[HoosierDaddy]

Mezla PigDog, on 09 November 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 09 November 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

2. No voting holiday

I was looking last night UK time at what time to expect results and it said that voting closed at like 6.30pm in some states. Is that right? In the UK it is always open until 10pm so even if you have had a long day you can always squeeze it in. And I noticed you mentioned you couldn't park to vote. I've voted in 4 different places in the UK and the polling station has been less than a 5min walk in 3 of those places and 10mins in one. Are polling places few and far between in the US?

They are all intertwined, Mez.

Polling places are a few miles away. However:

1. My polling place (suburban, white dominant community) had like 40 machines. Urban areas (far more heavily populated) have far fewer on average.
2. Suburbs are full of white people or rural people (who all heavily vote Republican)
3. We have no holiday voting. *rabble rabble rabble constitutional amendment rabble rabble
4. Polls close at 6 in most of Indiana and Kentucky, and goes time zone by time zone, but that's because America is HUGE.

Mostly I (we) lost is because Hillary is hated, Trump is loved by mid and lower level income whites, and the minorities didn't come out like they did for Obama.

[worry]

edit: @Gorefest
That's true. And at least rhetorically they have in fact been ignored by the DNC (another part of Bernie's appeal is he didn't leave them out). The fact that Dem policies are generally > GOP policies for poor and working class whites doesn't seem to matter as much as them feeling (and often being) left out of the conversation. The GOP -- particularly Trump -- has made hay of bringing them into the conversation, albeit in the most misleading, easy scapegoating-everyone-but-the-elites manner, but Dem establishment hasn't quite picked up on the obvious answer. Pres Obama himself has actually been better than average on that front -- but for some reason it doesn't seem to get through. Plus he understands the nuances (things like 'privilege'), which white people just don't wanna hear.

This post has been edited by death rattle: 09 November 2016 - 09:57 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

I forgot you guys have electronic voting. I guess there is a lot to be said for a slip of paper, stubby pencil on a string and plastic box with a lock on it!

I know in the developed world it is unfeasible that voting methodology would change the outcome by a significant margin but to vote by 6pm would take quite an effort for me average white woman with 9-5 job and ~1hr commute. I would have to get permission to be out of work early to vote. Turnout would definitely be a lot lower here with that time of poll closure.

Edit - and it also means you miss out on the pointless election night entertainment of random people running around with boxes of votes and others desperately counting slips in order to be first to declare. I just don't get what Sunderland are so obsessed by

This post has been edited by Mezla PigDog: 09 November 2016 - 10:06 PM

[Gnaw]

Gnaw, on 09 August 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

King Briar, on 09 August 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

I'm loln at this stupid blood comment explosion in news. Move the fuck on.

In the wise words of the great O'Neill*, sticking your fingers in your ears and humming loudly helps. If that doesn't work, you can try beating your head against a brick wall. Unfortunately I think we're all going to be spending the next few months doing such things. Trump will not be going away anytime soon; he could very well be our Berlusconi.




*waves at Worry* I hope you're right.

*two "L"s

My schadenfreude has limits. But I'm wallowing in it today.

May [insert name of deity of choice here] have mercy on our souls for our country is fucked.

Warren2020!!!

[Hairshirt]

Gorefest, on 09 November 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:

It seems to me that the biggest group of Trump voters are white Americans - both male and female - from the suburbs or rural areas who often are even reasonably well off, but are scared of change: immigration, changing morals and attitudes, fear of an upset to their ingrained ways of life, etc. They don't care about things that happen outside of their community, they just want the Stepford Wives lifestyle to be protected and shielded from anything that doesnt fit in with their very framed view of how things ought to be. The only contact they have with the world is what is bombarded at them on a daily basis through populist media outlets such as Fox who tell them that terrorists are coming to destroy their churches and devious big city people who will turn their kids gay and rape babies.

That's all we see here on tv when they pull a Trump voter in front of the camera anyway: they all seem to be white middle class types from little church communities who 'want their country back' (back from what?) and who want to be 'proud' and live in the 'judeo-christian' tradition (whatever that means). I imagine the majority of them have never even spoken to a Muslim or had any immigrants threatening their jobs, it's just that their traditional local job positions have moved to the big cities or made obsolete by big supermarkets and other big corporations. It's fear, not malice.

This is why people voted for Trump. For ignorant far reaching, over exaggerated statements like this. You just insulted half the country and seem to think it's ok. This is what led to the anger that put Trump in office. Instead of listening to their concearns the DNC and the media has insulted them the entire election.

Just remember, Obama won Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and North Carolina but somehow these states reverted to uneducated racist hillbillies and hilljillies? No. They felt ignored, and insulted by elites and they abandoned the Democrats. The DNC has only itself and Hillary to blame.

This post has been edited by Hairshirt: 09 November 2016 - 10:14 PM

[worry]

How are you under the impression that what you are saying is somehow mutually exclusive from what Gorefest is saying? Most people who voted for Trump aren't the alt-right. They aren't racist to the same degree at all. But whatever their concerns or feelings, it still matters that they were okay with voting for a candidate who explicitly courted the alt-right, who is overtly racist and sexist and predatory in so many ways. The dissatisfaction is there; we recognize it. That doesn't excuse pushing everybody else out of the lifeboat.

[HoosierDaddy]

I automatically discount anyone who mentions the DNC or RNC in a rant because they are obviously biased.

Trump is NOT the RNC. Hillary is NOT the DNC. They have major differences, but of course these monolithic parties control all of their candidates.

See one Donald Trump to dismiss that idea. His party halfway hates him. You think the Bernie supporters were all DNC hacks as well?

[worry]

Well I think DNC and RNC can be shorthand for "establishment" -- and here Hillary was that, and Trump was not that (some think he's a true outsider/iconoclast, I've argued he's a blank slate that will let the establishment mostly get its way). But I do take your point, and it's one of the detriments of people thinking of the government as faceless and somehow not human.

[Siergiej]

Just logged in to say that I agree with what Ment wrote here 100%. Spot on man.

Mentalist, on 09 November 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Apt, on 09 November 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

So, I've been staying out of this thread for months because US policts doesn't really interest me that much, but... Is the above hyperbole the common opinion of the Malazan Empire?

You seriously think the economy is going to tank? That abortions are going to be abolished? That the justice system is going to be dismantled, etc? You're all acting like the sky is falling.

Don't you see any similarities between your predictions of the election (Trump has no chance) and your predictions of what's going to happen in the next 4 years? (The world is ending)

Trump is a business man. He's going to run the White House like the Chairman of the Board. He'll have head hunters that will select the best people (He has The Best People), who are most likely to create political profit and who will make him look good. IE competent people who will make sure the country doesn't hit an iceberg.

Personally I think it's fascinating that Trump is almost certainly your next president. Maybe he's going to fail but at least you're going to try something different for 4 years.

1) A businessman is a terrible choice to run a country. country. A country/government is not a "business". Different priorities, diff demands.

Ukraine elected a billionaire (4th richest man) to be Pres. Within a year he was the richest. Do not recommend.

2) The real reason I'm very concern with this is to do with what Nevyn said- he won with this campaign. You realize that every white supremacist, sexist, and everyyone who is "sick of being PC" and defines himself as "adhering to traditional values" everywhere (but especially in Europe) is now going to feel "vindicated?". If Americans feel it's okay okay to have an openly racist "****y-grabber" as the most powerful man in the world, then it must be okay, everywhere, right?

All those far-right "nutjobs" will now think "it's okay to say what everyone's thinking! It's more than okay- it gets you elec without the hassle of actual politics!" just start saying "what we're all thinking"!

I repeat myself: Brexit, Trump- it's part of a trend. Trump's victory as a populist "outsider" riding the worst of racist, chauvinist rhetoric, is going to promote the trend. HRC's victory, while not amounting to much would've probably restored the status quo, leaving the constructive segment with an opportunity to gain some momentum for an overhaul rather th destruction destruction of the system.

3) if we're gonna talk geopolitics, then yes, absolutely, the swing to the far-right/conservative/"traditionalist" values in the West is to Russia's advantage- b/c they've been effectively developing neo-imperialist rhetoric based on "preserving tradition" against "the decadent West". And no, "talking" (read: "dividing spheres of influence a la Great Powers") is not a step forward. I'm obviously biased (I got 2nd and 3rd cousins in Donbass right now), but "talking" to VVH is as much a step forward as Munich '38 was a "step towards peace for our generation".
(this is without me speculating just how tight Trump's business is with Russian investors. Though given Germany's Schroeder is a major Gazprom stakeholder, that won't surprise me)

Re: point 2, this article in Slate sums it up really well: http://www.slate.com...trump_hate.html

On the policy side I am only afraid of one thing. I am terrified of what Trump's presidency might mean for US policy regarding climate change. A vocal climate denier and supporter of using MORE fossil fuels as the American head of state is terrible news for everyone.

Also, 2020 election is going to be Trump vs Kanye West. Can't wait.

[worry]

If he runs again. It may be worth noting that Trump will actually be the oldest president at inauguration in our history. If HRC had won, she would have gotten 2nd place just behind Ronald Reagan. This was a hella Baby Boomer-infected election.

[HoosierDaddy]

Fuck the baby-boomer's "we deserve everything" bullshit. We'll be paying for their shit for decades (if we are still here).

Deep breaths.

I'm disgusted right now.

[Gorefest]

Hairshirt, on 09 November 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

This is why people voted for Trump. For ignorant far reaching, over exaggerated statements like this. You just insulted half the country and seem to think it's ok. This is what led to the anger that put Trump in office. Instead of listening to their concearns the DNC and the media has insulted them the entire election.

Just remember, Obama won Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and North Carolina but somehow these states reverted to uneducated racist hillbillies and hilljillies? No. They felt ignored, and insulted by elites and they abandoned the Democrats. The DNC has only itself and Hillary to blame.

I think you are misreading my post. I'm actually saying that the Trump voters are not racist or hillbilly or poor or uneducated, in fact the very opposite. Many seem to be reasonably to well-educated folk from small tight-knit communities that feel their traditional values and way of life are threatened by mostly -perceived- threats drummed up by populist media and an intrinsic fear of the unknown or clashing value systems that they do not subscribe to but feel are being pushed on them by a political system that is catering to groups that they do not identify with. Add to that big faceless corporate lobbies and a seeming money/job drain to the big cities and you have a festering grudge-fest on your hands. The typical Trump voter seems very similar to the typical Brexit voter, who also was painted in a corner by global media as uninformed and racist and uneducated. It's that sort of rhetoric which is completely unhelpful and selfperpetuating.

[Vengeance]

HoosierDaddy, on 09 November 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Fuck the baby-boomer's "we deserve everything" bullshit. We'll be paying for their shit for decades (if we are still here).

Deep breaths.

I'm disgusted right now.

Right now it is figured that it will take 3 generations to correct the damage that the boomers have inflicted upon us and the world.

[Hairshirt]

Gorefest, on 10 November 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

Hairshirt, on 09 November 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

This is why people voted for Trump. For ignorant far reaching, over exaggerated statements like this. You just insulted half the country and seem to think it's ok. This is what led to the anger that put Trump in office. Instead of listening to their concearns the DNC and the media has insulted them the entire election.

Just remember, Obama won Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and North Carolina but somehow these states reverted to uneducated racist hillbillies and hilljillies? No. They felt ignored, and insulted by elites and they abandoned the Democrats. The DNC has only itself and Hillary to blame.

I think you are misreading my post. I'm actually saying that the Trump voters are not racist or hillbilly or poor or uneducated, in fact the very opposite. Many seem to be reasonably to well-educated folk from small tight-knit communities that feel their traditional values and way of life are threatened by mostly -perceived- threats drummed up by populist media and an intrinsic fear of the unknown or clashing value systems that they do not subscribe to but feel are being pushed on them by a political system that is catering to groups that they do not identify with. Add to that big faceless corporate lobbies and a seeming money/job drain to the big cities and you have a festering grudge-fest on your hands. The typical Trump voter seems very similar to the typical Brexit voter, who also was painted in a corner by global media as uninformed and racist and uneducated. It's that sort of rhetoric which is completely unhelpful and selfperpetuating.

I did misread it, my apologies. For HD blowing off a rant that mentions the DNC or RNC, I think you misread what I meant. I'm sure it's my fault, I'm terrible at explaining myself. What I meant was the DNC (which coordinates with the candidate to set an agenda) completely misread the mood of the nation which led to a trump victory. Stating that does not make me biased against Democrats, if a coach sets up a terrible game plan and the players lose the game it's everyone's fault. That's what I meant, hopefully that clears it up.

[Mentalist]

Briar King, on 10 November 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

Several cities in protest right now. I'm hoping what I said 2 days ago holds true for this crowd that's it's fast and NO ONE gets hurt in the process. I fully expected this to be the Anti Clinton crowd today.

Lol, this is the West. such protests are doomed. Public perception of govt`s legitimacy is too strong.

And besides, Trump won by the rules. He gamed the system brilliantly, but it was all within the rules.

[EmperorMagus]

Mentalist, on 10 November 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

Briar King, on 10 November 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

Several cities in protest right now. I'm hoping what I said 2 days ago holds true for this crowd that's it's fast and NO ONE gets hurt in the process. I fully expected this to be the Anti Clinton crowd today.

Lol, this is the West. such protests are doomed. Public perception of govt`s legitimacy is too strong.

And besides, Trump won by the rules. He gamed the system brilliantly, but it was all within the rules.

Yeah whatever your personal beliefs, Trump won by the rules. Their protests are justified (as in they have a right to protest) but nothing will come of it. What people need to do is join parties that agree with their beliefs and support those parties through both volunteer and monetary contributions. No amount of election day protesting will change the results.

[Slow Ben]

Mezla PigDog, on 09 November 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

I forgot you guys have electronic voting. I guess there is a lot to be said for a slip of paper, stubby pencil on a string and plastic box with a lock on it!

Not electronic voting everywhere.

We still use the stubby pencils out in the sticks.

[worry]

Mentalist, on 10 November 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

Briar King, on 10 November 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

Several cities in protest right now. I'm hoping what I said 2 days ago holds true for this crowd that's it's fast and NO ONE gets hurt in the process. I fully expected this to be the Anti Clinton crowd today.

Lol, this is the West. such protests are doomed. Public perception of govt`s legitimacy is too strong.

And besides, Trump won by the rules. He gamed the system brilliantly, but it was all within the rules.

That "all within the rules" certainly has an asterisk this year though: https://www.thenatio...-story-of-2016/

[Nevyn]

Wisconsin was not needed to be decisive after Pennsylvania went though (and that state's law was struck down).

And while voter supression is sketchy, doing it through laws passed well in advance of the election would still make it "within the rules".

[worry]

Nevyn, on 10 November 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

And while voter supression is sketchy, doing it through laws passed well in advance of the election would still make it "within the rules".

Hence the asterisk.