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The USA Politics Thread

#16161 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 06:01 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 03 June 2026 - 05:33 PM, said:

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 03 June 2026 - 05:05 PM, said:

... I really hope I don't end up having to vote for Trump in 2028...


Insane statement. Not the least of which is YOUR GODDAMN CONSTITUTION SAYS HE CAN'T....but even suggesting you would vote for this lifelong criminal, conman, and pedi JUST so you can have your little AI wet dream come true...is an unhinged POV. My gods.

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 03 June 2026 - 05:12 PM, said:

Artificial intelligence is more important than the United States.


I assure you, it's not.


It's more important than the industrial revolution, the development of agriculture, and the evolution of homo sapiens combined. It may be more important than our solar system.

But to be clear I was mostly kidding about having to vote for Trump in 2028... the Democratic candidate would have to really be terrible on AI for me to seriously consider that. And besides, if Trump is running for a third term, our votes probably won't really count anyway...
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#16162 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 06:08 PM

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 03 June 2026 - 06:01 PM, said:

It's more important than the industrial revolution, the development of agriculture, and the evolution of homo sapiens combined. It may be more important than our solar system.



One day you'll have to try to explain to us what radicalized you into an AI true believer to this level. Because to me it's genuinely bordering on hyper focused madness.
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#16163 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 06:23 PM

No need to speculate. It's already happening. https://finance.yaho...-170925969.html

Quote

Nearly 50,000 Lake Tahoe residents have to find a new power source after their energy source looks to redirect lines to data centers

Catherina Gioino May 12, 2026 10 min readLake Tahoe doesn’t know where its power will come from after next ski season—and it’s a major problem for the 49,000 residents who call the region home.

The Sierra Nevada tourist hub—home to ski resorts, lakeside casinos, and roughly 25 to 28 million annual visitors—is facing an energy crisis with a familiar culprit: the data centers powering the AI boom.

NV Energy, the Nevada utility that has supplied the bulk of Lake Tahoe’s electricity for decades, told Liberty Utilities—the small California company that services the region—that it will stop providing power after May 2027. The reason? NV Energy needs the capacity for data centers. As in: the energy supplier for the Lake Tahoe region is telling the utility company that it has less than a year to find another power source.

Northern Nevada has become one of the fastest-growing data-center corridors in the country. Google, Apple, and Microsoft have either built or are planning facilities around the Tahoe-Reno Industrial Center east of Reno. The Desert Research Institute, using data from NV Energy’s 2024 Integrated Resource Plan, found that the 12 data center projects located overwhelmingly in Northern Nevada could drive 5,900 megawatts of new demand by 2033. At a regional business event last fall, NV Energy’s director of business development called the moment “unprecedented,” saying the company was eager to serve the new industrial load but that it would not “impact our existing customer base.”

But Liberty’s 49,000 California customers may already be bearing the cost. Liberty Utilities generates about 25% of its power from solar facilities it owns in Nevada. The other 75% comes from NV Energy, and that source will no longer be supplied to the region by this time next year.

“It’s like we don’t exist,” Danielle Hughes told Fortune. Hughes is a North Lake Tahoe resident, CEO of the nonprofit Tahoe Spark, and a supervisor within the California Energy Commission’s Efficiency Division.


A jurisdictional knot with no easy fix
What makes Tahoe’s crisis so difficult is that no single regulator oversees the entire chain from power generation to customer bills.

Liberty is a California investor-owned utility. Its customers live in California and pay rates approved by the California Public Utilities Commission. But Liberty’s grid sits inside NV Energy’s balancing authority, connects to NV Energy at 38 points, and relies entirely on Nevada transmission lines, according to a Liberty filing with state regulators. Liberty’s territory is a small sliver along California’s eastern border, sitting within NV Energy’s balancing zone rather than the California Independent System Operator, which coordinates the grid for virtually every other ratepayer in the state.

Building a direct connection to California’s grid would require a new transmission line west over the Sierra, a project Liberty President Eric Schwarzrock said would cost “hundreds of millions of dollars” with significant land impacts.

The CPUC approves Liberty’s rates and procurement requests, but it cannot order NV Energy to keep selling wholesale power or dictate how Nevada plans for data centers. That falls to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which regulates interstate transmission and wholesale electricity sales. With NV Energy and Nevada regulators controlling the upstream grid, the result is a system where California sets the rules, Nevada runs the wires, federal jurisdiction applies to the wholesale market, and no single entity is accountable for the outcome.

In March 2026, Liberty asked the CPUC to authorize an expedited request for proposals for replacement energy beginning June 1, 2027. In that filing, Liberty said NV Energy had cited data centers in the Tahoe-Reno Industrial Center area and northern Nevada transmission constraints, among other reasons, for ending full-requirements service.

Hughes and the Sierra Club’s Tahoe Area Group want the commission to reject that approach and instead open a full proceeding. In an April 1, 2026, letter to CPUC commissioners shared with Fortune, Sierra Club Vice Chair Tobi Tyler argued that the scale of the procurement—affecting 49,000 ratepayers dependent on an isolated, rapidly transforming grid—demands the transparency and public participation that only a formal proceeding provides. Tahoe Spark’s underlying protest states that “California does not produce a Liberty-specific forecast of demand, peak conditions, or procurement needed for numerous California communities in a high wildfire risk area.”

“You need to open a full proceeding and do a transparent process and understand what we look like in California policy, and what the long-term game is,” Hughes said. Even regulators are still sorting through the legal boundaries, she added: “They’re basically trying to decide what to do right now, or even what they legally can do.”


The data center next door
Data centers used 22% of Nevada’s electricity in 2024, and that share could rise to 35% by 2030. In NV Energy’s own 2024 resource plan, about 75% of major-project load growth is attributed to data centers, according to Sierra Club expert testimony filed with Nevada regulators and reviewed by Fortune, and most of it is concentrated in Northern Nevada—using the same system that feeds power to Lake Tahoe.

NV Energy is building Greenlink West, a 525-kV, $4.2 billion transmission line from Las Vegas to Yerington, expected online in May 2027. Schwarzrock said Liberty would be “first in the waiting line” when Greenlink opens, giving it access to a wider pool of energy providers. But that timeline matches the contract deadline exactly, leaving almost no margin for error. About 70% of the project’s costs will be borne by Southern Nevada customers.

But this is nothing new, at least according to NV Energy.

Katie Jo Collier, a spokesperson for the utility, said the transition was rooted in a longtime understanding with Liberty “well before data center load growth was a consideration,” calling it “a planned transition for many years, not a reaction to recent developments.” NV Energy sold its California electric assets to Liberty in 2009 and agreed to keep supplying power temporarily. That arrangement was extended in 2015, again in 2020, and once more in late 2025, and each time because Liberty had not yet secured an independent supply, a timeline corroborated by regulatory documents reviewed by Fortune.

But independent experts have questioned whether NV Energy’s own demand projections are reliable. In testimony filed with Nevada regulators in Oct. 2024, energy economist Rose Anderson of Synapse Energy Economics warned that NV Energy’s major-project load forecast is ‘highly uncertain’ and that existing customers could end up paying for infrastructure built to serve industrial demand that never materializes.

In statement to Fortune, NV Energy reiterated its spokesperson’s statement about the transition having been planned for years. “It is important to note that the NV Energy’s wholesale agreement with Liberty Utilities was always intended to be temporary and transitional, with a clear timeline and multiple extensions over the years to support Liberty’s long-term planning efforts to secure its own access to energy supply. To ensure reliable ongoing service to Lake Tahoe customers, NV Energy agreed in 2025 to continue providing energy service to Liberty’s customers until their transmission access is available and/or until Greenlink is online.”

“NV Energy has provided reliable service to Liberty’s customers in the Lake Tahoe Basin for years and fully intends to continue that commitment while Liberty secures its own transmission access and energy to supply those customers,” the utility added. “NV Energy has taken proactive steps to ensure there is no service disruption to Liberty customers, now or in the future.”


Rates were already climbing
The supply crisis arrives on top of an existing affordability fight. In its 2025 general rate case, Liberty originally sought a 19.1% revenue increase—about $37.51 more per month for the average residential customer, according to CPUC filings. The CPUC approved a smaller increase: 11.4%, with a 9.75% return on equity rather than Liberty’s requested 11%.

The rate case spotlighted wildfire costs, insurance premiums, and infrastructure spending in a high-risk mountain region. The CPUC decision noted Liberty’s wildfire exposure and its exclusion from California’s AB 1054 Wildfire Fund, suggesting that rising insurance costs (quoted at over $30 million alone) for small utilities could warrant future rule making.

Tahoe Spark opposed the rate-case settlement, arguing that it failed to examine the interstate wholesale power structure underlying the costs paid by California ratepayers. Hughes said the problem is not merely high rates but the way costs are allocated in a region where visitor demand, second homes, ski resorts, and development projects drive infrastructure needs that permanent residents pay for.

“We’re the cost of being redistributed onto a declining community, and that is a crisis,” Hughes said.

Hughes argues that Tahoe is treated as a wealthy vacation-home market even though its year-round residents include low-income communities and essential workers. “Even though we have low-income communities in both South Lake Tahoe and North Lake Tahoe, Kings Beach, both the Energy Commission and the California Public Utility Commission do not include us in any of their socioeconomic plans,” she said.

The basin’s government structure compounds the accountability problem. Lake Tahoe spans two states, multiple counties, one incorporated city, and the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency. County supervisors, state appointees, utility regulators, and resort developers all touch parts of the system, but no single body owns the whole problem. Liberty’s demand pattern illustrates how different this territory is from the rest of California: while most regional utilities peak in summer, Liberty’s demand crests around Christmas, when second-home owners arrive for ski season — driving infrastructure costs that year-round residents bear.


What happens next
Liberty has told customers that NV Energy will remain the transmission provider—the wires aren’t going anywhere. The question is who supplies the electricity that flows over them, what it costs, and whether California regulators can protect customers whose upstream grid sits outside California’s usual planning structure.

Schwarzrock said the utility plans to bid the replacement contract to “anybody and everybody,” focusing first on meeting California’s renewable energy requirements. Liberty anticipates issuing a formal RFP in summer 2026, with replacement power most likely coming from sources outside California, delivered over NV Energy’s transmission system.

Hughes said short-term replacement power is likely available from elsewhere in the West—but she’s not optimistic about what comes after. “Short term, you can commonly get good deals, but it’s unstable,” she said. “The short-term deal gets you through. But then you’re in the Western market, competing against PG&E, Southern California Edison, data centers, and mining companies. We’re 49,000 customers. We have no leverage.”

Her larger concern is that as California and Nevada move toward a more integrated Western electricity market, Tahoe’s small customer base will be increasingly exposed to competition from larger utilities and industrial buyers with far more purchasing power.

“We have no representation,” Hughes said. “It’s resource extraction.”



On the other hand...China is experimenting with a wind-powered, underwater data center that just went online. Offshore, so not freshwater. It's interesting, but unknowns include the environmental impact of releasing heat, whether it can be scaled up, and of course the intersection of those two things.
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#16164 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 06:24 PM

I mean, AI is literally raping the planet so I guess Trump will be in favour of that!

And to say it's more important than the development of agriculture is truly insane. But it tracks because clearly AI proponents don't actually care about the people whose lives are being affected so why believe that the development of agriculture is that important? It's only food after all.
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#16165 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 07:15 PM

While I don’t think AI is going to reshape the future as soon as Azath thinks (the paying customer base of the large LLMs is still really small) and many of its most avant garde features are and will be out of the hands of anyone not in the military, the potential is insane - it is not bigger than agriculture, but it is however, imho, on the level of the carriage: still here, still going strong in adapted, sturdier, stronger versions (trucks) and carrying a large part of the tedious, unglamorous parts of the world economy.

AI will not do your plumbing, not grow your food, not build your house, won’t do health and safety inspections, won’t police the streets, can’t teach our kids, can’t diagnose whether your dog ate a frog or just licked it so whether it will just drool or die it can’t tell, nor will it ever tell you inconvenient truths. It can however turn a task of weeks into one of days, do repetitive tasks extremely well and it is going to be used for infantile purposes as much as for serious ones.

In the short term, the ever growing demand for faster chips and bigger data centers will come due in the form of loans before they earn themselves back. Doesn’t mean AI will go away, but just like with train lines, it does mean that many companies going all in on it or building it, end up bankrupt - and their investors with it - and the lucky ones who put their money on the right horse, end up incredibly rich.
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#16166 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 08:01 PM

Watching a big chunk of the world lose their mind over a glorified probability engine has been... something.
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And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#16167 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 08:05 PM

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 03 June 2026 - 06:01 PM, said:

It's more important than the industrial revolution, the development of agriculture, and the evolution of homo sapiens combined. It may be more important than our solar system.

But to be clear I was mostly kidding about having to vote for Trump in 2028... the Democratic candidate would have to really be terrible on AI for me to seriously consider that. And besides, if Trump is running for a third term, our votes probably won't really count anyway...


Hyperbole again I hope. Otherwise if we can agree on the linear nature of time can we agree that the foundation of the pyramid is more important than the apex, Ie. humans cant make AI before we feed ourselves. Either way I can assure the solar system is indifferent.

View PostTapper, on 03 June 2026 - 07:15 PM, said:

AI will not do your plumbing, not grow your food, not build your house, won’t do health and safety inspections, won’t police the streets, can’t teach our kids, can’t diagnose whether your dog ate a frog or just licked it so whether it will just drool or die it can’t tell, nor will it ever tell you inconvenient truths. It can however turn a task of weeks into one of days, do repetitive tasks extremely well and it is going to be used for infantile purposes as much as for serious ones.


Except for plumbing (pending robotics) AI can, does amd will do all the above. I wish we would stop using AI since its very much a misnomer especially with how we use the term in Sci Fi. I always liked how Mass effect made a distinction between Virtual Intelligence (fancy programs that can mimick intelligence but wont ever be more than the sum of its parts) and Artificial Intellgince (capable of true learning, self improvement and sapience). Probbaly a lot of real terms people who work in AI know and use and mayhaps ill ask chatgpt next :coffee:

Anything that involves large data and monitoring will benefit from AI however. Agriculture is yield as a product of water, weather, fertilizer, time etc and its already being used to monitor all of this and more. Its absolutely policing the streets and we better hope goverments legislate this properly before its too late. I have personal knowledge that some police departments in america run face recognition on everyone they come across. There are levels as to what software and databases they may have access to but there is nothing stopping them from doing it with whatever private software they can get their hands on. AI is not ready to be the final diagnosis of record but its absolutely being used in medicine and being trained on large datasets. Although one of my favourite anecdotes is there was an AI trained to detect lung cancer I think it was and it got really good at it. Problem is AI is sometimes a black box and we dont always know why it gets the results it does. After backtracking they realised the AI could tell when it was more likely to be cancer because the real cases x-rays would have more data like physician, hospital and left, right indicatiors etc whereas the control data was often just a plain x-ray. So it was accurate like 99% of the time but for the wrong reason. Its not true AI yet and its only as good as we make it.
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#16168 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 03 June 2026 - 10:27 PM

There's a similar fun one about early image categorisation models that turned out to basically be relying on certain kinds of photos being disproportionately likely to have blurry backgrounds. The nature of training data.

I do think it's unfortunate that people, especially on the left, seem to lock themselves into dismissing the technology itself on account of its environmental, social, or economic consequences.

What I mean by that is that people hate the environmental damage, hate the tech companies, hate the disingenuous arguments that the technology could justify that, and then seem almost obliged to take the stance that the technology itself must be rubbish. It feels like a kind of mental reverse engineering.

I often see this criticism that it's "just" fancy maths, as if maths is not an incredible discipline that has underpinned human progress in countless ways.

To even manage very basic tasks - summarise this text, turn this idea into a presentation, dig out some research on this topic - would seem like magic if you described them to someone ten years ago. And now I can give it a basic instruction and it will pull up the right applications and get going. The fact that we have essentially found a way to give human language instructions to machinery, that it can more or less parse into relevant actions, is a massive scientific achievement that people have been struggling with for literal decades.

This isn't to say the current generation of products are remotely human level. They're certainly overhyped, and I think there are huge problems with the economic model at play, and the continued destruction of our environment is horrifying in general. Nonetheless the technology is impressive. I think denying that is kind of wilfully ignorant about how difficult the "just maths" problems actually are.

Cougar said:

Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful


worry said:

Grief is right (until we abolish capitalism).
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#16169 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted Yesterday, 05:05 AM

Personally my problem stems from them being sold as the panacea for the world's ills when currently they only add to them.

And documentedly make us stupider, we do not jeed stupider people, America is one step from idiocracy as it is.
Any, take this to the algorithms thread.

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#16170 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted Yesterday, 11:39 AM

View Postworry, on 03 June 2026 - 06:23 PM, said:

On the other hand...China is experimenting with a wind-powered, underwater data center that just went online. Offshore, so not freshwater. It's interesting, but unknowns include the environmental impact of releasing heat, whether it can be scaled up, and of course the intersection of those two things.


As usual China is leading the way to find a solution that doesn't require freshwater or data centers located and buzzing in our backyard. Is it a perfect solution? Likely not, but it's better than the American billionaire one so far.

Also I think the problem I have is that it was recently discovered that the largest place online that LLM's/AI scrape their data from is REDDIT.

Like...
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#16171 User is online   Maark Abbott 

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Posted Yesterday, 11:44 AM

View PostMacros, on 04 June 2026 - 05:05 AM, said:

America is one step from idiocracy as it is.


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#16172 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted Yesterday, 02:13 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 03 June 2026 - 02:00 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 03 June 2026 - 01:47 PM, said:

ah, Kevin O'Leary.... who knew the the jovial cynic from Dragon's Den was secretly Emperor Palpatine now building his own personal AI Death Stars (the other one is in Alberta, go figure).


I saw someone say "Man, I know billionaires are blindly stumbling towards the eat the rich guillotine, but Kevin O'Leary seems to want to be at the front of the line so badly" and I laughed, because this guy has become CARTOONISHLY evil, he may as well have a long moustache he twirls and tying people to train tracks...like...

I also don't get it. If I was a billionaire, I would fuck off into the sunset and live my life somewhere nice forever. No one but my family and friends would likely ever hear from me again. I'd be Albert Finney at the end of OCEAN'S TWELVE, sat by a villa on the sunny mediterranean sipping wine, or on my own sailboat sipping coffee and enjoying the waves...like I haven't a clue why these chuds INSIST on these stupid power moves and involvement in politics...like go away and enjoy retirement....holy shit their constant involvement in our lives is insufferable.


His (overt) political ambitions were squashed and now he's vengeful.
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Posted Yesterday, 02:18 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 04 June 2026 - 11:39 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 03 June 2026 - 06:23 PM, said:

On the other hand...China is experimenting with a wind-powered, underwater data center that just went online. Offshore, so not freshwater. It's interesting, but unknowns include the environmental impact of releasing heat, whether it can be scaled up, and of course the intersection of those two things.


As usual China is leading the way to find a solution that doesn't require freshwater or data centers located and buzzing in our backyard. Is it a perfect solution? Likely not, but it's better than the American billionaire one so far.


I wouldn't get too excited about it, it's China so it will likely give all the whales cancer.

Quote

Also I think the problem I have is that it was recently discovered that the largest place online that LLM's/AI scrape their data from is REDDIT.

Like...


What could possibly go wrong???
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#16174 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted Yesterday, 02:24 PM

 QuickTidal, on 04 June 2026 - 11:39 AM, said:

 worry, on 03 June 2026 - 06:23 PM, said:

On the other hand...China is experimenting with a wind-powered, underwater data center that just went online. Offshore, so not freshwater. It's interesting, but unknowns include the environmental impact of releasing heat, whether it can be scaled up, and of course the intersection of those two things.


As usual China is leading the way to find a solution that doesn't require freshwater or data centers located and buzzing in our backyard. Is it a perfect solution? Likely not, but it's better than the American billionaire one so far.

Also I think the problem I have is that it was recently discovered that the largest place online that LLM's/AI scrape their data from is REDDIT.

Like...


Weren’t you just attacking Azath for saying hyperbolic and stupid things about AI? You want to replace billionaires with a one party authoritarian state?
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#16175 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted Yesterday, 02:33 PM

View PostCause, on 04 June 2026 - 02:24 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 04 June 2026 - 11:39 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 03 June 2026 - 06:23 PM, said:

On the other hand...China is experimenting with a wind-powered, underwater data center that just went online. Offshore, so not freshwater. It's interesting, but unknowns include the environmental impact of releasing heat, whether it can be scaled up, and of course the intersection of those two things.


As usual China is leading the way to find a solution that doesn't require freshwater or data centers located and buzzing in our backyard. Is it a perfect solution? Likely not, but it's better than the American billionaire one so far.

Also I think the problem I have is that it was recently discovered that the largest place online that LLM's/AI scrape their data from is REDDIT.

Like...


Weren’t you just attacking Azath for saying hyperbolic and stupid things about AI? You want to replace billionaires with a one party authoritarian state?


Point me to where I said anything about replacement.

I noted that China (as they have been doing on various fronts) are trying to NOT upset the status quo of its citizens to implement data centers....while American billionaires DNGAF and will bulldoze your backyard and fuck your health and well being for them...

For what it's worth, you will find that on the spectrum between Chinese Communism-by-way-of-Capitalism in 2026 and Billionaire-led Neo-Feudal late stage rot...I lean towards the former as better for the average citizen, but perhaps YMMV.
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#16176 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted Yesterday, 03:34 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 04 June 2026 - 02:33 PM, said:

View PostCause, on 04 June 2026 - 02:24 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 04 June 2026 - 11:39 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 03 June 2026 - 06:23 PM, said:

On the other hand...China is experimenting with a wind-powered, underwater data center that just went online. Offshore, so not freshwater. It's interesting, but unknowns include the environmental impact of releasing heat, whether it can be scaled up, and of course the intersection of those two things.


As usual China is leading the way to find a solution that doesn't require freshwater or data centers located and buzzing in our backyard. Is it a perfect solution? Likely not, but it's better than the American billionaire one so far.

Also I think the problem I have is that it was recently discovered that the largest place online that LLM's/AI scrape their data from is REDDIT.

Like...


Weren’t you just attacking Azath for saying hyperbolic and stupid things about AI? You want to replace billionaires with a one party authoritarian state?


Point me to where I said anything about replacement.

I noted that China (as they have been doing on various fronts) are trying to NOT upset the status quo of its citizens to implement data centers....while American billionaires DNGAF and will bulldoze your backyard and fuck your health and well being for them...

For what it's worth, you will find that on the spectrum between Chinese Communism-by-way-of-Capitalism in 2026 and Billionaire-led Neo-Feudal late stage rot...I lean towards the former as better for the average citizen, but perhaps YMMV.


The country that puts its citizens in re-education camps? China has a 9/100 on freedom house index. USA is still an 84.

Taking two data centers as example and extrapolating them as an argument that you would be better off under China is crazy.

Even if we stick to just green metrics, the country remains one of the worlds worst polluters. Half of its green initiaves were forced by absolute neccesisty because they had let things geet so bad in the first place. China has come a long way but I think we can still hope for better.
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#16177 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted Yesterday, 04:08 PM

View PostCause, on 04 June 2026 - 03:34 PM, said:

The country that puts its citizens in re-education camps?


Weird that shit like Guantanamo, or the ICE detention centers, or sending innocent people to a brutal El Salvador prison and then taking selfies of it, or funding a genocide ninth Middle East doesn't register for you...but what's occurring in Xinjiang somehow does?


View PostCause, on 04 June 2026 - 03:34 PM, said:

China has a 9/100 on freedom house index. USA is still an 84.


Weird that the on the four freedom indexes (all of which are think tanks in the states), China scores on at least 2 of them around 43 while the us is at 72...so 9/100 is a wild statement. Moreover, these are relatively meaningless indexes to the people who live in these places.

View PostCause, on 04 June 2026 - 03:34 PM, said:

Taking two data centers as example and extrapolating them as an argument that you would be better off under China is crazy.


Again, the propaganda worked hard on you...I NEVER said "you would be better off" I said China was attempting to do things, as per Worry's post, in a different way that serves the citizenry more than fucking BILLIONAIRES will. Full stop. Am I easier on China than you clearly are? Sure. My grandmother grew up in Shanghai and my dad lived in Hong Kong as a kid too, and I still have family there (and in Japan)...so I do have dog in that race. Do I think they are perfect? Absolutely not. Do I think they are as bad as the USA says? I do not. I think the USA still peddles the notion that China in 2026 is like the USSR in 1950's...and that's simply not the case, nor is it even Maoist levels anymore.

View PostCause, on 04 June 2026 - 03:34 PM, said:

Even if we stick to just green metrics, the country remains one of the world's worst polluters. Half of its green initiaves were forced by absolute neccesisty because they had let things geet so bad in the first place.


That you say this without irony ASTONISHES me. Why are they a big polluter? Who made them such? The USA and other western countries don't get to stand back after having DECADES of manufacturing moved there (there USA began doing this in the SEVENTIES FFS) that DOES the polluting, and then stand back with their hands up and say, "they are the worst, why would they let it get so bad"...

Dude, your cell phone, and dollars tore crap, and clothing and computer parts are all why....Good gods.

Absolutely insane that the US has convinced everyone that China is a terrible polluter, while causing the pollution by proxy. Insane.

View PostCause, on 04 June 2026 - 03:34 PM, said:

China has come a long way but I think we can still hope for better.



I don't think anyone would suggest otherwise (I certainly didn't), the USA on the other hand likes to argue that climate change isn't even a thing...so...you know...giant gravity moon steps ahead in China on that.


Lastly, I would live there before I would live in the USA if I was forced to choose between the two. But I don't have to as I live in Canada and I'm happy here. But there is no universe in which I would want the caged "freedom" Americans think they have over mine.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: Yesterday, 04:11 PM

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#16178 User is offline   worry 

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Posted Yesterday, 06:29 PM

Can't spell ChiANADA without China.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#16179 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted Yesterday, 07:03 PM

I support giving Trump some crayons and setting him up in a corner of the White House but wow!

https://www.independ...b44d1bc7da2efd9
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#16180 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted Yesterday, 08:10 PM

View Postworry, on 04 June 2026 - 06:29 PM, said:

Can't spell ChiANADA without China.


my keyboard was made in china so d'uh.
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