[Maark Abbott]

Is this your ding dong the witch is dead moment

[Tiste Simeon]

worry, on 30 November 2023 - 02:42 AM, said:

Hell yeah~

I'll admit to not knowing much about the guy but the word "war crimes" often comes up when people are talking about him. Media here is carefully going with a "he was divisive" line, probably because the likes of Boris Johnson were seemingly fans of his.

Is there a good article or website that breaks down what he actually did and why he's so reviled, except of course by the kind of people you don't want in your corner...

[amphibian]

Tiste Simeon, on 30 November 2023 - 01:36 PM, said:

worry, on 30 November 2023 - 02:42 AM, said:

Hell yeah~

I'll admit to not knowing much about the guy but the word "war crimes" often comes up when people are talking about him. Media here is carefully going with a "he was divisive" line, probably because the likes of Boris Johnson were seemingly fans of his.

Is there a good article or website that breaks down what he actually did and why he's so reviled, except of course by the kind of people you don't want in your corner...

The short summary is this:

Kissinger increased the aggressive and murderous nature of the Vietnam War as the co-runner of the war alongside Nixon. Instead of truly attempting to achieve peace, he helped prolong the Vietnam War and even ordered specific bombings of civilians in Cambodia, which killed probably 100k+ civilians and incredibly few North Vietnamese combatants. The Cambodian bombings were held secret from the US public for a long time, to the point of burning documents used to do the bombings. He then lied to Congress and the public for years and then decades about what exactly he was doing. He also helped facilitate genocides in Cambodia, East Timor, and Bangladesh, accelerated civil wars in southern Africa and supported coups and death squads throughout Latin America.

This article from 2015 covers most of a summary: https://www.salon.co...legacy_partner/

The guy wanted lots of people dead to achieve some state of the world that only he saw.

[Tiste Simeon]

Crikey! No wonder the American elite love him!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Billed as the "Red State vs. Blue State Debate" by Fox News moderator Sean Hannity, DeSantis was thoroughly trounced at various points by California Gov. Gavin Newsom, who, unlike DeSantis, is not running for president [yet---there's still a chance he may enter the Democratic primary...].

[...] Newsom often seemed bewildered at just how clumsy the DeSantis performance turned out [...]

The Florida governor also made his fair share of awkward faces during the split-screen portions of the debate, a recurring problem [...]

"In the history of American politics," longtime GOP strategist [...] tweeted at the end of the night, "@RonDeSantis will go down as the chump who not only lost every debate in his race, but lost to a guy who isn't even in the race. That's talent."

DeSantis' Campaign May Have Flunked Its Final Test After Fox News Debate (thedailybeast.com)

Quote

Fox News Helped Ron DeSantis As Much As It Could in His Debate With Gavin Newsom. It Wasn't Enough.

[...] it was easy to understand why DeSantis' handlers, and perhaps some Fox News executives, thought the DeSantis-Newsom debate should have been winnable for the Florida governor. Sure, he has proved horribly overmatched sharing the debate stage with the middling field of Republican presidential aspirants, being pressed ever so slightly on his record and asked to differentiate himself politically. Peel away the multipronged opposition, tuck in some softball questioning, relieve him of the live audience: Surely DeSantis would be better able to flex some muscle. But after 90 minutes of sort of answering Hannity's prompts, the debate managed to raise only two great queries: Why would Ron DeSantis agree to this? [...]

[...] every time he speaks he somehow manages to come off as even more grating. Another problem is that every time he doesn't speak, he attempts that signature near-smile grimace [...]

[...] the bias of the questioning was so over the top that it was hard for anyone to keep a straight face. [...] Every single question was some derivative of Ron, why is Florida so great? Why is California so terrible? Please refer to the fact sheet we've worked up for you.

[...] " 'It's almost like an out-of-body experience,' " [DeSantis] claimed that Floridians leaving California had told him about buying toothpaste in the Sunshine State.

Ron DeSantis vs. Gavin Newsom debate: Sean Hannity's Fox News show probably should have gone better for Ron. (slate.com)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 01 December 2023 - 08:58 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Trump accidentally admitted what his critics have long accused him of at an Iowa rally [...] telling the crowd: "We've been waging an all-out war on American democracy."

[...]

Trump, throughout the rally, argued that he was on a "righteous crusade" in support of democracy while his team handed out "BIDEN ATTACKS DEMOCRACY" signs to rally-goers.

[...] vowing for the eighth year in a row to repeal Obamacare, and warning that the left is coming to take away voters' dishwashers.

[...] "I saved Obamacare when we got John McCain's negative vote, you know he voted against it. He said 'uhhhhhh thumbs downnn.' [...]" [...] making a crude impression of McCain, who was battling brain cancer at the time.

[...] sounding off on Senator Mitch McConnell, who was "not good, not good," and Paul Ryan, who "was like this real a real jerk a real fool like a stupid fool."

Donald Trump Mocks McCain and Says Biden is a Billionaire in Off The Rails Speech (thedailybeast.com)

Quote

Trump Could Legally Use Military as Domestic Law Enforcers

[Trump's] pledge to use the military within our borders could be fully legal thanks to the vague language of the Insurrection Act.

[...] the current version of the law contains broad language that a president unconcerned about traditional political and normative restraints on executive power could try to exploit in the absence of an actual rebellion or insurrection.

[...] the Supreme Court concluded that if the president abuses the power granted by the Insurrection Act, the remedies would be found in the "constitution itself… the frequency of elections, and the watchfulness of the representatives of the nation… to guard against usurpation or wanton tyranny."

Trump Could Legally Use U.S. Military as Domestic Law Enforcers (thedailybeast.com)

lol

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

House Speaker Mike Johnson thanked the event organizers for kicking reporters out. “I’ll tell you a secret since the media’s not here,” he promised them. (It’s unclear if Johnson knew that the event’s organizer would post a video of the gala [...]

That secret was a series of conversations he’d had with God in the lead-up to the speaker vote that anointed him:

[...] And the Lord told me very clearly to prepare. OK, prepare for what? I don’t know. “We’re coming to a Red Sea moment.” “What does that mean, Lord?”

I started praying more about that. And the Lord began to wake me up through this three-week process we were in, in the middle of the night, and to speak to me.

[...] But despite Johnson’s shock at being chosen to lead his people, he concluded that God knew best: “Only God saw the path through the roiling sea,” [...]

[...] The group has the express mission of churning out model legislation and connecting legislators at all levels of government to pass bills based on “biblical principles” in order to “save the nation,” as Rapert said at the gala.

[...] Johnson, the primary intellectual driver behind [Trump's] “Stop the Steal” movement

House Speaker Mike Johnson told a Christian nationalist event that God had prepared him to be Moses. (slate.com)

So he'll be Moses parting the red sea... for Trump?

... to cross the Rubicon (and the nation---then maybe the world, if he's feeling peppy (and Putin beckons)?)...

[Lady Bliss]

Ummmm delusions of grandeur much? The last time I knew someone that thought they were actually talking to God they ended up in a psyche ward. Just saying.

This post has been edited by Lady Bliss: 09 December 2023 - 01:15 AM

[Tsundoku]

Lady Bliss, on 08 December 2023 - 03:17 PM, said:

Ummmm delusions of grandeur much? The last time I knew someone that thought they were actually talking to Hod they ended up in a psyche ward. Just saying.

Should be mandatory as soon as the words "God spoke to me ..." followed by very specific instructions are out of someone's mouth. Boom, straight to secure psych ward for "evaluation".

Because afaik nothing good has ever followed those words. It's never "God spoke to me and ... I'm helping the homeless".
No, it's usually "God spoke to me and ... we must (oppress the shit out of someone who doesn't deserve it)".

It's less when God gives someone a sort of gentle nudge "I feel God wants me to ...". Nope, it's when they hear a voice and specific words that you know something bonkers is going to follow. Because let's face it, hearing voices is generally not a good sign. So - either an extremely narcissistic bald-faced liar (hmmm, remind you of anyone else of his side of the fence?), or straight out crazy. Or all of the above.
Because assuming God is real, pretty sure a lawyer/politician is one of the last people who will get a personal greeting and instructions. More likely to be a message from the "other guy".

But hey, you never know what instrument the big cheese might decide to use. Mysterious ways and all that. It's just incredibly unlikely though.

TL;DR - People talking to God is fine. I start worrying when God starts talking back.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 08 December 2023 - 10:18 PM

[Lady Bliss]

I had no idea that the US could sink any lower until I saw the news tonight. We are causing irreparable damage with the Middle East and our Arab and Muslim citizens.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Tsundoku, on 08 December 2023 - 08:01 PM, said:

Lady Bliss, on 08 December 2023 - 03:17 PM, said:

Ummmm delusions of grandeur much? The last time I knew someone that thought they were actually talking to Hod they ended up in a psyche ward. Just saying.

Should be mandatory as soon as the words "God spoke to me ..." followed by very specific instructions are out of someone's mouth. Boom, straight to secure psych ward for "evaluation".

Because afaik nothing good has ever followed those words. It's never "God spoke to me and ... I'm helping the homeless".
No, it's usually "God spoke to me and ... we must (oppress the shit out of someone who doesn't deserve it)".

It's less when God gives someone a sort of gentle nudge "I feel God wants me to ...". Nope, it's when they hear a voice and specific words that you know something bonkers is going to follow. Because let's face it, hearing voices is generally not a good sign. So - either an extremely narcissistic bald-faced liar (hmmm, remind you of anyone else of his side of the fence?), or straight out crazy. Or all of the above.
Because assuming God is real, pretty sure a lawyer/politician is one of the last people who will get a personal greeting and instructions. More likely to be a message from the "other guy".

But hey, you never know what instrument the big cheese might decide to use. Mysterious ways and all that. It's just incredibly unlikely though.

TL;DR - People talking to God is fine. I start worrying when God starts talking back.

You would be surprised at how commonplace it is in the US for people to think God speaks to them through prayer, signs, or feelings. Christianity is a powerful drug — not even once.

Within the past month, I have socialized with 3 separate people who are high-functioning and normal, but also are true believers in mainstream Christianity. And they all make decisions about their lives based on God nudging/speaking to them during regular prayer.

One of them even mentioned to me that a couple they are friendly with are uprooting their family and moving cross-country to another state because both parents in that family felt like God was calling them to that state. What was God calling them to do there? They don't know — they'll find out when they get there. Do they want to move? No, they are very sad about it. But, they're doing it anyway because God.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 09 December 2023 - 06:25 PM

[amphibian]

What state are they moving to?

If it's Texas or Florida, it's because of the appeal of low or no personal taxes.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

amphibian, on 09 December 2023 - 07:46 PM, said:

What state are they moving to?

If it's Texas or Florida, it's because of the appeal of low or no personal taxes.

It's Texas, but I seriously doubt it's about the taxes. These people are true believers.

(Also, I just realized that Texas and Taxes have the same letters.)

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 09 December 2023 - 11:30 PM

[Tsundoku]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 09 December 2023 - 11:29 PM, said:

amphibian, on 09 December 2023 - 07:46 PM, said:

What state are they moving to?

If it's Texas or Florida, it's because of the appeal of low or no personal taxes.

It's Texas, but I seriously doubt it's about the taxes. These people are true believers.

(Also, I just realized that Texas and Taxes have the same letters.)

Hence the phrase "death and Texas".

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

When they pray and ask Go* for guidance, collectively or individually, in many cases they seem to be going into a trance and using hypnotic suggestion to prompt their brains to spontaneously imagine voices and visions (etc.). Dissociating from oneself and towards openness to truth, goodness, and unconscious cognitive processes (which can be more efficient, operating massively in parallel for example, as well as faster even when not acting in parallel, depending on what cognitive processes have been learned to the point of automaticity (in my case that would include things like calculus)) can be a good thing... provided:

1. one understands that it's coming from their own brain, not Go* or the actual incarnation of objective truth and goodness; just one's attempt to be an open vessel for the incarnation of truth and goodness, even if that means obliterating the preconceptions we'd clung to.

2. Partly as a consequence of one, it is not presumed infallible, and so is subjected to critique, research into the perspectives of others, etc.

Unfortunately the delusional certainty provided by the belief that one's experiences of divine inspiration are actually divine inspiration may provide them with social advantages, especially among other believers. (The ultimate Confidence Man, Go*.)

Personally I experience divine inspiration on a regular basis in the form of songs and visions but they're not hallucinations (unless you count some split second misreadings of words---I once saw a random billboard that for a moment seemed to say 'God's Kingdom' when it was actually a sign advertising hoagies) and I know they're products of my brain (aspiring towards truth, beauty, and the Good, perhaps, and aspiring to channel them, but aside from the immediate flow of qualia qua qualia almost certainly not ἄγγελοi of omniscient omnibenevolent omnipotence).

For example, the opening paragraphs of my college admissions essay came to me as an angelic voice, which I liked to fancy was Sappho, the Tenth Muse, singing from the realm of Ideas; but I didn't literally believe that.

In the case of the people who believe Go* told them to move, I imagine they're probably sincere, but their brains have figured out they want lower taxes or something, and divine inspiration gives them an excuse to

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 10 December 2023 - 03:08 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Ok so I've been debating whether to comment on this these past couple of days. I wasn't sure I could be bothered to get involved in this part of the discussion but it's been sitting on my mind so I figured why not.

You guys know me, mostly. I'm friends with some of you IRL as a result of this forum so I'm hoping you'll t take that into account. And please know I am not offended by any of the preceding posts. I get it's a weird subject and especially for the Americans among us where this is a much bigger issue...

I believe in God. I read the bible and pray daily. I go to church. I speak to God and believe God speaks to me. This, my faith, is a huge part of who I am, of how I live and how I hope to bring up my children. It's as serious as I can get about anything to be honest.

I, as a Christian, believe in the words and the teachings of Christ. Jesus was someone who spoke truth to power, who fought against the religious authorities in an intellectual and spiritual way. He championed the low, the poor and the needy. Repeatedly. He had an awful lot to say about the rich, especially those who hoarded wealth and power and then hypocritically spoke like they had the higher authority and ethical high ground.

Sounding familiar?

He often spoke out and defended those who society deemed "unfit" or "outcast" or "unworthy." He did not schmooze with the rich and powerful and the times he is recorded as dining with them, he was unafraid in pointing out their faults and hypocrisy. He is, essentially, the conservatives worst nightmare.

Ooh and he never said a single thing about gay people!

When I read the nonsense that the folk at the GOP spew out it annoys me for so many reasons, not least that they have got it so completely and utterly wrong. So when some smug fascist who represents something almost anathema to the teaching they claim to follow says "God spoke to me and he said this..." I cringe.

Because as I said, I do believe God speaks. Heck, I am one of those who moved a long way because I believe it is what God wanted me to do. I'm willing to talk further on that if you want but basically it wasn't something that makes sense in any natural way. It cost us a heck of a lot and living here is way more expensive than where we used to live not to mention inconvenient to get to and from. But we believed I it was part of a divine will and we have seen blessings as a result.

I'm probably rambling a lot right now so I'll shut up. As I said I have not taken any offence from anything said before I just wanted to provide a slightly different POV (hopefully one not too insane sounding) I get that you guys don't believe in God and you probably think I'm just as nuts as the other guys. Or that this is some kind of No True Scotsman fallacy.

But the Jesus I follow is very different to Republican Jesus. If I was running for office I would not hide my faith but equally I would not rant about it in place of real practical things I'd want to do if I was elected.

In my work place now I don't hide who I am but I don't spend the whole time trying to force everyone else to change who they are. Jesus never did that. He just loved people in a radical non conformist way and they wanted to know more.

Anyway I've said my piece thanks to you guys if you actually read all that haha

[amphibian]

The traditions of the general British Christian paths are quite a bit different from the often apocalyptic or birthright-ism or redeeming people from sin forcibly American variants.

The actual Bible words are chopped up and stuck into a stew of intolerance, greed, and using the cover of religion to do horrendous things to people.

Tiste Simeon, you moved and you found a job still in public service. You've built a family that does good for others and does it quietly.

The people moving to Texas and Florida are mostly doing it loudly and to cover up things they are having trouble with where they are now. The tax thing is both a personal dodge and a way to ensure there's more separation between the rich and the poor (in states with no personal taxes, the sale taxes go up and the rich can travel to buy cheaper things, plus afford more sales tax and/or personal luxury while the poor just pay more and have to make do with less).

The constant reveals of child abuse and sex pests among evangelical cults (and the Catholic Church) are a sign that this all really, really doesn't work for anyone who isn't a usually white male perched at the top of the order.

The cult documentaries are warning us against those perversions of community, love, and building a better world for generations to come after us. They're not warning us against people like you, Tiste Simeon.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 December 2023 - 10:24 PM

[Cyphon]

The adage goes, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

And so I would make distinctions between faith and organised religion. The latter providing the power to make absolute value judgements leading to power and I've probably made my unsubtle point.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Tiste Simeon, on 10 December 2023 - 09:48 PM, said:

Ok so I've been debating whether to comment on this these past couple of days. I wasn't sure I could be bothered to get involved in this part of the discussion but it's been sitting on my mind so I figured why not.

You guys know me, mostly. I'm friends with some of you IRL as a result of this forum so I'm hoping you'll t take that into account. And please know I am not offended by any of the preceding posts. I get it's a weird subject and especially for the Americans among us where this is a much bigger issue...

I believe in God. I read the bible and pray daily. I go to church. I speak to God and believe God speaks to me. This, my faith, is a huge part of who I am, of how I live and how I hope to bring up my children. It's as serious as I can get about anything to be honest.

I, as a Christian, believe in the words and the teachings of Christ. Jesus was someone who spoke truth to power, who fought against the religious authorities in an intellectual and spiritual way. He championed the low, the poor and the needy. Repeatedly. He had an awful lot to say about the rich, especially those who hoarded wealth and power and then hypocritically spoke like they had the higher authority and ethical high ground.

Sounding familiar?

He often spoke out and defended those who society deemed "unfit" or "outcast" or "unworthy." He did not schmooze with the rich and powerful and the times he is recorded as dining with them, he was unafraid in pointing out their faults and hypocrisy. He is, essentially, the conservatives worst nightmare.

Ooh and he never said a single thing about gay people!

When I read the nonsense that the folk at the GOP spew out it annoys me for so many reasons, not least that they have got it so completely and utterly wrong. So when some smug fascist who represents something almost anathema to the teaching they claim to follow says "God spoke to me and he said this..." I cringe.

Because as I said, I do believe God speaks. Heck, I am one of those who moved a long way because I believe it is what God wanted me to do. I'm willing to talk further on that if you want but basically it wasn't something that makes sense in any natural way. It cost us a heck of a lot and living here is way more expensive than where we used to live not to mention inconvenient to get to and from. But we believed I it was part of a divine will and we have seen blessings as a result.

I'm probably rambling a lot right now so I'll shut up. As I said I have not taken any offence from anything said before I just wanted to provide a slightly different POV (hopefully one not too insane sounding) I get that you guys don't believe in God and you probably think I'm just as nuts as the other guys. Or that this is some kind of No True Scotsman fallacy.

But the Jesus I follow is very different to Republican Jesus. If I was running for office I would not hide my faith but equally I would not rant about it in place of real practical things I'd want to do if I was elected.

In my work place now I don't hide who I am but I don't spend the whole time trying to force everyone else to change who they are. Jesus never did that. He just loved people in a radical non conformist way and they wanted to know more.

Anyway I've said my piece thanks to you guys if you actually read all that haha

Nothing much to say, other than thank you for sharing! While I am an atheist, I am not militant about it. I am firmly in the "believe what you want but don't foist it on others" camp. So, I hope it didn't come across from me as if I were denigrating true believers, but I can see how it might have.

I was moreso trying to provide an example of how widespread the belief that God talks to individuals is.

Also, if it's not too sensitive of a topic, could you share in what ways the idea of moving your family manifested? Was it signs? A voice? A recurring thought?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Tiste Simeon, on 10 December 2023 - 09:48 PM, said:

Ok so I've been debating whether to comment on this these past couple of days. I wasn't sure I could be bothered to get involved in this part of the discussion but it's been sitting on my mind so I figured why not.

You guys know me, mostly. I'm friends with some of you IRL as a result of this forum so I'm hoping you'll t take that into account. And please know I am not offended by any of the preceding posts. I get it's a weird subject and especially for the Americans among us where this is a much bigger issue...

I believe in God. I read the bible and pray daily. I go to church. I speak to God and believe God speaks to me. This, my faith, is a huge part of who I am, of how I live and how I hope to bring up my children. It's as serious as I can get about anything to be honest.

I, as a Christian, believe in the words and the teachings of Christ. Jesus was someone who spoke truth to power, who fought against the religious authorities in an intellectual and spiritual way. He championed the low, the poor and the needy. Repeatedly. He had an awful lot to say about the rich, especially those who hoarded wealth and power and then hypocritically spoke like they had the higher authority and ethical high ground.

Sounding familiar?

He often spoke out and defended those who society deemed "unfit" or "outcast" or "unworthy." He did not schmooze with the rich and powerful and the times he is recorded as dining with them, he was unafraid in pointing out their faults and hypocrisy. He is, essentially, the conservatives worst nightmare.

Ooh and he never said a single thing about gay people!

When I read the nonsense that the folk at the GOP spew out it annoys me for so many reasons, not least that they have got it so completely and utterly wrong. So when some smug fascist who represents something almost anathema to the teaching they claim to follow says "God spoke to me and he said this..." I cringe.

Because as I said, I do believe God speaks. Heck, I am one of those who moved a long way because I believe it is what God wanted me to do. I'm willing to talk further on that if you want but basically it wasn't something that makes sense in any natural way. It cost us a heck of a lot and living here is way more expensive than where we used to live not to mention inconvenient to get to and from. But we believed I it was part of a divine will and we have seen blessings as a result.

I'm probably rambling a lot right now so I'll shut up. As I said I have not taken any offence from anything said before I just wanted to provide a slightly different POV (hopefully one not too insane sounding) I get that you guys don't believe in God and you probably think I'm just as nuts as the other guys. Or that this is some kind of No True Scotsman fallacy.

But the Jesus I follow is very different to Republican Jesus. If I was running for office I would not hide my faith but equally I would not rant about it in place of real practical things I'd want to do if I was elected.

In my work place now I don't hide who I am but I don't spend the whole time trying to force everyone else to change who they are. Jesus never did that. He just loved people in a radical non conformist way and they wanted to know more.

Anyway I've said my piece thanks to you guys if you actually read all that haha

For what it's worth (and thank you for sharing), I'm entirely non-religious but Mr NAB was brought up religious and considered himself so until being a late teenager. I have said to him more than once that if more Christians were like you Tiste, I'd have far more tolerance and probably interest in it all. You seem to live the values of it and I have always had a lot of respect for you as a result