[worry]

My point is, I don't see how you drew the conclusion that it's not 'wrong' for a billionaire couch potato with no expertise and a hankering for white nationalism to question our immensely complicated immigration system. You didn't say from an ignoramus's perspective it makes sense; you said you didn't think he was wrong. You might believe both, but on what basis do you draw that latter conclusion?

Understanding someone's perspective -- including ignorance -- doesn't mean you have to accept or even respect that perspective. We understand why Jeffrey Dahmer ate people -- among other things, he thought they were delicious -- but that doesn't mean we should grant that he was not 'wrong' from his perspective. He was wrong, conclusively, regardless of his perspective. There's no reason to flatten all perspective as coplanar. Donald Trump's perspective is ignorant, malign, lazy, and inhumane -- and, once you understand where he's coming from, still wrong. It's okay to say so.

[Tiste Simeon]

Or to put it simply, he isn't after seeing political reform and healthy robust debate to improve his country, he's after legalising cruelty to people with a different skin colour to himself.

[Primateus]

Tiste Simeon, on 25 June 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

Or to put it simply, he isn't after seeing political reform and healthy robust debate to improve his country, he's after legalising cruelty to people with a different skin colour to himself.

Well fuck! That's pretty much everyone in the world except himself and the cast of Jersey Shore!

[Gorefest]

Good times for the carrot people.

[Aptorian]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 25 June 2018 - 09:18 PM, said:

My point is, I don't see how you drew the conclusion that it's not 'wrong' for a billionaire couch potato with no expertise and a hankering for white nationalism to question our immensely complicated immigration system. You didn't say from an ignoramus's perspective it makes sense; you said you didn't think he was wrong. You might believe both, but on what basis do you draw that latter conclusion?

Understanding someone's perspective -- including ignorance -- doesn't mean you have to accept or even respect that perspective. We understand why Jeffrey Dahmer ate people -- among other things, he thought they were delicious -- but that doesn't mean we should grant that he was not 'wrong' from his perspective. He was wrong, conclusively, regardless of his perspective. There's no reason to flatten all perspective as coplanar. Donald Trump's perspective is ignorant, malign, lazy, and inhumane -- and, once you understand where he's coming from, still wrong. It's okay to say so.

I don't think he's "wrong" about immigration because the right to immigrate is not a human right, nor is it something that is sustainable long term imo.

Trump is elected democratically and in this one role, being tough on immigration, I think he's actually doing his job or, at least, being the Wild card the voters expected. By challenging the laws he might force a rethinking. Hopefully in a more practical sense and not just a straight up "all brown people are bad" sense.

It's not a one to one comparison between the EU and the USA, but I look at what immigration is doing to our politics, how things are skewing further right, how Danish culture is souring on immigration despite we traditionally being open and welcoming, and I think something different will be needed soon. Instead of them coming to us, we'll need to come to them.

Otherwise we'll see very bad shit go down when the real mass migrations kicks in because of global warming.

Trump will of course just want to build a wall but one way or another it might actually be needed unless we change our whole system of welfare and economy.

[Obdigore]

Alternative Goose, on 26 June 2018 - 03:14 AM, said:

I don't think he's "wrong" about immigration because the right to immigrate is not a human right, nor is it something that is sustainable long term imo.

And here it's quite clear you don't know what you are talking about. I'll just link this bad boy - https://en.wikipedia...rtilityrate.svg
That shows that women in developed countries have an average fertility rate of less than 2. That means that the current local population isn't breeding enough to sustain, which means that either you have immigrants or your social programs stop working as they generally depend on an ever increasing population to support.

Quote

Trump is elected democratically

Well, kind of, but I'll give it to you

Quote

and in this one role, being tough on immigration, I think he's actually doing his job or, at least, being the Wild card the voters expected.

All his voters expected was some dude to make things easier on them by being mean to the browns and the blacks. I'm not sure how tearing children from people seeking asylum is 'tough on immigration'.

Quote

By challenging the laws he might force a rethinking. Hopefully in a more practical sense and not just a straight up "all brown people are bad" sense.

He isn't challenging any laws, he's writing them with executive orders, and the GOP in congress approve, at least enough to go along with it.

Quote

It's not a one to one comparison between the EU and the USA, but I look at what immigration is doing to our politics, how things are skewing further right, how Danish culture is souring on immigration despite we traditionally being open and welcoming, and I think something different will be needed soon. Instead of them coming to us, we'll need to come to them.

Oh, I see. You're afraid. You've bought in to the 'immigrants are bad people and are raping all our white daughters and stealing all our white stuff' lie. I'll just go ahead and drop this here - https://www.nytimes....ation-myth.html

Quote

Otherwise we'll see very bad shit go down when the real mass migrations kicks in because of global warming.

That's a completely different problem that we need to address.

Quote

Trump will of course just want to build a wall but one way or another it might actually be needed unless we change our whole system of welfare and economy.

Walls are stupid. National borders are stupid. Nationalism is stupid. Europeans that think they just magic'd up money and resources and didn't use colonialism to literally steal that from other continents are stupid, especially when they whine about the sons and daughters of the people they stole everything from, following the prosperity that their resources created.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 26 June 2018 - 03:29 AM

[worry]

I don't want to ascribe everything Apt said to Apt personally -- in some parts I take it he's giving personal opinion and in others he's making general observations about national or international moods and trends, whether he agrees with them or not (and whether I agree with his conclusions or not). That aside though I pretty much agree 100% with Obdigore's post.
I will add a few things hodgepodge (I'm a little low on time right now): "Human rights" are a nebulous concept and the more concepts that advance human dignity that we enshrine as human rights, the better, including immigration. I will say that while free-flowing immigration isn't currently considered a human right by most (or all?) governments, and likely most people, asylum certainly is and the Trump administration is currently devastating both asylum laws and asylum seekers.
I will also say the United States is huge, hugely empty, and hugely wealthy. We have space for the smattering of undocumented people who are already here, and for those who want to come here as well, with room and wealth to spare. I would also say that the U.S., unique among all nations (as annoying as American Exceptionalism can be, I get it), has a special relationship with immigration as an ideal. We've betrayed it countless times, but I personally cherish that ideal. That said, we've been at a net-zero (into net-negative) flow of undocumented immigrants for several years Link and even arrests at the border have been at near-half-century lows Link, so it's not just a matter of deportations.

And what that gets at is the misapprehension inherent in this line: "Hopefully in a more practical sense and not just a straight up "all brown people are bad" sense." Discussing things like future trends in immigration due to global warming is inherently theoretical. I get that. And you have practical motivations for thinking about this, though I personally agree with Obidgore that they're misplaced fears (it's kinda Malthusian). But still, all theoretical. Discussing Donald Trump and his administration's overt, deliberate, malign, fascist white nationalism isn't theoretical though. There's no room for the benefit of the doubt, no room for playing Devil's Advocate, no room for hopefully it's not as bad as they say. It's as bad as they say. Any discussion of Donald Trump's policies that soft-pedals his malicious racism, his xenophobia, his admin's brutal actions against minorities (not exclusive to, but definitely particularly glaring re: immigrants) is frankly inert.

[Morgoth]

Cause, on 25 June 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 25 June 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

So, is THIS looking more like a certain historical group yet?

A direct attack on the Constitution the US was founded on...by a sitting president...from his official pulpit.

Also to see this week: SHS illegally used her official Twitter account to attack a private business stemming from a personal reason.

I actually woul Never have thought illegal immigrants have many rights. I kind of figured all the protections of the constitution etc would apply only to citizens. This has been my assumption for the way all countries work

No countries, at least no western countries, work like that.

[Gorefest]

Harley Davidson is moving parts of its production line abroad due to the us-eu trade embargos. Go Trump.

[EmperorMagus]

Gorefest, on 26 June 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

Harley Davidson is moving parts of its production line abroad due to the us-eu trade embargos. Go Trump.

And layoffs directly caused by the tariffs are starting.

https://www.washingt...riffs-are-here/

[QuickTidal]

Travel ban upheld by SCOTUS.

[Vengeance]

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

Travel ban upheld by SCOTUS.

With Gorfuck in there did you expect any less.

[worry]

This SCOTUS from Hell is one of those times where you can say "Thanks, Obama" sarcastically and mean it. What a dereliction of duty. Talk about feckless. (Obviously McConnell and company are even worse, and should be shoved into man-sized blenders, but that was true before the Merrick Garland fiasco).
Meanwhile Dem "leaders" are busy lecturing their own would-be constituents on civility.

[Aptorian]

Obdigore, on 26 June 2018 - 03:28 AM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 26 June 2018 - 03:14 AM, said:

I don't think he's "wrong" about immigration because the right to immigrate is not a human right, nor is it something that is sustainable long term imo.

And here it's quite clear you don't know what you are talking about. I'll just link this bad boy - https://en.wikipedia...rtilityrate.svg
That shows that women in developed countries have an average fertility rate of less than 2. That means that the current local population isn't breeding enough to sustain, which means that either you have immigrants or your social programs stop working as they generally depend on an ever increasing population to support.

Quote

Trump is elected democratically

Well, kind of, but I'll give it to you

Quote

and in this one role, being tough on immigration, I think he's actually doing his job or, at least, being the Wild card the voters expected.

All his voters expected was some dude to make things easier on them by being mean to the browns and the blacks. I'm not sure how tearing children from people seeking asylum is 'tough on immigration'.

Quote

By challenging the laws he might force a rethinking. Hopefully in a more practical sense and not just a straight up "all brown people are bad" sense.

He isn't challenging any laws, he's writing them with executive orders, and the GOP in congress approve, at least enough to go along with it.

Quote

It's not a one to one comparison between the EU and the USA, but I look at what immigration is doing to our politics, how things are skewing further right, how Danish culture is souring on immigration despite we traditionally being open and welcoming, and I think something different will be needed soon. Instead of them coming to us, we'll need to come to them.

Oh, I see. You're afraid. You've bought in to the 'immigrants are bad people and are raping all our white daughters and stealing all our white stuff' lie. I'll just go ahead and drop this here - https://www.nytimes....ation-myth.html

Quote

Otherwise we'll see very bad shit go down when the real mass migrations kicks in because of global warming.

That's a completely different problem that we need to address.

Quote

Trump will of course just want to build a wall but one way or another it might actually be needed unless we change our whole system of welfare and economy.

Walls are stupid. National borders are stupid. Nationalism is stupid. Europeans that think they just magic'd up money and resources and didn't use colonialism to literally steal that from other continents are stupid, especially when they whine about the sons and daughters of the people they stole everything from, following the prosperity that their resources created.

Discussions would be more constructive if you didn't work from the assumption that I am ignorant or racist, rather than that I just don't agree with thw current idealist notions of how we should embrace the world.

I am well aware that we, at least in Denmark need an in flux of a work force to maintain growth. However A. I think our addiction to growth of investments and production is killing the planet, I'd prefer we just shrunk our populations until automation takes over. B. Everything we've seen from the past decade of immigration suggests that the majority of migrants will not be assimilated properly, especially in the coming years with focus on knowledge based jobs, and will instead become an even further drain on our welfare and healthcare system. To speak nothing of my real worry.

I think we suck as a society at integrating immigrants here in Denmark. Our media is full of fear mongering and culturally we're not a terribly open society. We're open minded but not overly welcoming of new people.

I think these growing waves of immigrants at Europe's "shore" is going to change the EU for the worse. Right wing extreme beliefs will become acceptable and freedom will get squashed in the name of security.

I am not afraid of the foreigners. I am afraid of what my fellow citizens will do when they are faced with electing politicians they believe can best secure the future of their culture and the security of the nation.

And I am worried about what happens to us culturally if you keep injecting middle eastern or Muslim culture into western society. I really hope it some how all works out but I am worried we're just going to make all the wrong choices. Even our biggest left wing party is now courting the most right wing parties immigration rhetoric, because fuck decency, get voters.

You can quote famous thinkers and reference periods of great upheaval and mass migration all you want but I think historically we're at a point where we've never been richer but we've also never had more to lose. I think people would rather see people drowning in the Mediterranean, or at Trumps immaginary border wall, rather than risking the status quo.

Idealistically I agree, borders and nation states should be abolished, were all in on this together on this ball of dirt. But realistically, I don't think our civilization has the will or interest to change the way we distribute wealth or treat those who are not a part of our culture.

So to return to my statement in a prior post. I am disillusioned about the prospects of future immigration and I don't think there's anything evil or wrong about turning away any or all immigrants. But there definitely are better ways of going about it than the shit Trump is pulling off.

What I think we need to figure out is if we can do better out reach instead. Prepare the third world now so that we don't have to house half of them 50 years from now.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 26 June 2018 - 06:35 PM

[worry]

[EmperorMagus]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 26 June 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Yay rule of law!!!

I have a relative who is a lawyer in Iran. This intimidation/harrassment is the exact sort of stuff that's common there.

[Aptorian]

Is ICE basically TSA gone wild? Seems like the government has a way of just fuelling assholes into pr disasasters.

[worry]

It's scary. ICE has xenophobia and abuse of power written into its DNA. It was born after 9/11 in the same power-grab as the Patriot Act and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, and so much of the "counterterror" apparatus has -- as predicted -- been turned into general abuse of anyone and everyone different. I'm definitely on the Abolish ICE and prosecute its worst offenders train, full stop. It needs to go.

[worry]

Alternative Goose, on 26 June 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Is ICE basically TSA gone wild? Seems like the government has a way of just fuelling assholes into pr disasasters.

It's messy and I want to make clear I'm not an expert or historian of this topic, but I'm learning the best I can. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security reshuffled so many things together that shouldn't be together. I don't know if I could do a description justice, but there's elements of Customs/Border Patrol, TSA, FBI, ATF, militarized police (like SWAT teams), and other things all mushed together (mind you, all those other things still exist). It replaced the Immigration and Naturalization Service and turned a public service & law enforcement agency (which had its controversies, naturally) into an overtly hostile force. And now that they're unleashed, they're doing things like routinely arresting people at their legal status processing interviews (including green card interviews).

[Obdigore]

Alternative Goose, on 26 June 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

Discussions would be more constructive if you didn't work from the assumption that I am ignorant or racist, rather than that I just don't agree with thw current idealist notions of how we should embrace the world.

Don't post ignorant or racist viewpoints, and then we don't have to work from that ideal. (Edit - Let me be clear. I deal with these viewpoints at work every day. I do not react well to people saying shit that is blatantly false, not backing it up, then calling me a snowflake. I also admit I am at the end of the rope, and so if I read slightly too much into your positions around Danish Culture and immigration, I apologize.)

Quote

I am well aware that we, at least in Denmark need an in flux of a work force to maintain growth. However A. I think our addiction to growth of investments and production is killing the planet, I'd prefer we just shrunk our populations until automation takes over.

So, you are a proponent of government control over reproductive rights? I agree that 'our addiction to growth of investments' is killing the planet, but it has little to do with the number of people and everything to do with the number of monies a small group of people wants.

Quote

B. Everything we've seen from the past decade of immigration suggests that the majority of migrants will not be assimilated properly, especially in the coming years with focus on knowledge based jobs, and will instead become an even further drain on our welfare and healthcare system. To speak nothing of my real worry.

Immigration can't be judged on a mere decade. Assimilation takes years, and it's known by pretty much everyone that first generation immigrants are never fully assimilated. The second generation (their kids) are almost always some of the best fucking people you'd ever meet, because they have to work harder and they know it.

Quote

I think we suck as a society at integrating immigrants here in Denmark.

Join the club

Quote

Our media is full of fear mongering and culturally we're not a terribly open society. We're open minded but not overly welcoming of new people.

So fix it. That's the great part about immigration. You meet people from other places, with other experiences, and you realize they are just people too. Colored by their experiences, annointed by their failures and successes, they come out as someone with a name that you can't pronounce that you enjoy having beers with.

Quote

I think these growing waves of immigrants at Europe's "shore" is going to change the EU for the worse. Right wing extreme beliefs will become acceptable and freedom will get squashed in the name of security.

That's the rub isn't it. For centuries the colonial countries have been fucking with pretty much everyone else. Crushing their way of life, imposing changes, taking what is good, and what is valuable. Now their descendants follow the trail of wealth, dreaming of a better life, willing to leave their friends and family behind in the hellhole that we have helped create. All they want is a fair shake. And all the racists want is to stir up those conservative beliefs and gain power and do horrendous things. To fix it you have to give back to these nations. Help them not be a terrible place.

Quote

I am not afraid of the foreigners. I am afraid of what my fellow citizens will do when they are faced with electing politicians they believe can best secure the future of their culture and the security of the nation.

Probably a good fear to have. Hopefully the lessons of the trumpsterfire and brexit can help people understand that those choices are weighty ones that carry disastrous consequences.

Quote

And I am worried about what happens to us culturally if you keep injecting middle eastern or Muslim culture into western society. I really hope it some how all works out but I am worried we're just going to make all the wrong choices. Even our biggest left wing party is now courting the most right wing parties immigration rhetoric, because fuck decency, get voters.

See previous response.

Quote

You can quote famous thinkers and reference periods of great upheaval and mass migration all you want but I think historically we're at a point where we've never been richer but we've also never had more to lose. I think people would rather see people drowning in the Mediterranean, or at Trumps immaginary border wall, rather than risking the status quo.

'We' being who? The colonial countries, because I agree. If you mean the people from these countries, they have nothing left to lose and so will sacrifice anything for a chance at all that wealth you see around you.

Quote

Idealistically I agree, borders and nation states should be abolished, were all in on this together on this ball of dirt. But realistically, I don't think our civilization has the will or interest to change the way we distribute wealth or treat those who are not a part of our culture.

As long as the masses stay fat and reasonably happy, with a few toys here and there, I agree. As we move further and further towards the capitalist dystopia, I guess we will see what happens.

Quote

So to return to my statement in a prior post. I am disillusioned about the prospects of future immigration and I don't think there's anything evil or wrong about turning away any or all immigrants. But there definitely are better ways of going about it than the shit Trump is pulling off.

What I think we need to figure out is if we can do better out reach instead. Prepare the third world now so that we don't have to house half of them 50 years from now.

I've addressed this point above, but yes, we(our relative colonial countries) could help instead of harming these countries, and slow this immigration stream to closer to what you see between colonial countries themselves.

However, there's no profit to be in it, so good fucking luck, right?

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 26 June 2018 - 09:48 PM