[Cause]

Silencer, on 16 August 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

I caught a bit of it in Stephen Colbert's monologue. Sounded crazy so I went and found a transcript:

https://www.cnbc.com...conference.html

He's such a terrible speaker. I'm looking at his statements and you can sort of single out some cognizant and noteworthy arguments that he wants to defend, like historical statues having more meaning than just being symbols of racism or the violent nature of groups like Antifa - But then he just drowns his arguments in word garble and narcissism.

I don't know whether to be amazed at how honest he is willing to be or just how at being a lying politician he is.

I imagine he is going to be used in media training courses for decades to come.

If by media training courses you mean as some sort of Kobayashi Maru final test thing on how to handle deranged Presidents, then sure!

But seriously, what bothers me are the amount of people still publicly defending him - usually by trying to draw parallels to BLM and Antifa and crying about how liberals "never complained about violence then" - despite the fact that said violence was denounced, never mind the fact that it was a whole hell of a lot closer to being justified than this shit - and how anyone can claim that both sides were to blame. I mean, you can argue that both sides had to be present for someone to get hurt but that's kinda like saying indigenous populations are equally to blame for imperialism. Sure, they had to be there to be enslaved, murdered, and conquered but that doesn't equate to blame, in most sane people's books.

Trump didn't become president by himself. The scary thing is that a greater percentage of America than anyone would like to admit enables him.

A lot of people didn't support him for this, but a lot of people must have.

[Macros]

If there was true nationwide outrage he would have been ousted from the white house by now and his cronies would be chased out as well

[Malankazooie]

Truth

[QuickTidal]

A few things.

1. Apparently some states are now quitely removing Confederate monuments and statues, after Charlottesville. This is good.

2. That news conference was a 17 minute, wall-to-wall shitshow that showed Trumps REAL feelings about the situation (remembering that his father was once arrested at a KKK rally...apple didn't fall far from the tree apparently) and should (SHOULD...but likely won't) be the straw that broke the Republican's support of him. Nazis are Nazis. Fucking call them out, you racist asshole.

3. This VICE Documentary/New segment where one of the reporters embedded with the Nazis is very chilling. Also, please note that we above the border are NOT safe from having these assholes amongst our country as well...since one of the first people who identifies himself is a Canadian who came down to march in the Asshole Nazi parade...these reprehensible clowns just make me remember the neo-nazi skinheads who attended my high school. This shit isn't new by a long shot.



4. Here is Jim Jeffries unflinching take on the subject, which is similarly echoed by people like Kimmel, Colbert, Fallon and Co.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 August 2017 - 01:19 PM

[Cause]

Scary stuff.

I like the chanting though. Very catchy. Appreciate the way 'you will not replace usc can so easily morph to 'Jews will not replace us'. The tikki torches as others have said is a beautiful touch.

The real interesting thing to me is when the white nationalist speaks to the one from Canada they talk to each other but say nothing. They know the dance, the forms. The questions and answers are all expected. They are not actually saying anything. Just recognizing that their viewpoints align. This is one of the biggest problems today that I see. The internet allows us to be exposed to every view but what we seem to do as people is just reach out to everyone who already shares our view and dismiss as nonsense every view that disagrees with ours.

[Aptorian]

I've begun to hate Jim Jeffries. He's somewhat funny when he's doing stand up about being drunk and doing dumb stuff. Unfortunately that persona doesn't really work when he appears on talk shows, where he's being serious and has to sound like he's actually thought any of his arguments through.

It's like Larry the Cable guy commenting on the current political climate.

[QuickTidal]

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

I've begun to hate Jim Jeffries. He's somewhat funny when he's doing stand up about being drunk and doing dumb stuff. Unfortunately that persona doesn't really work when he appears on talk shows, where he's being serious and has to sound like he's actually thought any of his arguments through.

It's like Larry the Cable guy commenting on the current political climate.

He's pretty spot on in the above clip though.

[Aptorian]

Is he? Or is he just scoring the same easy political points that the rest of the talk show hosts are making views with?

Every supporter of the South's history isn't necessarily a racist.

Being proud of your southern heritage isn't just something that means you're "European-American".

Every person who clashed with the Nazi rallies aren't necessarily great people.

Trumps father perhaps being a KKK supporter does not make Trump a KKK supporter.

Not stating outright that Nazis are bad people does not make you a supporter of Nazis.

Waiting 2 days to confirm that "Yes, nazis are bad" does not make you a supporter of nazis.

Etc, etc.

I think people are pushing the narrative further than Trumps indecisive and convoluted word garble actually supports. I'm seeing headlines now that state that Trump supports Neo Nazis. It's out of hand. People are working them selves up into a frenzy.

This Nazi rally is being used as a means to break ties and force people's hands. Everybody now has to come out and make that easy statement "Nazis are bad" and if they don't say it just right, well then clearly they are Nazis.

Trump is an idiot but I find it just as likely that he is ignorant, completely tone deaf and out of touch, as the notion that he is a secret nazi working to undermine America.

This post has been edited by Seduce Goose: 16 August 2017 - 05:10 PM

[QuickTidal]

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Is he? Or is he just scoring the same easy political points that the rest of the talk show hosts are making views with?

Every supporter of the South's history isn't necessarily a racist.

When its imagery (flags) and leaders of a war which was fought about slavery and owning slaves. Yes, yes it is racist.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Being proud of your southern heritage isn't just something that means you're "European-American".

"southern heritage" is a phrase that simply means they side with Confederate ideologies and not American ones. It would be different if they said American heritage (and include all the bad and good that comes along with that)..but "southern heritage" very clearly points at a specific period of time end events.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Every person who clashed with the Nazi rallies aren't necessarily great people.

Did anyone argue about "great people"? But if you are at a rally and are on the side opposing Nazi's and racists...you are in better shape than said nazis and racists.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Trumps father perhaps being a KKK supporter does not make Trump a KKK supporter.

No, but his speech last night did.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Not stating outright that Nazis are bad people does not make you a supporter of Nazis.

Yes. Yes it does. Want to know why? It's easy. The Nazi's were evil-incarnate. Saying they were evil and that anyone who associates with their symbology or sayings is also of that cloth...is easy. Like look, I said it at the beginning of this comment. Nazi's are evil. Nazi's in the 1930's and 40's were evil, and every Neo-Nazi-associating person who has existed since then are evil. See? Easy.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Waiting 2 days to confirm that "Yes, nazis are bad" does not make you a supporter of nazis.

Are we going to pretend that his contrition on the point (which was caused by obvious political and moral pressure and nothing else) isn't an example of someone reading a goddamned script written by others which he didn't agree with. It's literally like watching an actor cold-read a piece ion dialogue. Meanwhile, his speech last night which was obviously NOT written before by anyone...is much more telling of the man.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

I think people are pushing the narrative further than Trumps indecisive and convoluted word garble actually supports. I'm seeing headlines now that state that Trump supports Neo Nazis. It's out of hand. People are working them selves up into a frenzy.

He was given THREE opportunities to do the right thing. Three. And he didn't.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Trump is an idiot but I find it just as likely that he is ignorant, completely tone deaf and out of touch, as the notion that he is a secret nazi working to undermine America.

No. It's not. He's an idiot, but there is no excuse for saying things the way he said them initially...and then to script out a second "forced" statement the way he did...an then double down on the first statement last night? No. He knows EXACTLY what he's doing and saying. You don't think there are people around him who have probably TOLD him how bad he sounded? Look at Kelly in that video of the conference last night. He can't even look UP. He knows damned well Trump went off script after he was very certainly told that this would be bad.

So no, he doesn't get to use the ignorance defence.

[Aptorian]

I can already see I am walking in to a lake full of hot water and poo here but why not just dive in!

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Is he? Or is he just scoring the same easy political points that the rest of the talk show hosts are making views with?

Every supporter of the South's history isn't necessarily a racist.

When its imagery (flags) and leaders of a war which was fought about slavery and owning slaves. Yes, yes it is racist.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Being proud of your southern heritage isn't just something that means you're "European-American".

"southern heritage" is a phrase that simply means they side with Confederate ideologies and not American ones. It would be different if they said American heritage (and include all the bad and good that comes along with that)..but "southern heritage" very clearly points at a specific period of time end events.

The flags and the statues are more than symbols of slavery or racism. They also have cultural, historical significance. Erasing your history does not unmake it. While I'm not sure Trump actually thought that far, he had a point when he began to ask "What about Lincoln? What about Jefferson?" etc. What happens when all those Southern figures have been erased and suppressed? Who's next? There is a risk of eroding your own history and your own culture if you go down that path.

I prefer the idea of owning that imagery and telling the full story, rather than tearing down statues that have stood for a century.

Do you heal the divide by stigmatizing the notion of southern heritage? I don't know if it would help but I think it's misplaced that this divide is only about black and white people.

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Every person who clashed with the Nazi rallies aren't necessarily great people.

Did anyone argue about "great people"? But if you are at a rally and are on the side opposing Nazi's and racists...you are in better shape than said nazis and racists.

Better shape? in terms of PR, sure. But I've read plenty of stories about the anti fascist type of groups to know that these people are just as likely to be as fanatical and violent as the people they fight.

I think there's a simpler reason why Trump might have said there are bad people on both sides. Most likely either Bannon was in his ear or he just had a briefing on violent groups in America and the security adviser mentioned bad things that Antifa did.

Not really understanding what he was saying, because it he got documents with bullet points and pictures in crayon, he just tried to cover his ass by condemning both sides.

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Trumps father perhaps being a KKK supporter does not make Trump a KKK supporter.

No, but his speech last night did.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Not stating outright that Nazis are bad people does not make you a supporter of Nazis.

Yes. Yes it does. Want to know why? It's easy. The Nazi's were evil-incarnate. Saying they were evil and that anyone who associates with their symbology or sayings is also of that cloth...is easy. Like look, I said it at the beginning of this comment. Nazi's are evil. Nazi's in the 1930's and 40's were evil, and every Neo-Nazi-associating person who has existed since then are evil. See? Easy.

Yeah. The only thing I think is easy about these statements is the black and white imagery of political ideology. The Nazis were a political party. If you wanted to have a future in Germany, if you wanted to protect yourself or ever have a chance of promotion. Then you'd be a Nazi too.

Like some clever person mentioned last week. There are no Nazis in America. There are white supremacists. They are not the same as their European namesakes.

We know Trump by now. The guy doesn't understand diplomacy and he doesn't care about political correctness. The fact that he doesn't go out there and say what we want to hear and doesn't do what you'd like, is frustrating. It's infuriating. But it's what he does.

Being suspicious of people just because they're not "American" enough, and saying down with Nazis, is a bit too similar to the red fear of the 50s.

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Waiting 2 days to confirm that "Yes, nazis are bad" does not make you a supporter of nazis.

Are we going to pretend that his contrition on the point (which was caused by obvious political and moral pressure and nothing else) isn't an example of someone reading a goddamned script written by others which he didn't agree with. It's literally like watching an actor cold-read a piece ion dialogue. Meanwhile, his speech last night which was obviously NOT written before by anyone...is much more telling of the man.

Sure. He had to go out and try to fix his mess yesterday. But I don't think there is a difference between the two speeches.

He either doesn't understand or doesn't care about what he is saying. He just says words. He has the best words. Sometimes he calls things great. Some times he calls things bad. That's all.

If you want to make this an argument for him not being fit to lead his country, I am all there with you. He's a disgrace. But what he did was not a rubber stamp for the Nazis. That was the narrative the media ran with.

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

I think people are pushing the narrative further than Trumps indecisive and convoluted word garble actually supports. I'm seeing headlines now that state that Trump supports Neo Nazis. It's out of hand. People are working them selves up into a frenzy.

He was given THREE opportunities to do the right thing. Three. And he didn't.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Trump is an idiot but I find it just as likely that he is ignorant, completely tone deaf and out of touch, as the notion that he is a secret nazi working to undermine America.

No. It's not. He's an idiot, but there is no excuse for saying things the way he said them initially...and then to script out a second "forced" statement the way he did...an then double down on the first statement last night? No. He knows EXACTLY what he's doing and saying. You don't think there are people around him who have probably TOLD him how bad he sounded? Look at Kelly in that video of the conference last night. He can't even look UP. He knows damned well Trump went off script after he was very certainly told that this would be bad.

So no, he doesn't get to use the ignorance defence.

Ignorance comes in many forms. It's often married to arrogance.

If you looked at Trump during the second conference, I think he looked angry and frustrated. I think Trump was mad that people did not understand his great words. I think he kept saying the same things because he thought they were the right things to say, not understanding that he was saying the opposite of what people wanted to hear. I think he perceived the questions and the accussations as an unfair attack on him by the leftist media.

Again, I don't think he supports Nazis (except for when it might help him win votes or what ever). I think he's just too full of himself.

This post has been edited by Seduce Goose: 16 August 2017 - 06:04 PM

[QuickTidal]

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

The flags and the statues are more than symbols of slavery or racism. They also have cultural, historical significance. Erasing your history does not unmake it. While I'm not sure Trump actually thought that far, he had a point when he began to ask "What about Lincoln? What about Jefferson?" etc. What happens when all those Southern figures have been erased and suppressed? Who's next? There is a risk of eroding your own history and your own culture if you go down that path.

I prefer the idea of owning that imagery and telling the full story, rather than tearing down statues that have stood for a century.

There are no statues of Hitler or the rest of the Third Reich in Germany anywhere. And I believe Third Reich paraphernalia is outlawed as well.

But as stated in the video, no one forgets what happened just because no statues stand of the villains of the piece. That's a straw man. No one is about to forget Confederate side of the Civil War because the symbology adopted and utilized by them is not on prominent display.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Do you heal the divide by stigmatizing the notion of southern heritage? I don't know if it would help but I think it's misplaced that this divide is only about black and white people.

You think the divide is healable by "flooding"? What nonsense. Again, I'll use Germany as an example. Do you think that they need statues or nazi flags to heal any divides there? I don't think so, and anyone suggesting such isn't looking at it with a proper pair of eyes.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Better shape? in terms of PR, sure. But I've read plenty of stories about the anti fascist type of groups to know that these people are just as likely to be as fanatical and violent as the people they fight.

PR? No, in terms go human godamned decency.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

I think there's a simpler reason why Trump might have said there are bad people on both sides. Most likely either Bannon was in his ear or he just had a briefing on violent groups in America and the security adviser mentioned bad things that Antifa did.

This is not an excuse. Sorry. It's not. You hold the highest office in the land, you have the wherewithal to learn about these things...and not just believe a doctored Antifa flyer that was photoshopped.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Yeah. The only thing I think is easy about these statements is the black and white imagery of political ideology. The Nazis were a political party. If you wanted to have a future in Germany, if you wanted to protect yourself or ever have a chance of promotion. Then you'd be a Nazi too.

My god, wtf? A political party that committed genocide is evil. Full stop. Like it IS black and white. There is no other viable ground to stand on here man.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Like some clever person mentioned last week. There are no Nazis in America. There are white supremacists. They are not the same as their European namesakes.

Are they not? That's funny, they spout ACTUAL phases used by Nazi's, they utilize the symbology of those namesakes, and use the salute that the leader of that party used. I dunno where you are on that, but that's a fucking Nazi. Did you even watch the VICE doc above? It's pretty clear what they are aping.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

We know Trump by now.

Again, it's not excusable.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Sure. He had to go out and try to fix his mess yesterday. But I don't think there is a difference between the two speeches.

He either doesn't understand or doesn't care about what he is saying. He just says words. He has the best words. Sometimes he calls things great. Some times he calls things bad. That's all.

If you want to make this an argument for him not being fit to lead his country, I am all there with you. He's a disgrace. But what he did was not a rubber stamp for the Nazis. That was the narrative the media ran with.

Like I said, it's VERY easy to denounce Nazism because it's card-carrying evil.

Look at what Colbert said. "If someone asked me if I have sexual fantasies about the sexy elves in Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and I just turned and walked away. that would be a VERY telling position" That Trump did the same when asked to properly disavow them...is very telling.

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Ignorance comes in many forms. It's often married to arrogance.

If you looked at Trump during the second conference, I think he looked angry and frustrated. I think Trump was mad that people did not understand his great words. I think he kept saying the same things because he thought they were the right things to say, not understanding that he was saying the opposite of what people wanted to hear. I think he perceived the questions and the accussations as an unfair attack on him by the leftist media.

Again, I don't think he supports Nazis (except for when it might help him win votes or what ever). I think he's just too full of himself.

And yet...

[Aptorian]

I agree with most of your points but I believe the constant point of failure in these discussions, when speaking of logic, decency, capability, intelligence, etc. is the creature known as Trump. He doesn't read, he doesn't pay attention, he only cares about himself.

You can try to compare him to other presidents, you can try to talk about traditions and political expediency, I just don't think it makes sense. Trump does what Trump wants. Trump is like a box of shit stained chocolates. You never know what he's going to do or say.

[QuickTidal]

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

I agree with most of your points but I believe the constant point of failure in these discussions, when speaking of logic, decency, capability, intelligence, etc. is the creature known as Trump. He doesn't read, he doesn't pay attention, he only cares about himself.

You can try to compare him to other presidents, you can try to talk about traditions and political expediency, I just don't think it makes sense. Trump does what Trump wants. Trump is like a box of shit stained chocolates. You never know what he's going to do or say.

I mean sure. But at a certain point don't we have to look at a duck and call it a duck?

Down South, on 16 August 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

Jesus fuck! Dare I EVEN FUCKING COMMENT?

Sure man. We're all friends here. We can disagree or agree. I disagree with Apt, but we can be civil about it. I hope anyways.

[Aptorian]

Down South, on 16 August 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

Jesus fuck! Dare I EVEN FUCKING COMMENT?

Please do. I've heard you live "Down South". I'd like to hear your view point.

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

I agree with most of your points but I believe the constant point of failure in these discussions, when speaking of logic, decency, capability, intelligence, etc. is the creature known as Trump. He doesn't read, he doesn't pay attention, he only cares about himself.

You can try to compare him to other presidents, you can try to talk about traditions and political expediency, I just don't think it makes sense. Trump does what Trump wants. Trump is like a box of shit stained chocolates. You never know what he's going to do or say.

I mean sure. But at a certain point don't we have to look at a duck and call it a duck?

I'd say you are mistaking the duck for an asshole. There's a large overlap so it's easy to mistake them. However so far nothing Trump has done outright says Nazi or even racist to me. He's just an asshole.

[QuickTidal]

Also re: Trump's (Fox-news-learned) "What about the Alt-Left who charged with clubs" comment:

http://www.slate.com...ottesville.html

[Malankazooie]

Vice News had a segment yesterday that examines the confederate statues that proliferate primarily through the U.S. south. The statue that was the flash point for the Charlottesville incident was commissioned 52 years after the Civil War ended.

[HoosierDaddy]

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

Down South, on 16 August 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

Jesus fuck! Dare I EVEN FUCKING COMMENT?

Please do. I've heard you live "Down South". I'd like to hear your view point.

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Seduce Goose, on 16 August 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

I agree with most of your points but I believe the constant point of failure in these discussions, when speaking of logic, decency, capability, intelligence, etc. is the creature known as Trump. He doesn't read, he doesn't pay attention, he only cares about himself.

You can try to compare him to other presidents, you can try to talk about traditions and political expediency, I just don't think it makes sense. Trump does what Trump wants. Trump is like a box of shit stained chocolates. You never know what he's going to do or say.

I mean sure. But at a certain point don't we have to look at a duck and call it a duck?

I'd say you are mistaking the duck for an asshole. There's a large overlap so it's easy to mistake them. However so far nothing Trump has done outright says Nazi or even racist to me. He's just an asshole.

Nah, ducks are fine. Ducklings are cute. You are thinking of geese. Or are you an altGoose?

[Mentalist]

I can see Apt's point (the horror! )

Not condemning something =/= endorsing it. Not always. Some people can just... not have an opinion .

It's great to grab onto a catchword, and I'm not disputing the "white supremacists are often just another name for Nazis" parallel, but I think QT is basically refusing to acknowledge the possibility that Apt is trying to promote: that Trump doesn't care. That he's not insta-triggered by the word "Nazi", and he doesn't care enough to investigate (ignorance, arrogance, call it whatever).

What I'm finding to be most likely to happen about this whole thing is that these types of groups in the States will perceive this as encouragement; that the govt offices responsible for watching them will see this as a signal to " stand" down. And you might see their proliferation, the way you saw in Russia at one point.

Whether that's actually Trump's agenda depends on how paranoid you are about foreign puppeteers pulling his strings (or, if we are to believe Nico, the global financial cabal).

[QuickTidal]

Mentalist, on 16 August 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

It's great to grab onto a catchword, and I'm not disputing the "white supremacists are often just another name for Nazis" parallel, but I think QT is basically refusing to acknowledge the possibility that Apt is trying to promote: that Trump doesn't care. That he's not insta-triggered by the word "Nazi", and he doesn't care enough to investigate (ignorance, arrogance, call it whatever).

Which as far as I'm concerned makes him just as bad as those people. Full stop. Not caring equals being those things on the scale of human civilization.

Sorry, it is what it is.

His JOB is to goddamn well care.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 August 2017 - 07:08 PM

[Mentalist]

QuickTidal, on 16 August 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 16 August 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

It's great to grab onto a catchword, and I'm not disputing the "white supremacists are often just another name for Nazis" parallel, but I think QT is basically refusing to acknowledge the possibility that Apt is trying to promote: that Trump doesn't care. That he's not insta-triggered by the word "Nazi", and he doesn't care enough to investigate (ignorance, arrogance, call it whatever).

Which as far as I'm concerned makes him just as bad as those people. Full stop. Not caring equals being those things on the scale of human civilization.

Sorry, it is what it is.

His JOB is to goddamn well care.

As much as I, and probably most of humanity agree with you, I don't think anywhere in the American Constitution does it say that the president is expected to uphold a particular moral standard.

Yes, it's been political convention (and basic human decency) for a person in power to display a certain level of moral understanding. But it's not a legal requirement, per se.