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The USA Politics Thread

#6861 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 05:14 AM

The reason why people don't like Trumps willingness to give with out taking something back, is two fold .

One, the douche bag claims to be a master negotiator but he knows nothing, never prepares m, ignores advice and just goes with his cheeseburger filled gut.

Two, unlike Trump, the rest of the world reads history books. They remember yesterday's news. Plenty of attempts at negotiating with North Korea have been made. No lasting progress has been made.

Everything we know about North Korea says that (much like trump) they are dangerous, underhanded and erratic.

That said, sure, play along for now, but be prepared for failure.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 13 June 2018 - 05:15 AM

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#6862 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:29 AM

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

Amphibian. Just face it . It’s brilliant.



No Nico, it really isnt. Every single US president of the last 20 years could have arranged such a meeting but none chose to. And for good reason.


It is common sense and basic logic that a meeting with a nation who is ignoring every international rule and under heavy embargo is a last step in a process of improvement, as a 'reward' for good behaviour. Instead, what Trump has done in a single stroke is legitimise a dispicable regime, give Kim a fuckton of propaganda boosts, unsettled relations with South Korea and Japan, and given N Korea increased breathing space through the reduction of military pressure? And for what? A vague assurance by a corrupt dictator that he may reduce his nuclear capacity a bit. Maybe. Kim is laughing his head off about such diplomatic idiocy and the rest of us can only look on in shocked disbelief.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 13 June 2018 - 07:30 AM

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#6863 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:50 AM

That whole Hollywood trailer setup for the meeting pretty much shows it was just a publicity stunt by the orange goblin anyway. How people are taking it seriously, I don't know. Confirmation bias, perhaps?
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#6864 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:56 AM

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 04:04 AM, said:

View PostCause, on 12 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Trump just had a face to face meeting with Kim. They agreed to improve relations, talk more about denuclearization and trumo has promised to end joint us and s Korean training excercises? Seriously? The art of the deal here escapes me. He is either playing 9th dimensional chess or eating glue. No idea how we fix North Korea but I doubt this is it

South Korea wont be impressed, Japan wont be impressed. The trade war intensifies.


@ cause: this was a 1st meeting. Trump the guy in power actually gave up shit. Let Nkorea feel important. This went exceedingly well. Sometimes it’s just a talk.

Wtf you guys expect Trump to punch him in the face ? Declare world peace.

Ok first date, you don’t say I want to F you. You just talk.

People are crazy.


Trump shook hands with Kim and says they have a special bond. HE SAYS HE HAS A SPECIAL BOND WITH THE WORLDS MOST EGREGIOUS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATOR! He said N Korea could have the worlds best hotels! Seriously? Seriously!!!!! The last American tourist came back with brain damage from torture and died! He probably just likes the idea of Trump Tower in pygong

Its a first meeting and nothing was accomplished except Trump without consulting his allies first has promised to stop traininig exercises. See this behavior in context of him leaving the G7 summit to see an enemy (after alienating everyone there) and single handedly deciding to leave the iran deal (alienating allies). He is pissing of friends to maybe earn the friendship of people the USA should not want to be friends with. Its bizarre.

Judging by what trump says (though one should never do this) he seems to believe kim flew home to immediately start dismantling the nuclear weapons program by hand, personally. Instead we have a vague promise to denuclearize the Korean peninsula.

In N Koreas view that actually means also removing the USA nuclear shield over south Korea. Also it ignores the chemical and biological weapons that N Korea has pointed at seoul and elsewhere that could still annihilate the south or at least do serious damage.

Yes America is the greater power. That makes it all the more bizarre to give up things unilaterally when N Koreas bargaining position is only getting stronger. At best he should have said if you stop tests for 3 months, Ill freeze all training exercises up until the date you do another test and then they back on, and I will even increase them.

There is also the greater contect of the fact that trump earned a concession that S Korea already earned a few months ago. There is also that N Korea has a tendency to break deals and so does trump. So ....
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#6865 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:00 PM

Let's take a quick look at some of the other negotiating periods with NK.

In 1994:
According to the deal, North Korea would dismantle its reactor at Yongbyon, the source of its plutonium, in return for two civilian light water nuclear power stations, generally seen as less of a proliferation risk. Until those reactors were built, North Korea would receive shipments of US-financed fuel oil.

From such tentative beginnings, the Agreed Framework would last nearly nine years, but its implementation would be a constant struggle. A Republican-dominated Congress did its best to slow down fuel deliveries, and the construction timetable for the reactors was continually postponed.

It later emerged that North Korea had been cheating by pursuing a secret uranium route to making a bomb. That was enough for the hawks in the Bush administration, John Bolton among them, to kill off the Agreed Framework.

The accord’s defenders suggest that the uranium enrichment programme was the regime’s hedge against the US reneging on the deal, and it could have been closed down through negotiations. They also argue that the Agreed Framework held back the weapons programme for most of the 1990s.

Christopher Hill, who became the Bush administration’s chief negotiator with North Korea, disagreed with the decision to end the Agreed Framework. “My own view is we lost control of the plutonium process, we lost inspectors on the ground. We lost the capacity to understand what was going on there,” Hill said.

In 2005

Those negotiations eventually led to a 2005 joint statement of principles to guide future negotiations, which included some of the elements of the Agreed Framework, such as the eventual provision of light water reactors, and a lot of language that will be on the table in Tuesday’s talks between Trump and Kim.

The statement called for “the verifiable denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula … in a phased manner in line with the principle of ‘commitment for commitment, action for action.’”

The joint statement once more raised hopes that the US and North Korea had turned a corner in their relationship, but it began to fall apart almost immediately. Within weeks, the US Treasury imposed new sanctions, freezing $23m (£17m) in North Korean assets in a bank in the Chinese territory of Macau, using counter-terror legislation. It was a relatively small amount of money, but it infuriated the North Koreans and the Chinese, who saw it as a violation of the spirit of the joint statement. US diplomats who had negotiated the 2005 statement were also taken by surprise.

“I think it’s fair to say that one part of the US government was not particularly in touch with another part of US government, not for the first or last time,” said Hill, who saw it as an act of sabotage by hawks such as Bolton in the Bush administration. “I think the real purpose of it was to screw up the negotiations.”

2012:

Kim Jong-un has struck one deal with the US, in February 2012. Under the Leap Year agreement, the regime undertook once more to suspend enrichment in Yongbyon under IAEA verification and to suspend nuclear and missile testing, in exchange, the Obama administration pledged to send food aid.

Once more, the deal fell apart within weeks when North Korea conducted missile launches, which it insisted were for satellite deployment. The US deemed them a breach of the Leap Year agreement and halted plans to send food aid.

https://www.armscont...heets/dprkchron

https://www.theguard...ingapore-summit


At no point during all of these negotiations has an American President met with the NK leader. That was always a carrot to only be delivered if NK met conditions. Also at no point has anyone ever referred to the yearly joint drills as war games. Anyone other then NK and China. So Trump met with Kim and got nothing in return other then a vague promise of action. There was no inspectors, no timetable no action from NK of any kind in order to meet with the President of the US. Then there is no inspectors timetable for halting of the joint drills. Both of those are huge give aways. Now if Trump changes his mind on the joint drills NK and China will be able to say see they weren't going to keep their word anyway.

Lose US - Win NK.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#6866 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:05 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 12 June 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

View PostTiste Simeon, on 11 June 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

View PostLuv2B_Sassy, on 11 June 2018 - 08:21 PM, said:

Setting aside whether that's a good or bad strategy, what makes you think a braindead business failure slumlord white supremacist narcissist has any interest in doing any of that? As opposed to just like continuing his amateur organized crime roleplay on a global scale.

Yeah Nico has some good points to consider but trump is DEFINITELY not the one to implement them.

What good points does he have?

I'm being serious here. He's pushing for Trump to implement a trade war, fascist immigration restrictions, financial policies akin to oligarchy looting, and popping most environmental health laws off the books.


Amphibian. Just face it . It’s brilliant.

I like all the negativity it’s hilarious. Trump still got NK to the table.

You guys would have lost your shit had Obama done the same. Guess what Obama didn’t even do that.

/yikes


You mean other then in 2012 when Obama got NK to agree to inspections. Oh what did we give up for that. Food deliveries I believe.

What did Trump give up for no inspections... actually meeting with a dictator and saying he was going to stop the joint drills.

Yep one of those two is a great negotiator. The other got a hard on about building hotels in NK.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#6867 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:35 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 04:04 AM, said:

View PostCause, on 12 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Trump just had a face to face meeting with Kim. They agreed to improve relations, talk more about denuclearization and trumo has promised to end joint us and s Korean training excercises? Seriously? The art of the deal here escapes me. He is either playing 9th dimensional chess or eating glue. No idea how we fix North Korea but I doubt this is it

South Korea wont be impressed, Japan wont be impressed. The trade war intensifies.


@ cause: this was a 1st meeting. Trump the guy in power actually gave up shit. Let Nkorea feel important. This went exceedingly well. Sometimes it’s just a talk.

Wtf you guys expect Trump to punch him in the face ? Declare world peace.

Ok first date, you don’t say I want to F you. You just talk.

People are crazy.


He published a book the art of the deal. He claimed to be a great negotiator. He has dismantled the state department because he will do it all.

So I expect him to get at least a promise and a date for inspections both human right and weapons before agreeing to stop joint military exercises with South Korea (who has been our ally for half a century).
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#6868 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:22 PM

View PostCause, on 13 June 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 04:04 AM, said:

View PostCause, on 12 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Trump just had a face to face meeting with Kim. They agreed to improve relations, talk more about denuclearization and trumo has promised to end joint us and s Korean training excercises? Seriously? The art of the deal here escapes me. He is either playing 9th dimensional chess or eating glue. No idea how we fix North Korea but I doubt this is it

South Korea wont be impressed, Japan wont be impressed. The trade war intensifies.


@ cause: this was a 1st meeting. Trump the guy in power actually gave up shit. Let Nkorea feel important. This went exceedingly well. Sometimes it’s just a talk.

Wtf you guys expect Trump to punch him in the face ? Declare world peace.

Ok first date, you don’t say I want to F you. You just talk.

People are crazy.


Trump shook hands with Kim and says they have a special bond. HE SAYS HE HAS A SPECIAL BOND WITH THE WORLDS MOST EGREGIOUS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATOR! He said N Korea could have the worlds best hotels! Seriously? Seriously!!!!! The last American tourist came back with brain damage from torture and died! He probably just likes the idea of Trump Tower in pygong

Its a first meeting and nothing was accomplished except Trump without consulting his allies first has promised to stop traininig exercises. See this behavior in context of him leaving the G7 summit to see an enemy (after alienating everyone there) and single handedly deciding to leave the iran deal (alienating allies). He is pissing of friends to maybe earn the friendship of people the USA should not want to be friends with. Its bizarre.

Judging by what trump says (though one should never do this) he seems to believe kim flew home to immediately start dismantling the nuclear weapons program by hand, personally. Instead we have a vague promise to denuclearize the Korean peninsula.

In N Koreas view that actually means also removing the USA nuclear shield over south Korea. Also it ignores the chemical and biological weapons that N Korea has pointed at seoul and elsewhere that could still annihilate the south or at least do serious damage.

Yes America is the greater power. That makes it all the more bizarre to give up things unilaterally when N Koreas bargaining position is only getting stronger. At best he should have said if you stop tests for 3 months, Ill freeze all training exercises up until the date you do another test and then they back on, and I will even increase them.

There is also the greater contect of the fact that trump earned a concession that S Korea already earned a few months ago. There is also that N Korea has a tendency to break deals and so does trump. So ....


It was great !

I hate to say it, but he it seemed to me he went to the table and listened.

It would have been bad form on a first meet up to what bring up humanitarian issues? That doesn’t seem like a civil way to start this. Ultimately, he went .. he talked and didn’t piss them off. So win. I like the fact they are talking about NK coming to the table as the country is actually unraveling internally. This is s theory, but only would be proved with the integration of NK back into the fold.

Something like 80% of South Koreans supported the summit.
https://www.realclea...mit_137245.html

I highly doubt a civil tone would be to point out a country’s inherent flaws, so I don’t see a problem with him flattering a industry. I don’t think I would personally stay and vaca there myself.

Talking to Kim had to occur.. it’s been 7 decades ! Peace ultimately is worth a few concessions if it means bringing Nkorea and really it’s people into a more civilized world. The humanitarian crisis alone that is speculated .. I can’t imagine. It’s worth the effort if it gains traction and holds. The past strategy hasn’t it seems like..

Imagine if it goes posistive.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 13 June 2018 - 10:23 PM

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#6869 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:59 PM

i'm going to hold my peace other than this: Obama would be impeached for this and many other things Trump has done.

Nic, reinforce your bomb shelter.
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#6870 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:04 AM

Just a quick update on where the kids are:

They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#6871 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:50 AM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 13 June 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

i'm going to hold my peace other than this: Obama would be impeached for this and many other things Trump has done.

Nic, reinforce your bomb shelter.


Yeah, but Obama's brown. Trump is faux orange. All the Banjos are inevitably going to view an act that would have been traitorous if Obammer did it as glorious and revolutionary when Trump does.
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#6872 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:03 AM

Nico. What, so, humanitarian issues are suddenly bad form to talk about? Not important enough?
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#6873 User is offline   Garak 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:01 AM

And since when has Trump cared about insulting and pissing people off? He's been insulting people left and right since forever, now suddenly annoying the tinpot dictator isn't allowed? But pissing off his allies is fine?

Ummm, hey USA can we switch goverment types? You give us one where the President has power and can use it, I'll give you one where the president has all the power of a lemming. This way your goverment can halt the Cheeto and our President can handle the thieves and imbeciles we have posing as a government (all they've done since gaining power is try to modify the law to escape prison and spend money they don't have).
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#6874 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:19 AM

I love that he pulled the "other people are bad too" argument today in defence of praising a mass murdering dictator who puts people in concentration camps.

Sure he's a monster but he never said anything mean about Trump on Twitter so that evens things out.
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#6875 User is offline   Garak 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:22 AM

Yeah that's the defense the ruling party in my country is using every single time someone accuses them of being corrupt hicks (which is more or less daily).
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#6876 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:19 AM

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

It would have been bad form on a first meet up to what bring up humanitarian issues? That doesn’t seem like a civil way to start this. Ultimately, he went .. he talked and didn’t piss them off. So win. I like the fact they are talking about NK coming to the table as the country is actually unraveling internally. This is s theory, but only would be proved with the integration of NK back into the fold.

Something like 80% of South Koreans supported the summit.
https://www.realclea...mit_137245.html


The range between not bringing up the humanitarian crisis and saying he and a homicidal dictator are now BFFs is almost infinite. Listen the humanitarian crisis in NK is horrific. Obviously not horrific enough for us to risk our lives and treasure to stop it, we made that choice long ago. Our primary goal is world security, not NK security, that said we should never gloss over it so far that we pretend that NK is a viable tourist destination.

I support the summit too! N Korea needs to be fixed and it should have been fixed decades ago. Its like a boil on the earth. We need to fix it, before they nuke a country not after. Ill admit I have no idea how but it should get more international attention than it does.
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#6877 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:36 PM

View PostLuv2B_Sassy, on 14 June 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

Just a quick update on where the kids are:



Sweet gods this is fucking REPULSIVE.
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#6878 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:48 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

View PostCause, on 13 June 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 13 June 2018 - 04:04 AM, said:

View PostCause, on 12 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Trump just had a face to face meeting with Kim. They agreed to improve relations, talk more about denuclearization and trumo has promised to end joint us and s Korean training excercises? Seriously? The art of the deal here escapes me. He is either playing 9th dimensional chess or eating glue. No idea how we fix North Korea but I doubt this is it

South Korea wont be impressed, Japan wont be impressed. The trade war intensifies.


@ cause: this was a 1st meeting. Trump the guy in power actually gave up shit. Let Nkorea feel important. This went exceedingly well. Sometimes it’s just a talk.

Wtf you guys expect Trump to punch him in the face ? Declare world peace.

Ok first date, you don’t say I want to F you. You just talk.

People are crazy.


Trump shook hands with Kim and says they have a special bond. HE SAYS HE HAS A SPECIAL BOND WITH THE WORLDS MOST EGREGIOUS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATOR! He said N Korea could have the worlds best hotels! Seriously? Seriously!!!!! The last American tourist came back with brain damage from torture and died! He probably just likes the idea of Trump Tower in pygong

Its a first meeting and nothing was accomplished except Trump without consulting his allies first has promised to stop traininig exercises. See this behavior in context of him leaving the G7 summit to see an enemy (after alienating everyone there) and single handedly deciding to leave the iran deal (alienating allies). He is pissing of friends to maybe earn the friendship of people the USA should not want to be friends with. Its bizarre.

Judging by what trump says (though one should never do this) he seems to believe kim flew home to immediately start dismantling the nuclear weapons program by hand, personally. Instead we have a vague promise to denuclearize the Korean peninsula.

In N Koreas view that actually means also removing the USA nuclear shield over south Korea. Also it ignores the chemical and biological weapons that N Korea has pointed at seoul and elsewhere that could still annihilate the south or at least do serious damage.

Yes America is the greater power. That makes it all the more bizarre to give up things unilaterally when N Koreas bargaining position is only getting stronger. At best he should have said if you stop tests for 3 months, Ill freeze all training exercises up until the date you do another test and then they back on, and I will even increase them.

There is also the greater contect of the fact that trump earned a concession that S Korea already earned a few months ago. There is also that N Korea has a tendency to break deals and so does trump. So ....


It was great !

I hate to say it, but he it seemed to me he went to the table and listened.

It would have been bad form on a first meet up to what bring up humanitarian issues? That doesn’t seem like a civil way to start this. Ultimately, he went .. he talked and didn’t piss them off. So win. I like the fact they are talking about NK coming to the table as the country is actually unraveling internally. This is s theory, but only would be proved with the integration of NK back into the fold.

Something like 80% of South Koreans supported the summit.
https://www.realclea...mit_137245.html

I highly doubt a civil tone would be to point out a country’s inherent flaws, so I don’t see a problem with him flattering a industry. I don’t think I would personally stay and vaca there myself.

Talking to Kim had to occur.. it’s been 7 decades ! Peace ultimately is worth a few concessions if it means bringing Nkorea and really it’s people into a more civilized world. The humanitarian crisis alone that is speculated .. I can’t imagine. It’s worth the effort if it gains traction and holds. The past strategy hasn’t it seems like..

Imagine if it goes posistive.


Yeah if it goes positive then Trump will have met with a dictator who punishes entire generations of families (much like hitler) and allowed him to have a voice on the world stage. This is a man who's family has victimized and brainwashed an entire country.

http://listverse.com...s-prison-camps/

https://www.nytimes....man-rights.html

https://www.independ...n-a7710696.html

https://www.bbc.com/...d-asia-40269546

https://www.reuters....r-idUSKCN1C22XM

You don't meet with hitler you don't meet with dictators as it gives them credence to continue doing what they want to do. Having been to auschwitz and seen first hand the atrocities that were committed there. For the United states to ever give any dictator who does those same things to his people is wrong and against everything thing that our country should stand for.

If you are in support of the meeting in the hopes of peace then you are just like the enables who supported the rise of the third reich. There are some people who you do not negotiate with on an equal basis. Kim jong un is one of them.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#6879 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 03:03 PM

View PostVengeance, on 14 June 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

If you are in support of the meeting in the hopes of peace then you are just like the enables who supported the rise of the third reich. There are some people who you do not negotiate with on an equal basis. Kim jong un is one of them.


Boom. Science.

My grandfather (who fought for the Allies in WWII at age 17; he lied about his age so he could go fight)...I'm glad he's not here to witness such an egregious act by a leader of a Western country.

And let's not pretend that Trump wanted ANYTHING here besides a fucking photo op and a chance to say "I'm doing what no one would do! I'm the best!"....meanwhile not realizing (or more probably not caring) WHY the other leaders DIDN'T meet with this vile, chubby little dictator.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 14 June 2018 - 03:04 PM

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#6880 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:01 PM

I tend to agree with all you guys about who and what Kim Jong Un is, but where Nico is right is that what probably matters most here is how South Korea is taking it. Which is to say regardless of what Trump does -- and believe me, I agree the meeting was a photo op and Trump is reliably going to be a dictator's friend in all situations, one of the only stable things about him -- President Moon is actually the one who deserves any credit for progress. If he can use Trump as a crowbar to pry open peace talks, he seems to be happy to let Trump prance and preen harmlessly around the margins.

The question is when does Trump start doing more harm than good...which seems inevitable, given that -- as I risk sounding like a broken record -- he's one of the dumbest people on the planet. But I'm thinking of Kim Jong Un less like Hitler here and more like David Koresh. Can Moon help the people inside without Trump or Kim setting the whole place on fire?
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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