[worry]

I don't know. That's up to a DT voter to convince them, I suppose. "Words are wind," as they say. You said you didn't know anyone who voted HRC anyway, so you lucked out! All that said, I posted that more for the middle part regarding the protesters' reasons, since Nico has several times now boiled them down to "sore losers", as if this was a normal election. The whole point of DT's campaign was that he was not "normal", so I'm not sure why so many people expect the reaction to be "normal". This was never business as usual.

[Abyss]

The reception of the response would likely depend on the content.

[Nicodimas]

 death rattle, on 13 November 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

 Nicodimas, on 12 November 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

Not really it really depends on what you are protesting?...Protesting and stripping the forefathers ideal's doesn't fit on my spectrum.

What's your answer to these concerns?


(Couple notes: I don't know who Michael Rex is. This was posted in full on the Kissing Fish FB page -- which deals w/ progressive Christian issues -- and I saw it through a couple friends. I wouldn't normally post 'viral' content here but I do think it's at least a decent summary of a point I would have made anyway, and in a more polite voice than I'm prepared to make it, so hopefully it suffices).

I don't have all the answers. I am sure and this part of America's choice seems scary to you.

I can absolutely say Me and You talked about the pendulum swinging...and after Obama being elected x2..the swing right...was going to be fing huge. I know you remember this.

He <Obama> didn't address...a part of America that the left...thinks is "deplorable". This can not happen. You can not ignore and subject the opposite side to your opinions and basically F them over.

That's is the counter to this argument. The swing's are getting larger. We get to see what occurs in the next 4 years.

The swing...might be brutal this time..right and real quick.

Two choices..America loses.

[Nicodimas]

To bring this back to earth..

What is the left's thought of Trump putting 1 trillion toward infrastructure..They have to like this?

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 13 November 2016 - 03:52 AM

[MTS]

 Nicodimas, on 13 November 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

To bring this back to earth..

What is the left's thought of Trump putting 1 trillion toward infrastructure..They have to like this?

I don't know enough about economics to give an opinion on how good an idea it is for driving economic growth. For me it's a decent idea in principle though, as it's an immediate way to spur employment in targeted areas, which was a key part of Trump's appeal.

I'll reserve judgement to see what types of projects are getting funded though. After seeing the shitfight that's gone on over our national broadband network, I know how easily these things can turn into political footballs. America has a great opportunity to become a leader in renewable energy infrastructure for example (which could offset job losses from mining and manufacturing), invest in a new broadband network and revitalise transportation networks, but will that happen with this Congress? Time will tell.

[worry]

I think Obama did address these people, some weren't particularly willing to listen to what he was saying (there's some "truth hurts" elements here, e.g. for coal miners and rust belters), but plenty did get it -- he won his second election after all. It would have been nice to see some prosecutions for the elites, I'll never argue against that. But then a lot of white racist animosity turned the tables on everything once Trayvon Martin was murdered and Republicans exploited it for everything it was worth -- Donald Trump chief among them -- and this weird ongoing myth that Obama was actually "more divisive" grew fangs these last couple years.

That said, HRC very clearly failed to address them. I guess some Dems/libs are angry that HRC was rejected, but a lot of people understand it too (Terez has explained that stuff with aplomb). It's just disconcerting (to put it mildly) that the George Zimmerman of candidates was elected (not just "instead", but "at all"). I know D'rek makes the case that it's a two party system, there were two candidates, people make those compromises every election. But this wasn't "every" election, and as Grief pointed out a couple pages ago, the rise of Trump started long before we were down to two candidates. And to be frank, for all of HRC's flaws, she didn't run a campaign based on human sacrifice, and Donald Trump did. This election showed us just whom a sizable portion of the electorate finds expendable.

---------------------------------------------------------

Re: the infrastructure thing, I'd love a huge injection of infrastructure projects. I do think Trump's claims are pie in the sky, largely because he has zero legitimate plans to cover their costs. May not matter though, since Mitch McConnell has already labeled it not a top priority. http://www.npr.org/2...-first-100-days

[Abyss]

Trump Towers and Trump Hotels are considered 'infrastructure', right?

[MTS]

Quote

* FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars' worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.
...
* SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America's water and environmental infrastructure

Hooray...

[Nicodimas]

Climate change is just left propaganda guys. All they do is funnel money into other shit.

If we really think humanity will be able to terraform a planet.... With technology. some alien Planet. Far far away.....

Earth is fine.

Global warming is the lefts version of pessism. I get it ! I feel pessistic that we owe 20 trillion and 100+ Trillion in promises. I am sure they got that covered early and sooner than "global warming "...

[Mentalist]

 Nicodimas, on 13 November 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Climate change is just left propaganda guys. All they do is funnel money into other shit.

If we really think humanity will be able to terraform a planet.... With technology. some alien Planet. Far far away.....

Earth is fine.

Global warming is the lefts version of pessism. I get it ! I feel pessistic that we owe 20 trillion and 100+ Trillion in promises. I am sure they got that covered early and sooner than "global warming "...

rofl. ionno

I live in Canada for the past 17 years.

there`s certainly been a change in weather patterns during that time.

Winter doesn`t start until January anymore. But it`s harsher than it was 10 yrs ago.

This is empirical proof, I experience on my own skin (quite literally) year after year. I`m not ready to dismiss it as "mere propaganda". B/c when I came to North America back in 1999, there used to be proper snow and winter in December. Now it's no longer the case.

[Nicodimas]

^ No no.. I get it . I am sure humans have messed up the world.

.....You have to consider .. America may no longer be the power. What occurs then?

You just have too...

I think America's debt bomb goes off far sooner, than climate change does. Trump is going to put some stuff into play you don't like to keep America viable.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 13 November 2016 - 07:04 AM

[Nicodimas]

All I'm saying is global climate change will roughly occur on the same timeline America debt catches up.

If you feel climate change is important it's probably equal to the debt load.

[MTS]

 Nicodimas, on 13 November 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

^ No no.. I get it . I am sure humans have messed up the world.

.....You have to consider .. America may no longer be the power. What occurs then?

You just have too...

So we've messed up the world, but not the climate? Not sure what you're getting at. Ment's right though, it's gotten to the point where climate change is actually directly observable even to those who have just left high school.

Quote

I think America's debt bomb goes off far sooner, than climate change does. Trump is going to put some stuff into play you don't like to keep America viable.

This statement is incredibly short-sighted. What happens when increased temperatures reduce agricultural yields (a $750bn industry in America), and more frequent natural disasters wreck valuable infrastructure? How 'viable' will America (or the world for that matter) be then?

Quote

All I'm saying is global climate change will roughly occur on the same timeline America debt catches up.

If you feel climate change is important it's probably equal to the debt load.

Debt can potentially be forgiven or renegotiated though, we can't renegotiate the climate.

This post has been edited by MTS: 13 November 2016 - 07:22 AM

[Tsundoku]

Trump wants to invest heavily into public infrastructure? That's quite laudable.

Kinda reminds me of this guy a while back ... can't recall his name - a far-right winger, not too fond of minorities. His government invested heavily in their country's infrastructure and basically "spent their way out of debt" by creating a situation where the increased efficiencies in the economy paid back what they spent on the new/improved infrastructure. Lots of government projects. I think roads were a big part of it.

Dammit, name's on the tip of my tongue ... whatever happened to him anyway?

This post has been edited by Captain Needa: 13 November 2016 - 08:17 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

Don't worry I'm sure Hitler'll come to you...

[Nicodimas]

 Captain Needa, on 13 November 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Trump wants to invest heavily into public infrastructure? That's quite laudable.

Kinda reminds me of this guy a while back ... can't recall his name - a far-right winger, not too fond of minorities. His government invested heavily in their country's infrastructure and basically "spent their way out of debt" by creating a situation where the increased efficiencies in the economy paid back what they spent on the new/improved infrastructure. Lots of government projects. I think roads were a big part of it.

Dammit, name's on the tip of my tongue ... whatever happened to him anyway?

http://content.time....1906879,00.html

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 13 November 2016 - 08:38 AM

[Nicodimas]

In 4 years politics will be only talking about debt and how it got here, how to fix it, who to blame ..

That this is all new information.

[EmperorMagus]

 Nicodimas, on 13 November 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

In 4 years politics will be only talking about debt and how it got here, how to fix it, who to blame ..

That this is all new information.

Nico debt only matters if there are people there to care. Climate change will fuck so many people all over the world in the next decades that no one, and I mean no one, would give a fuck about US debt.

Just think about it, what happens if the US suddenly declares bankruptcy or if they decide to cut off all government spending to pay off the debt? 350 mil people in the US get fucked over for a decade and maybe the world economy takes a hit. A few rainy day funds will be no more and a lot of people will have to work longer than they intended to. So what? Who gives a fuck. 350 million people in the US are nothing (no offense Americans, just talking big picture).

So what happens if nothing is done about global warming? First of all, those 350 people in the US will get fucked far worse than they got fucked by the debt. Why? Billions (and I mean billions, current estimate are that the entirety of rice fields in mainland China will be unusable due to climate change in a few decades) will be going without food. Billions will have to become refugees because their homes are going underwater (think all of the pacific Islands and anyone living near water almost anywhere). You thought the Syrian refugee crisis was bad? How are you going to deal with this shit? Nothing will be shielding the US from the crisis. America is not a special snowflake.

And to the people saying that "science will figure this shit out". Yeah, science has figured this shit out, STOP EMITTING GREENHOUSE GASSES.

But of course the Koch brothers and their friends gotta make their money. Money talks in this world of ours.

Global warming and the US debt are nothing similar. WCS scenario US stops paying pensions and medicare and pays back the debt. Yeah old and sick people will suffer horribly but that's it (not to lessen their suffering at all. but it's not comparable). It's not comparable to an extinction level event and anyone who compares it doesn't understand what climate change is.

Just to add to that, what we're experiencing right now is worse than the worst case scenario for climate change was 30 years ago. What politicians are banking on with their treaties is that the best case scenarios according to current models will come to pass.

We know these treaties won't have any effect. I'm absolutely certain that the best case scenario will not be coming true.

If you guys have any money buy land in Siberia and northern Canada. I hear it's going to be prime agricultural land in three decades.

[Abyss]

 MTS, on 13 November 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

Quote

...
* SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America's water and environmental infrastructure

Hooray...

To be fair, the US has been signalling irritation at paying money to the UN basically to facilitate the UN shitting in the US for a while now.

[Cause]

 Abyss, on 13 November 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

 MTS, on 13 November 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

Quote

...
* SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America's water and environmental infrastructure

Hooray...

To be fair, the US has been signalling irritation at paying money to the UN basically to facilitate the UN shitting in the US for a while now.

The UN is deeply flawed. One vote per country is a pointless system but nor can we give India and china essentially 1/7th of all the votes each either. It has been destined for failure from the beginning.