[amphibian]

Mentalist, on 02 June 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Both parties are essentially gigantic conglomerates of business interests, roughly split (mostly for show) on a few "hot button" issues (guns, drugs, same sex marriages, abortions, etc)

Any meaningful politician in US has to adopt one of the 2 "ideologies", or become a perpetual outsider.

Re: the article above. It's ironic that the "anti-establishment" voters may end up voting in a "rougher", populist establishment candidate to spite the more "refined" Establishment candidate.

In any case, as the saying goes in politics back home "do not underestimate the amortization potential of the established institutions".

Is "amortization" the correct word? Because in American English, this doesn't make sense.

Futhermore, the politician doesn't actually have to adopt a particular ideology - just sign up for Red or Blue and work their preferred ideologies from there. The actual center between the two parties (where one blurs into the other) has moved rightwards since Jimmy Carter's time, but there's still a wide range to play within the individual party chunks of the spectrum.

[Mentalist]

Yes, I know NA English only uses the word in context of mortgages. But its original meaning "slowing down via resistance" is what we're going for here.

[worry]

I'm not gonna argue that there's zero appeal in the anti-establishment vs establishment line, or that Trump isn't a cult of personality that (by far) outshone his primary competitors, but I will argue that the #1 reason that is true is that Trump doesn't bother dog-whistling his racism and the others do. So even though Trump's racist policies aren't far-removed from GOP orthodoxy, his competitors seemed less racist than him, and thus were less appealing.

Two pretty major studies that I just read about today:

Trump supporters can be identified most accurately by what they think of African Americans and Muslims -- that's more readily than their religion, their economic stance, and even their party affiliation:
http://www.vox.com/2...eligion-economy

In line with that, people who show the most concern about (ie disdain for) immigrants, Islam, and racial diversity feel the most "warmth" towards Trump:
http://www.pewresear...ants-diversity/

These issues outweigh everything, including the economy and related "anxiety".

Clinton's apparent lack of appeal, on the other hand, is a weird combination of her reputation as a slick say-anything politician, real sexism, staff and public support incompetence (particularly the #HillaryMen and other DC insiders), her genuinely spotty record, and over-familiarity generally. But I think that article overstates the uphill battle she faces, as if Clinton winning by like 3-5 points doesn't count as a win cuz it isn't a total Reagan-style blowout.

[worry]

He's getting pushback on his racism on all sides (barring those who stand to benefit), as he's attacking even the federal judge presiding over the Trump U case.




I wonder what Trump is learning about the GOP at large now that he's not just playing to the base. Is he gonna find out that they're not all on the same racist page, or is he gonna find out that hmm yah maybe it isn't just the fringe of the party that agrees with him?

[Tsundoku]

Was tossing up whether to put this in the guns thread, but decided on here because even though it's another country, it's to do with a Presidential election, there's repeated references to Trump and I can't help thinking ... is this what USA gun advocate groups want to see?

Did this play a part in his election win? Seems like it might have. It's near my part of the world and I confess I had absolutely no idea about it.

Holy shit.

http://www.news.com....961354cf36ffe87

(ASIDE: do we need a "What do we do about crime?" thread? Do we already have one?)

EDIT: just scrolled through 22 pages of DB thread titles. Wow, we've covered some wide-ranging stuff!

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 06 June 2016 - 09:09 AM

[worry]

So the AP does some canvassing of superdelegates, and enough say they support Clinton at this point that AP virtually crowns her the nominee (and there's nothing "virtual" about most outlets reporting on this). And this news the day before the California primary. Like one might wonder, how did she jump the delegate threshold over the weekend? Well if it sounds like cynical, disgusting power-broking from the fourth estate to you, you aren't alone. It's not like I think Bernie will win CA or even if he did that he wouldn't still have a nearly impossible feat ahead, but it's still blatant shilling and anti-democratic . Sanders made a fool of the media, defying their fringe cook narrative, and now they've got their revenge.

[worry]

Not to ignore you, Tsundoku. I just don't have a response to that article that isn't 99% bile.

[Gnaw]

worry, on 07 June 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Not to ignore you, Tsundoku. I just don't have a response to that article that isn't 99% bile.

Only 99%?

[worry]

Yeah, 1% is morbid curiosity.

[Tiste Simeon]

worry, on 07 June 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

it's still blatant shilling and anti-democratic .

I kind of feel like this could be the tagline for the entire process since day 1...

[Gorefest]

Welcome to the age of neo-liberalism, where personal freedoms and security have been squandered to the big corporations.

A huge backlash is slowly building in the West, which is probably the reason why Trump is riding so high and the Brexit camp in the UK is running a race that is too close to call despite its standard bearers being some of the most nasty, feckless, or ridiculous characters that UK politics has ever produced. Disenfranchisement and loss of belief runs rampant.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 08 June 2016 - 10:38 AM

[Tsundoku]

The morbidly pessimistic part of me isn't wondering if we're becoming a plutocracy, but when.

When us 99% will look back and say "Yup, that precise point there is where we surrendered our last chance of avoiding serfdom and penury."

I want Wall St and their ilk to be terrified of govt, rather than owning them and treating the rest of us with utter contempt as they race to build the most expensive yachts, houses etc. Arseholes, the lot of them.

Libertarians, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it, which would be the strong dominating the weak and no protection from govt. Debt slavery will make a fashionable comeback, for a start.

Then again, surely most of the truly rich understand that they need customers more than they need servants?

EDIT: I do so love how the most ardent Republicans and/or Trump fans don't realise that they are supporting the very people they supposedly want to punish and need protection from.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 08 June 2016 - 11:43 AM

[Gorefest]

Tsundoku, on 08 June 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Then again, surely most of the truly rich understand that they need customers more than they need servants?

If we are getting cynical, you could say that a customer is just a servant who hasn't realised yet that their 'spare time' is being manipulated. Commercials, package holidays, luxury goods. Sparkly things to blunt the senses.

[Tsundoku]

Bread and circuses man, bread and circuses. Religion is no longer the opiate of the western masses, now it's Kardashians.

Part of me would take perverse pleasure from Tea Party entusiasts et al getting the "small govt" they wished for. Trouble is though, that shit would end up affecting me, and that's just not on.

If there was a way to let them have their fondest electoral wank fantasy in isolation, I'd say let them have it, and smile.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 08 June 2016 - 11:55 AM

[Vengeance]

Tsundoku, on 08 June 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Bread and circuses man, bread and circuses. Religion is no longer the opiate of the western masses, now it's Kardashians.

Part of me would take perverse pleasure from Tea Party entusiasts et al getting the "small govt" they wished for. Trouble is though, that shit would end up affecting me, and that's just not on.

If there was a way to let them have their fondest electoral wank fantasy in isolation, I'd say let them have it, and smile.

They did it in Kansas, and it is the shitshow you would expect.

http://www.theatlant...-kansas/396398/

http://www.kansascit...le63908242.html

[Macros]

Decided to run the gauntlet of the comment section on the atlantic article on Kansas, came across this:

I'm a Minnesotan. We have found that you get what you pay for. The largest portion of our budget goes to schools. Incidentally, our public schools are in the top 3-5 in the country, depending on measure. The next largest portion of our budget goes to health care. Incidentally, we consistentely have the top-ranked medical care and healthiest population in the country. Also incidentally, we have the second lowest rate of incarceration in the country. It's almost as though, if the government spends money on the right things, it can provide a high quality of life for its citizens.


This an anyway accurate statement?
And if so, why isn't it being broadcast to every other state for digestion?

This post has been edited by Macros: 08 June 2016 - 08:59 PM

[Macros]

Oh dear, I shouldn't have bothered getting sucked into that vortex of....well....gobshites

[Nicodimas]

Remember when those cables were leaked from anon , many foreign powers consider America a Plutocracy. The path America has taken over the last several decades set this path.

Interesting suggestion Macros Arizona dead last education, healthcare and 9th highest incarcernation. I wouldn't be suprised and would like to see what could be find out about the private prisons, local tough law, etc factor into that.. I could believe it.

http://www.sentencin...2Option=Arizona

https://smartasset.c...eople-in-prison

@: Tsundoku: I would argue that libertarians aren't being very realistic in the way it all plays/played out. They think the strong will have their best interests at heart and completely forget that people really never have. It's weird we have the 2nd to protect us against individuals. Right? Where is the protection against the corporate overloads. I don't have a solution except the rule of law is very important. Wall Street and the complexes and special interests it supports have really become everything those libertarians have feared. The super rich are so out of touch with reality.. They don't exist on our level and don't have our, the citizens, interests at heart... (Blanket statement-> but you know what I mean as realize there's a ton of great people out there, but some need to go to jail and not pass go) I guess wishing for a small government doesn't make sense if there is no check and balances to the new and established megacorporations. And hey maybe in 100 years that's what we will see a bunch of mega corps that the rule of law doesn't apply too...Rambling now, but you get the point.

hope that made sense typing from my cell. Gotta work

Quote

Debt slavery will make a fashionable comeback, for a start.

The very definition of this statement is non-dischargeable student loan debt <for a highly suspect degree> and payday loans. Read this in particular and remember this is Legal and feels like a Onion article..

http://www.zerohedge...e-subprime-auto

We are already there...

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 08 June 2016 - 09:54 PM

[Vengeance]

Macros, on 08 June 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

Decided to run the gauntlet of the comment section on the atlantic article on Kansas, came across this:

I'm a Minnesotan. We have found that you get what you pay for. The largest portion of our budget goes to schools. Incidentally, our public schools are in the top 3-5 in the country, depending on measure. The next largest portion of our budget goes to health care. Incidentally, we consistentely have the top-ranked medical care and healthiest population in the country. Also incidentally, we have the second lowest rate of incarceration in the country. It's almost as though, if the government spends money on the right things, it can provide a high quality of life for its citizens.


This an anyway accurate statement?
And if so, why isn't it being broadcast to every other state for digestion?

Pretty accurate. Minnesota has done things right. It is even better then that. They have very low unemployment and just across the boarder in Wisconsin where they elected another tea party idiot the schools have gone to shit, the unemployment has gone up. But hey they outlawed teachers unions so....

[Vengeance]

Macros, on 08 June 2016 - 09:15 PM, said:

Oh dear, I shouldn't have bothered getting sucked into that vortex of....well....gobshites

Never read the comments.