[Tsundoku]

Reference the "Podesta emails" released by Wikileaks on the weekend. Real or fake? If real, what are the consequences for HRC? Supposedly those released are only 10% of what they have.

http://www.news.com....c51dd592143f336

http://www.bbc.com/n...s-2016-37595047

This post has been edited by Captain Needa: 10 October 2016 - 12:25 PM

[champ]

Do we have any rules for posting links or quotes from the leaked emails? I've come across some interesting stuff in them, especially about foreign affairs, Libya, British politics etc.

[Primateus]

She had her eye on elevating an extreme republican candidate? Why that sneaky little bitch. That's actually pretty clever, though kinda risky, gambit.

[Vengeance]

champ, on 10 October 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

Do we have any rules for posting links or quotes from the leaked emails? I've come across some interesting stuff in them, especially about foreign affairs, Libya, British politics etc.

Lets not flood the site with quotes from leaked emails. If something is actually relevant in the conversation then link or post. By relevant I mean actually something that hasn't been seen before and is interesting. Not stupid click bate headlines about how Hilary is out of touch because for the last 30 yrs she has been a public person protected by differing levels of security and had financial stability to a degree that normal americans hasn't. That isn't news. Links are better then quotes. That way if someone is actually interested then can read about it and not drown everyone else in pages of quotes.

[Morgoth]

Also, wasn't there some serious questions regarding their legitimazy?

[Una]

Silencer, on 10 October 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

And which countries can Americans relatively easily flee to? I'm not aware of any countries that have easy long-term immigration for the US, given how strict and unaccommodating American immigration policy is.....

I don't actually know. I don't have an American passport. I've never done this before, but I did get to watch all my Hong Kong relatives scatter across the globe as 1997 drew near. There's 2 families that stayed behind, but since things have only gotten worse, I noticed they started sending their kids abroad for school as each one gets old enough and I suspect it's part of a long-term strategy to set up viable escape routes. These are things that people in even relatively stable places get to think about. The first thing I would do is look at if I have any family elsewhere to sponsor me. If one my parents was born somewhere else nice, that would be a relatively easy in, but since they are from Hong Kong and China, where political dissenters are jailed on trumped up charges, usually of "corruption" or "indecency"(sound familiar?), that really doesn't get me any further ahead. The second would be to look at my profession and see if there are any countries that are recruiting. I know there are, but it takes time to get all the certificates and credentials together. That's why the time to do the research is now. Otherwise you end up having to sneak across the border under the cover of night with all your worldly possessions on your back and your toddlers in your arms and/or paying traffickers to take you somewhere on a rickety boat. That's only 1 generation ago for my family.

It sounds like exaggeration, but my father was a refugee and this was only 1 generation ago. You got a guy running for president who thought the Japanese internment was a good idea. That hits too close to home. I am stunned that there is so much complacency about this.

[worry]

Captain Needa, on 10 October 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

Reference the "Podesta emails" released by Wikileaks on the weekend. Real or fake? If real, what are the consequences for HRC? Supposedly those released are only 10% of what they have.

http://www.news.com....c51dd592143f336

http://www.bbc.com/n...s-2016-37595047

I'm not sure this says anything we don't already know. Her ties to Wall Street and "free trade" are kinda just like, yah, that's the stuff we already don't like about her. And while I thought her answer on the private & public stance question was awful last night, that's cuz I think there's a more reasonable, straightforward answer, not cuz I was shocked politicians ever think that way. She's the lesser of two evils not cuz her evil is, across the board, dwarfed by Trump, but because she's a combination of good policies, middling policies, and terrible policies while Trump is 100% terrible policies.

[Hairshirt]

I don't think the emails will change anyone's mind in this dumpster fire of an election. The media won't talk about the emails, and I can't blame them. It's all about ratings, and ad revenue attached to those ratings. So it's understandable they push the raunchy Trump stuff or the rehashed Bill Clinton sexual assault stories. Unfortunately I think this is what both candidates prefer. Trump on one hand is an idiot, who has no actual policies other than "everything sucks, I'll make it awesome". But no actual details of this awesome transformation. Then there's Hillary who seems to have an actual idea of what to do and how to move forward. The problem is no one believes her, her track record of lies is just too great to trust her and what she says.

In any other election the leaked emails would destroy a candidate. But because Trump is so horrible people can't commit to him. I'm fascinated by how voter turnout will shake out. Will people show up or just hang their head in shame and stay home. What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by Hairshirt: 11 October 2016 - 01:54 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Blah, I'm out until I can be calm.

This election is an embarrassment.

I hate no one; respect all; wish for the best of everyone.

Proud Patriot of America.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 11 October 2016 - 02:41 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

FYI: Buyer Beware.

The Brits brought in this sort of campaigning; not nearly at the same level, but an attempt. How's it looking there? Since 1998 or 2002?

[Terez]

Who're you trying to convince here? BK? I think he's our only Trump voter?

[HoosierDaddy]

Terez, on 11 October 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Who're you trying to convince here? BK? I think he's our only Trump voter?

There are others who don't post, Terez.

[EmperorMagus]

HoosierDaddy, on 11 October 2016 - 02:48 AM, said:

FYI: Buyer Beware.

The Brits brought in this sort of campaigning; not nearly at the same level, but an attempt. How's it looking there? Since 1998 or 2002?

The tories in Canada tried to hire a British campaign manager to implement the same sort of tactics in the 2015 election. Thankfully, the guy's use of identity politics horribly backfired and gave a majority government to the liberals.

It was such nice day when that happened, the day Harper resigned.

[Silencer]

HoosierDaddy, on 11 October 2016 - 02:35 AM, said:

Blah, I'm out until I can be calm.

This election is an embarrassment.

I hate no one; respect all; wish for the best of everyone.

Proud Patriot of America.

Aww, I missed this.

Terez, on 11 October 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Who're you trying to convince here? BK? I think he's our only Trump voter?

HoosierDaddy, on 11 October 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:

Terez, on 11 October 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Who're you trying to convince here? BK? I think he's our only Trump voter?

There are others who don't post, Terez.

Yeah, the discussion forum at least has become pretty one-sided for a while. It probably doesn't help that even without someone like Trump as their candidate, the GOP and American politics in general is far to the right of most other countries politics. E.g. I am (economically at least) considered to be a center-right voter in New Zealand. In the US I'd be at least a Bernie supporter, possibly even left of him on some issues. 'Murica!

And that is a shame. I mean, in this election Trump is indefensible, and the GOP in general has been a little bit too willing to support him, but we're not a partisan forum by design - it's not good for supporters of one of the two major US parties to not be very well represented here.

Though, BK aside, it's hard to imagine someone who could read and enjoy the Malazan books and support Trump at the same time.

[Una]

EmperorMagus, on 11 October 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

The tories in Canada tried to hire a British campaign manager to implement the same sort of tactics in the 2015 election. Thankfully, the guy's use of identity politics horribly backfired and gave a majority government to the liberals.

It was such nice day when that happened, the day Harper resigned.

Yeah. The former immigration minister just made a statement the last few days saying that the whole thing cost them the last election. They proposed a "barbaric cultural practices" tip line, supposedly for people to report if they noticed any child marriages and honour killings going on. Luckily, people recognized it for the dog-whistle that it was, noting that these things were ALREADY illegal in the first place, so it was really just a way to focus suspicion on Brown people. Even the RCMP felt the need to come out and say, and this is as close as I can remember to the exact quote, "If there's an honour killing going on next door, don't call that line. Please call 911 and let the local police handle it."

Identity politics is ugly stuff. There was a spike in hate crimes during that campaign, mostly against women. Because the kind of people who go in for this stuff are usually cowards at heart. I remember one particularly horrific one where the woman was attacked for wearing a hijab and all she was doing was walking to pick up her kid from school. It was just a few blocks from the school. Oh! And some Black girl in Toronto was cornered and harassed by some crazy dude at a metro station because he thought she was wearing a hijab. And the guy was an idiot. She had a scarf wrapped around her head because it was Toronto and it's freezing cold there in October. But she had dark skin and Stephen Harper said veils were un-Canadian, so it was open season to him. I don't want this kind of crap going on in my country, much less with my elected leaders, who should know better, egging it on. The Conservatives deserved the ass-kicking they got. My faith in my country was restored that day. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't lose badly enough though. We needed the send the message that if you try that kind of thing with us, you will lose all your seats and not get to play. It's the only thing they will understand.

And despite all that, the co-originator of that tip line is in the running for Conservative party leader and she is STILL at it. I hope she gets trounced.

The relevance to USA politics, they have a chance to reject this and seem unable to find their feet or something. Come on! We have our differences and we think you are a little bit crazy, but you're better than this! The sooner you shut this down, the sooner you can work on stuff that improves your lives. A real healthcare system would be a good start. Most developed nations have one and I think you deserve one too. I took a peek at Hillary Clinton's platform just now out of curiosity. Pretty much that. It looks pretty reasonable. I would expect some details tweaked and there may be differences of opinion here or there, but overall, I would characterize it as solid, which in government, is mostly what I look for. It should keep you busy for the next 4 years and then you can go from there.

The irony of "Make America Great Again" is that if you think about the times when America, or any other nation, for that matter, is at its greatest, it's the times when they look forward to the future and outward to the world. The guy riding under that banner will do nothing of the sort, as should be clear to anyone who hasn't been sleeping through this thing. Which is why I am all when I read your news. It makes no sense.

This post has been edited by Una: 11 October 2016 - 07:50 AM

[Obdigore]

Hairshirt, on 11 October 2016 - 01:53 AM, said:

Then there's Hillary who seems to have an actual idea of what to do and how to move forward. The problem is no one believes her, her track record of lies is just too great to trust her and what she says.

Please don't say 'no one'. While she isn't the candidate I would have preferred, her voting history and policy stance history line up much better than most of the US' representatives right now.

What lies? Are you talking about the emails, or something more?

Or have you bought into 20 years of GOP attacks upon the name 'Clinton', as if Bill and Hillary are the same person, and there was nothing to attack them about policy wise?

Hillary isn't an amazing public speaker, like Obama. She isn't tapping the distrust and frustration from the youth to the level that Bernie and Trump are. She's a goddamn policy wonk. She wants to actually dig in and propose what she thinks are solutions to problems.

The big question is, are the GOP going to be as hateful towards a woman as they were towards a black?

[Hairshirt]

I refer to her lies specifically. Whether on important issues like the emails and Bengazi, or on just flat out meaningless things like the sniper fire thing. She even lied about the origin of her name! Why????? I probably shouldn't have said "No one" that's true. Keep in mind however 68% of voters found her untrustworthy in polls this summer during the DNA convention. So I'm not the only one who think she's a liar, she admitted she lies when she gave the private/public stance answer at the debate. (I agree with Worry, a terrible answer.)

As for the woman/black question, I don't think anything overt will be said with regards to her being a woman. I do think people will perceive criticism directed towards her as sexist however, justly and unjustly.

[HoosierDaddy]

Una, on 11 October 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 11 October 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

The tories in Canada tried to hire a British campaign manager to implement the same sort of tactics in the 2015 election. Thankfully, the guy's use of identity politics horribly backfired and gave a majority government to the liberals.

It was such nice day when that happened, the day Harper resigned.

Yeah. The former immigration minister just made a statement the last few days saying that the whole thing cost them the last election. They proposed a "barbaric cultural practices" tip line, supposedly for people to report if they noticed any child marriages and honour killings going on. Luckily, people recognized it for the dog-whistle that it was, noting that these things were ALREADY illegal in the first place, so it was really just a way to focus suspicion on Brown people. Even the RCMP felt the need to come out and say, and this is as close as I can remember to the exact quote, "If there's an honour killing going on next door, don't call that line. Please call 911 and let the local police handle it."

Identity politics is ugly stuff. There was a spike in hate crimes during that campaign, mostly against women. Because the kind of people who go in for this stuff are usually cowards at heart. I remember one particularly horrific one where the woman was attacked for wearing a hijab and all she was doing was walking to pick up her kid from school. It was just a few blocks from the school. Oh! And some Black girl in Toronto was cornered and harassed by some crazy dude at a metro station because he thought she was wearing a hijab. And the guy was an idiot. She had a scarf wrapped around her head because it was Toronto and it's freezing cold there in October. But she had dark skin and Stephen Harper said veils were un-Canadian, so it was open season to him. I don't want this kind of crap going on in my country, much less with my elected leaders, who should know better, egging it on. The Conservatives deserved the ass-kicking they got. My faith in my country was restored that day. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't lose badly enough though. We needed the send the message that if you try that kind of thing with us, you will lose all your seats and not get to play. It's the only thing they will understand.

And despite all that, the co-originator of that tip line is in the running for Conservative party leader and she is STILL at it. I hope she gets trounced.

The relevance to USA politics, they have a chance to reject this and seem unable to find their feet or something. Come on! We have our differences and we think you are a little bit crazy, but you're better than this! The sooner you shut this down, the sooner you can work on stuff that improves your lives. A real healthcare system would be a good start. Most developed nations have one and I think you deserve one too. I took a peek at Hillary Clinton's platform just now out of curiosity. Pretty much that. It looks pretty reasonable. I would expect some details tweaked and there may be differences of opinion here or there, but overall, I would characterize it as solid, which in government, is mostly what I look for. It should keep you busy for the next 4 years and then you can go from there.

The irony of "Make America Great Again" is that if you think about the times when America, or any other nation, for that matter, is at its greatest, it's the times when they look forward to the future and outward to the world. The guy riding under that banner will do nothing of the sort, as should be clear to anyone who hasn't been sleeping through this thing. Which is why I am all when I read your news. It makes no sense.

Una, you are preaching to the choir about most of these things. There are very few board members, but they exist as stated above, that will vote Trump.

The people you are trying to reach would almost never read Malazan, and if they do, they generally moderate a bit. A very small bit.

That being said, I ain't leaving no matter what; if everyone with principles left, could you imagine? We have like 3,000 nuclear missiles ready to go at a whim. A navy that can strike anywhere in the world within hours. Can't leave that unless you are being persecuted, and Hitler had an opposition as well.

Godwin'd.

[Morgoth]

Hairshirt, on 11 October 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

I refer to her lies specifically. Whether on important issues like the emails and Bengazi, or on just flat out meaningless things like the sniper fire thing. She even lied about the origin of her name! Why????? I probably shouldn't have said "No one" that's true. Keep in mind however 68% of voters found her untrustworthy in polls this summer during the DNA convention. So I'm not the only one who think she's a liar, she admitted she lies when she gave the private/public stance answer at the debate. (I agree with Worry, a terrible answer.)

As for the woman/black question, I don't think anything overt will be said with regards to her being a woman. I do think people will perceive criticism directed towards her as sexist however, justly and unjustly.

What lies did she tell about Benghazi?

[worry]

For the record, I think her answer on the public/private thing was cagey and ill-explained, but it wasn't a lie, even the Lincoln stuff (as absurd as it may sound). She seems very much to be the wonk, as Obdi says, who has trouble translating very inside-politics concepts to the layman (and she knows it). I'm sure we've all had teachers/professors who could do that very well, and those who had very little ability (spectrumy math and science teachers in particular). That coupled with her defensiveness/caginess does not come off well, for sure. I don't think she's any more of a "liar" than other politicians though, and is probably less of one than most. Her being a "liar" is kind of a right-wing meme, and it's effective in part because people are cynical about all politicians in that way. Her being a politician in other ways though -- overly cautious, crafted speech, moderate (as euphemism for milquetoast), late to social justice issues rather than leading on them, hawkishness, etc. -- those are the bigger problems on the left. So she's definitely not a leftist, but it may even be that she's more liberal (in terms of her voting record) than people give her credit for too, at least by American standards.