff in the next chapters (and in Lord of Chaos)

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 11 January 2013 - 08:00 PM

[Use Of Weapons]

Defiance, on 10 January 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Spoiler

That was...disappointing to say the least. The Cairhein battle operated on a "tell" rather than "show" basis. I'm not someone who believes that everything has to be shown to be good, but there is definitely an effective balance that authors can reach. Here, though, everything is simply told to us. Mat killed Couladin. Great, can't say that's cool because we didn't get to see it. Mat is effectively leading this group of Tairen and Cairheinin soldiers. Great, don't care, because we didn't even get to see a single battle, just the start and the aftermath. Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha are calling down lightning and such with the Power. Not interesting because we don't even get to see the effects of this up close.

Spoiler

We see Mat kill Couladin onscreen. He's just not named, as Mat doesn't recognise him. But the reader can infer that the specific Aiel that Mat kills who he finds a tough fight is Couladin. At least, that's the inference I drew, and I think it's been confirmed as such.

This post has been edited by Use Of Weapons: 11 January 2013 - 11:26 PM

[Terez]

Actually,

Spoiler

You don't see Mat kill Couladin. You just see when Mat's scouts find his group, and Mat tells them to start yelling "Protect the Dragon Reborn!" or some such. Then it cuts, and after the battle you get Mat chilling while a bunch of Aiel dance around a pole with Couladin's head on it, and Mat thinks he doesn't know who cut off his head, and something like Light, but the man had been good!

[Defiance]

What Terez said.

About 100 pages left now. I really want to finish the book, but the urge to take a break has overwhelmed me. Largely because:

Spoiler

The fucking bitchfest between Elayne and Nynaeve. Seriously, what the fuck? I don't think there's a single chapter featuring the two of them where they're not at each other's throats. I actually liked Elayne until this book, but now she's plummeted. Especially her stuff about wanting to bond Rand regardless of how he would feel about it - that's fucked up.

I can understand that Jordan wanted to portray the fact that the two women had been cooped up together for a bit too long, but I swear half of each chapter is devoted to them either bitching at each other or thinking about how they're going to bitch at each other. It's a real shame and it's making me desire a Thom or Juilin point of view chapter. I like Thom and I really like Juilin (I'm hoping he sticks around as a prominently-featured side character, he's possibly my favorite male character at this point), so reading about them would be vastly more entertaining and worthwhile.

It's funny - the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that Jordan's strength lies in his non-PoV characters. That's not to say that I don't enjoy some of the PoV characters - Rand, Mat, and Perrin are all great - but many of his side characters come off as a lot stronger/most interesting. I think this is because we're not constantly in their head, hearing the same thoughts over and over. Yes, I fucking get that Mat wants to leave Rand but his heart of gold is making him stay. Yes, Rand, for the hundredth time I know you're wary about being used. Perrin, you're great and all but nobody cares that you don't want to be a lord. Once, twice, maybe even three times was enough. Thanks, Nynaeve/Elayne/Egwene, you're right, everyone else is wrong, men are stupid, and when they do what you want them to they're too assuming, but when they don't do what you want them too they're wool-headed sheepherders. These repetitious descriptions aren't enough to kill my enjoyment, but they're more than a minor annoyance.

I'm not sure if Jordan thought his readers were stupid or if he just had a hard-on for telling us what we already know. His wife could have certainly done a better job editing - I can't say for sure, but I think each book could have been slimmed down by 50-100 pages by removing needless repetition.

/end rant

Edit: To do a little more justice to the book...

The menagerie stuff is fun. The stuff between Masema and Galad and how that ended up was great, especially because I didn't see it coming. Valan Luca was a good character - yet another example of a non-PoV side character that I really liked. His infatuation with Nynaeve was great, and I feel a little sorry for him that he couldn't get her (seriously, I would have loved to read a short spin-off where Nynaeve gives up on Lan and decides to stick with Luca). I'm also eager to see what Rand's plans for Cairhein are - while he's certainly gaining more allies, things aren't the greatest because his allies hold allegiance to him, not to each other (and even the allegiance to him is often tentative).

This post has been edited by Defiance: 12 January 2013 - 06:35 AM

[Tehol the Only]

Quote

These repetitious descriptions aren't enough to kill my enjoyment, but they're more than a minor annoyance.

Couldn't say it better ... definitely the books could have been way shorter (and a hell of a lot better paced) by removing some of the repetitions.
But still i'm enjoying it enough to go on regardless

100- pages left too (after this i'll take a little break with Grave peril before starting LoC)

[Tehol the Only]

Spoiler

ok, so Moiraine and Lanfear both disappeared inside the ter'angreal in a flash of light, and immediately everyone dismisses them both as dead; the ter'angreal itself is simply left there sprouting lightnings without anyone standing guard in case something actually manages to get out...

but... but WHY?

ok so Lan is bonded with Moiraine and knows when she dies (though the bond may not work between worlds, who knows)... but how can them all consider Lanfear as good as dead? they don't even wonder about it, they seemingly know for a certainty!!
Both Mat and RAnd know the door simply leads to another world but neither of them doubts for even an instant that both women died... (Lanfear may actually come back stronger if she concludes a covenant with the men-foxes-things)

this is leaving me.... perplexed.... am i missing something?

[Eddie Dean]

It is meant to be confusing. You have a lot of reading to go before you get answers.

[Tehol the Only]

Spoiler

uh... maybe i didn't explain myself very well... i'm not concerned about the lack of answers... but rather about the lack of questions.... i mean... nobody says "hey maybe Lanfear is alive in there, we should guard it" .. as soon as they disappear, everyone is absolutely sure they're both dead..

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

What's there to guard?

Spoiler

If I'm not mistaken, the doorway ter'angreal melted itself and was the only way in or out of that world that anyone knows of. Plus, Lan confirms the severing of his bond with Moiraine, so if she's dead, is it not reasonable to assume that Lanfear died with her? Even so, my point really being that if she were alive, with the doorway being destroyed, how could she get out anyway?

This post has been edited by Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast: 12 January 2013 - 06:34 PM

[Tehol the Only]

There! thanks!!! i completely missed the melting part!! i even read the whole scene three times in a row to try and figure it out but my brain seemingly refused to acknowledge it.... now it makes more sense!

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

Most welcome.

[Captain Beardface]

I made it straight through to Book 7 A Crown of Swords before I needed a break... that was about six months ago and I haven't gone back... I may start up again

[Defiance]

Finished The Fires of Heaven.

Spoiler

That was a solid ending. I still didn't like it as much as The Dragon Reborn or The Shadow Rising, mainly for the reasons I outlined above (too many bitch women chapters and the big battle at Cairhein was extremely disappointing). However, the climax of the book was very well done - I think Jordan does a lot better with these smaller, more personal battles than with large ones. Nynaeve getting the upper hand on Moghedien was great, and I think I've deduced who she is (the woman from the boat who practiced herbs and had the two kids that didn't even acknowledge her as their mother...her name slips my mind, but I think it started with an "M").

Rand vs. Rahvin was good fun, especially with the internal struggle within Rand and his fury over the deaths of his friends.

Asmodean is gone. Sadness. Sure, his PoV at the end told us he hadn't really gone over to the Light, but he was an interesting guy. No clue who killed him, but it has to be one of the remaining Forsaken. Semirhage, Graendal, and Sammael seem like they're on the top of the list, although I suppose there is still Damandred and one other that hasn't been named yet who are possibilities.

Moiraine and Lanfear both out of the picture. Moiraine's death was obviously forecast so it doesn't come as a surprise, but it still hurts. Then again, I'm not convinced she's dead. The doorway just leads to the land of the Eelfin (not sure if spelling is right, name has only been mentioned once in the series so far), so she and Lanfear could just be trapped in another dimension, and somehow the Power + ter'angreal severed her link with Lan. There's that weird metal tower that Perrin saw in the first book and in his dreams that leads to those realms, so maybe someone will be able to bring her back or she'll find a way back herself at some point. Or she could truly be dead, which would be pretty interesting since it would be the first major character death in the books.

In all, that makes three Forsaken down in one book. Jordan better stop killing them off so quickly otherwise there will be none left for the Last Battle. Assuming that the ones not killed with Balefire don't just get woven back into the pattern again.

Balefire is fucking overpowered. I knew that Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean were going to come back because of it (no way they would be killed off at that point, especially Mat), but it still speaks volumes about its power. I'm really hoping there's a point in the series where Rand/one of the good guys uses it and it has major repercussions because it fucks up the timeline so much.

Anyway, I think I'm going to take a break from the main series and breeze through New Spring to get it out of the way.

[Defiance]

One thing I've forgot to bring up that has really destroyed my immersion with the series:

EVERYONE SPEAKS THE SAME DAMN LANGUAGE!

From Arad Doman to Tear, same language. I'm not sure how big the Wheel of Time world from the ocean to the Spine of the World is, but it seems really weird that there's not even a small amount of language diversity there (beyond a handful of words for each culture).

The Seanchan, who have been across the sea for one thousand years with no contact, speak the common tongue. Sure, their speech is slurred, but every one that has been encountered so far has spoken the common tongue and not a hint of anything else!

The Aiel, who have been in the Waste since just after the Breaking of the World, and have only come over the Dragonwall twice in memory before the beginning of the series, speak the common tongue. I could understand them sharing a little bit of language, something like a trader tongue, since trade across the silk road was allowed for awhile.

Sure, there's the Old Tongue, but it's basically this world's Latin. Many people have been schooled in it and have studied it a little bit, but nobody actually uses it for regular communication.

And the worst part?

The Forsaken. Imprisoned for three thousand years. Three fucking thousand years, and they're just coming out and using the common speech with no problem? The nature of language hasn't even changed a bit? I'd expect at the very least they'd sound like 1500's Englishmen trying to communicate with a modern-day Englishman. Possible, but there would be a ton of differences.

But them speaking the common tongue wouldn't even make sense. Why?


Because apparently, at least as far as I can reason out, the old tongue was used in the time of Manetheren, circa 2000 years ago. Unless the old tongue was just used for shits and giggles back then (seems unlikely), that means that current speech has evolved significantly from it in the past 2000 years. I'd say that that is plausible, but with the Aiel being over the Dragonwall already it makes no real sense how their language developed in the exact some way as that of the people on the western side of it. So anyway, we have the Forsaken who, by rights should be speaking the old tongue (or something even more ancient) coming out of being imprisoned for 3000 years and they're instantly able to speak the common tongue. Is there a Rosetta Stone: Darkfriend Edition floating around that we haven't heard about, or is this just laziness on Jordan's part because it's much easier (and lazier) to make everyone speak the same language so that you don't have any communication issues?

[Terez]

Defiance, on 15 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

One thing I've forgot to bring up that has really destroyed my immersion with the series:

EVERYONE SPEAKS THE SAME DAMN LANGUAGE!

There are some decent answers for most of this. RJ always argued that the printing press has a way of slowing the evolution of language to a crawl, and there is some truth to that. The printing press survived the Breaking, and Luthair et al. brought the common tongue to the Seanchan continent and imposed it on the natives as a culture-suppression tactic. The Aiel picked up the common tongue from interactions with the Ogier, the peddlers/gleemen, and books. And later the Cairhienin. The Sharans have their own languages, but know the common tongue from trade with the Aiel and the Sea Folk. The Sea Folk know the common tongue from trade with Randland. The arguments get progressively weaker, though. His explanation for the Forsaken is that 1) the common tongue is derived from the Old Tongue and the relation is similar to closely-related languages of our world, e.g. the Romantic languages or the Scandinavian languages, and 2) the books are actually translated into English for you (ha ha) so we can't actually observe how close the languages are.

Languages are not RJ's strong point, but he did make an effort to justify his laziness here. And tried to make up for it in other ways...

This post has been edited by Terez: 17 January 2013 - 12:34 AM

[Tehol the Only]

Terez, on 17 January 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

Languages are not RJ's strong point, but he did make an effort to justify his laziness here. And tried to make up for it in other ways...

Completely agree with you here... definitely Languages are not the series strong point, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.



400 pages into Lord of chaos

Spoiler

VERY strong first third, i hope it keeps going like this till the end.
So many moments i was looking forward to.
Aes Sedai are starting to realize that Rand CAN kick their asses blindfolded. At least Verin and Alanna.
Alanna bonded Rand... great WTF moment.
Mazrim Taim. Mazrim Taim working for RAnd. Mazrim Taim raising a f*ckin army of man-channelers for Rand. Best. Thing. In. The. Series. So. Far.
Every single chapter held great moments... this is quickly becoming my favorite Wot book so far... and i'm not even halfway in!

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 18 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

[Terez]

Tehol the Only, on 18 January 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

VERY strong first third, i hope it keeps going like this till the end.
...
Every single chapter held great moments... this is quickly becoming my favorite Wot book so far... and i'm not even halfway in!

This is one of the fan favorites....and mostly because of the last third or so of the book.

[Tehol the Only]

Why that's great news! I'm even starting to like nynaeve (which is saying something)

If i absolutely have to complain about something

Spoiler

I was hoping for RJ to abandon the Evil-bubbles thing.... It's too random, of little importance and often just plain silly (murderous flying chamber pots... really Robert? REALLY?).
I fear he'll start to use them to resolve situations in some way or something like that, i hope i'm wrong though.