[Cause]

Spoilers!


Spoilers!


Spoilers!


Spoilers!


Spoilers!




After finishing Orb Sceptre Thorne I was not at first certain of my thoughts. I needed time to think things through. However the more time I took, the longer I mulled it over the more I realised how much the book failed, for me at least, thematically and narratively.

I think what threw me at first, and kept me from noticing the books growing flaws, was the books early chapter on the Seguleh. This was what we had been waiting so long to see and it was excellent. The Seguleh revealed, their culture explained the mystery at last answered. We saw from the PoV of the Seguleh second how a challenge is issued and answered. We learned there is a ruling Jistarii family. That they have priests and that within the temple at least the priests outrank the even the second. Then throughout the rest of the book we never learn anything of value ever again. The Seguleh culture is never built upon again. We never learn the truth about Darujhistan, the Tyrant or the Moranth. No, instead in true malazan tradition we are treated to another hundred vague hints, veiled foreshadowing, ominous comments and revelations of the world’s history which are more confusing than revelatory.

Let’s look at it in detail. We finally visited the land of Moranth and are treated to less than half a page’s description for their city. We still don’t know why the Silver are in charge or what the difference between the black, red and gold are. We are told about an ancient feud between them, darujhistan and the Seguleh and receive no details. We know now that Dancer and Kellenved infiltrated cloud city and signed a treaty with them along with Dassem. Why did they do it, why did they agree? We still know nothing. It’s what, the fifteenth book in the series, and we still don’t have any solid detail on one of the most important and interesting people in the stories.

Then there was the Tyrant. Why did he awake only now? We are told that he fashioned the Seguleh and that there has always been only one Tyrant. The Tyrant smells of Ice but is not Jhaghut. How was he defeated all those years ago when his power was all the greater than it is now. These confusing revelations also seem at odds with the hints, or at least the conclusions so many of us had for Assail. At least we got some insight (perhaps?) into Kruppe and his magnificence and why he refers to himself as Circle-Breaker.

As for the Seguleh. How did the Seguleh lose the unmarred mask? Why is it even important? Why was it on Moonspawn? How did Oru know? I also felt that there was what I can only describe as lazy and unimaginative writing involving them on two occasions. In a series which has made light of the power imbalance between Gods, Dragons, Ascendants and Mortals and no few occasion I felt unsatisfied to see that four hundred Seguleh were written as killing and routing 30, 000 Rhivi and ten thousand Malazan Infantry. I love the Seguleh and am happy for them to be the inhumanly willed, strong and fast duelling masters that they are but what they were described as doing broke my disbelief. A mass charge of ten thousand infantry with shields locked eight hundred wide and ten men deep would bowl over the widely spaced line of four hundred Seguleh. Even if in their inhuman skill they killed the entire front rank, momentum alone would have seen them all knocked over. Instead we see the fight written as the Malazans waiting to receive the Seguleh at their shield wall and they fight a hundred separate Duels in a row. Armies don’t fight like that. The second complaint of lazy writing I have is when the Moranth bomb the Seguleh and the Malazans and Torvald all react in Horror. I actually thought the horror was because Torvald and the malazans thought the proximity meant they would be bombed too. To discover that instead they felt pity for killing the Seguleh in this way just struck me as false. We have seen the Malazans do/witness things just as bad with no worries. Lets also not forget that the Seguleh had just killed or crippled 4000 Malazan Infantry and were about to do in the rest.

I won’t even mention the Timeline except to say I frankly don’t care about roughly which week or month things happen in but when a book series that used to start every chapter with the date down to the month of Burns Sleep in the corner should at least be able to keep historical events within the same millennium consistently. SAME MILLENIUM.

The back-story and details are piling up higher and higher and seldom if ever do they answer or address any of it. I wish they would stop introducing new characters when they are so obviously not finished with the old. Because of all of this I frankly find it difficult to care for fisher, I’m not interested in becoming invested in him or the new mercenaries/Culture who know him when we already have so much on the plate that is not receiving the attention it deserves. Who is Orchid? I feel like answering back who cares.

In fact the entire Spawn plotline left me cold. It was a break away from the real action with what seems like another entirely empty cameo appearance by Korbal and Broach. What did it bring to the table? It set up Orchids character when what it should have been doing was closing of the Bridgeburner question.

When I first started this series we were treated much the same, offered many mysteries and few facts. Back then these hints excited rather than frustrated me. They were something to look forward to in future books. It was Something to debate about on the forums. After Fifteen books I feel like we should at least be able to have some grasp about what the hell a Warren is. When this series delivers its one of my favourites but far too often I find it nothing more than a tedious Hint machine.

Beyond these faults I just thought I would mention that I felt the PoV changes are too swift and common. They make it very difficult to get into any one part of the story. ICE also has a bad habit of ntentionally with-holding a characters name or sudden revelation to build suspense. Its not very original, and I found it tacky rather than engaging. Also like all of his Novels so far (perhaps just the unfortunate effect of going second) there is an over-reliance on using our affection for characters from previous stories to drive excitement, why was it necessary to tell us about Karsa at all. Unfortunately many characters also just come across as wrong, envy seems a caricature of her past self and I feel this sadly also robs ICE of opportunities to create his own characters with their own real developed depth.

This post has been edited by Cause: 23 January 2012 - 03:01 PM

[tiam]

Im finding it difficult to find a point on there I dont completely agree with.

ICE gave us the potatoes rather than the meat in SW and he did it again here. Malazan mysteries you expect but what annoys me more is these are standalone books each set on a different continent. Theyre not goin to be revisited again. The Tyrant esp. felt very B movie horror with the mask thing and the lack of explanation felt wrong as you say. I didnt mind the Seguleh mass killings tbh but I really felt a ring of falsehood when the Malazan army was crying for them. Didnt strike me as legit as you say.

Who was Malakai for example? I thought he Topper for a while until he turned up and I still dont know maybe I missed it. There was reference to a 'him' who stopped the Tyrant the first time? Was this Kruppe? Why was the Miner released from the barrow to turn up and tell us the Tyrant was human and to play cards with Raest? Is that a nod towards the MOI reference that the Tyrants on Assail are not Jaghut but human? So many unexplained hints like in SW.

It was the clumsy inconsistencies that annoyed me more than anything really.

Anyway I will undoubtedly reread this very soon. I reread SW and found it an ok if not satisfying read but alot better the second time round. Maybe this will be the same and Ill have to read it again.

ICEs Assail novel better tie up these loose comments and show a theme throughout, of masterstroke proportions, or he just confirms hes riding of SEs coattails/fanbase. Otherwise mimicking SEs writing style to give the illusion of mystery when really hes simply dodging round the facts we want, and need to make sense of these books, to create tension that otherwise wouldnt be there wont cut it anymore. What i mean is who bought this book because it was Malaz rather than an ICE book? I know alot of people onsite are unimpressed with ICE style and pacing but will buy the book anyway because its Malaz and compliments the series.

I was so hopeful for this book as ICE style of writing is often lighter on the SE brand of philosophising that weve been subjected through every book since RG. ICE in ROTCG, despite what some saw as problems with the writing, had alot of fan favourites and I expected better from this book when he had the same. Instead of a ROTCG level of action,character building and revelation we got a second rate TTH with inconsistencies, sloppy editing (again) and no real progress.

My opinion ofc but im just disappointed.

[champ]

Very well put by both of you...

My first reaction was that I really enjoyed the book and it was ICE's best one yet, his writing and pace have improved since SW... but was this just my Malazan fan addiction talking?

I sit back and try to piece it all together, the few revelations, the different plots etc I can't help but think that under the surface it's more like SW than I first thought, especially with the details...

Details, details, details - I bet us demanding fans piss off the authors with our mindless need for information - I know it is not ICE/SE style to spoon feed us and I don't expect it to ever change, it's just not who they are but as you said, a touch more forth coming with some juicy tidbits is not too much to ask... is it? I know it is "show and not tell" writing but at least give us the information so we can put it all together...

I can remember reading SW, getting to the end and thinking - but that cannot be it - wheres this, this and this and that was how I know feel about OST, especially the Tyrant story line.

You have both covered pretty much my thoughts on the matter, nothing above that I totally disagree with... it's a sad day that I actually agree with a lot of it...

If it wasn't a Malazan book - would I have bought it on release day @ £20.00 - Probably not...

But at least it was a Malazan fix and thats not all that bad!

This post has been edited by champ: 23 January 2012 - 06:41 PM

[tiam]

 champ, on 23 January 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Very well put by both of you...

My first reaction was that I really enjoyed the book and it was ICE's best one yet, his writing and pace have improved since SW... but was this just my Malazan fan addiction talking?

I sit back and try to piece it all together, the few revelations, the different plots etc I can't help but think that under the surface it's more like SW than I first thought, especially with the details...

Details, details, details - I bet us demanding fans piss off the authors with our mindless need for information - I know it is not ICE/SE style to spoon feed us and I don't expect it to ever change, it's just not who they are but as you said, a touch more forth coming with some juicy tidbits is not too much to ask... is it? I know it is "show and not tell" writing but at least give us the information so we can put it all together...

I can remember reading SW, getting to the end and thinking - but that cannot be it - wheres this, this and this and that was how I know feel about OST, especially the Tyrant story line.

You have both covered pretty much my thoughts on the matter, nothing above that I totally disagree with... it's a sad day that I actually agree with a lot of it...

If it wasn't a Malazan book - would I have bought it on release day @ £20.00 - Probably not...

But at least it was a Malazan fix and thats not all that bad!

That exactly my point. I hardly want to be spoon fed the info but I want enough to be there so I can piece it together like with SE books.

I am faced with the exact same conclusion of would I knowingly buy this book again for 20 pound if it wasnt to feed the Malaz junkie? The answer is no. With SE atleast on a reread you piece together the plot a bit better but with this and SW it isnt there to piece together. Also with SE you knew it was going to be revisited in the main arc and would be brought up again. ICE is giving us standalone novels each on a different continent.

I know exactly how you feel. You wanted it to be good and when I was reading it, it was good but really this isnt up to scratch.

Disappointment

[BarbecueCougar]

Yeah, I'm finding it difficult to argue with any of the above. I'd also say that for me, the malaise I've got for the Malazan series stretches back as far as The Bonehunters. It's been disappointment after disappointment. It was about the halfway point in the main sequence that the characters began talking in riddles and hoarding all these stupid secrets from the reader. I don't get this whole "ICE/SE never spoonfeed us the information" thing- in MOI and DG Erikson did exactly that- we always knew pretty much what was going on. The later books are missing sections like the ones in Memories of Ice where Quick Ben talks us through exactly what he's doing and why, and or the revelatory discussions between Whiskeyjack and Dujek. The problem is that all the fan favourite characters who gave us all the exposition (Fiddler/Quick Ben etc.) suddenly became so mysterious, hiding all their inner thoughts and seemingly never talking to each other!

As for OST, I liked it, but really... the main villain, the Tyrant, who was he? I don't have a clue, and I probably should. I'll still keep reading, because I love the world, the depth and some of the characrers, but without any of the great expectations I once had. Looking at the Malazan books, my main feeling is one of sadness- this could have been one of the great fantasy series, but I probably wouldn't even recommend it to a friend now, which seems incredible, because Memories of Ice was for a long time my favourite novel.

Ah well, rant over. Back to lurking.

[Angel]

I can't help but offer the same opinion.

ICE's writing style makes me want to beat myself over the head. It's like being tiny little droplets that are meant to form together to make a big river at the end - but it just doesn't work! There are too many droplets coming from too many directions, and as was mentioned by the OP, I just don't care about these characters. I don't want to wait for the end of the story for my 'that's cool' moment, not that the end of the novel was in any way, particularly cool.

Some of my problems:

The Seguleh were destroyed by ICE. His description of sword battles is pedestrian. I got sick of reading 'something happened', or 'and then they started fighting' (the Palla scene for eg)... only to have the story resume ten plots later with the battle being over.

What was the purpose of the Tyrant? Weakest, lamest bad guy ever, who died in a pedestrian manner strangely befitting ICE"s writing.

Dassem is now the 1st - but he doesn't have to fight anyone...

...

...

...




Terrible.

It was a book that came with all the Mally bells and whistles, but forgot the key ingredient. QUALITY. Please look for it in the future ICE.

[Use Of Weapons]

Hmm. I do somewhat agree about Dassem becoming the First without having to fight. In some ways it was a typical Malaz inversion of expectation, but in others, it was a _predictable_ inversion. But that, I feel, is because the situation is inherently dichotomous: either he will fight, or he will not. Either he will become the First, or he won't. There's not much middle ground there. If a challenge must be accepted in order to proceed, then clearly Lo can't be the Seventh. But if Dassem takes the mask of the First (which can only be offered, not won), then that's a way out of it, if as a non-Seguleh he doesn't grok what the mask of the First now means to the rest of the Agatii. If by doing so, he can redeem the position of First in their eyes (and honestly, who better), that could well be the best outcome for the Seguleh and for Dassem himself.

[tiam]

 BarbecueCougar, on 24 January 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm finding it difficult to argue with any of the above. I'd also say that for me, the malaise I've got for the Malazan series stretches back as far as The Bonehunters. It's been disappointment after disappointment. It was about the halfway point in the main sequence that the characters began talking in riddles and hoarding all these stupid secrets from the reader. I don't get this whole "ICE/SE never spoonfeed us the information" thing- in MOI and DG Erikson did exactly that- we always knew pretty much what was going on. The later books are missing sections like the ones in Memories of Ice where Quick Ben talks us through exactly what he's doing and why, and or the revelatory discussions between Whiskeyjack and Dujek. The problem is that all the fan favourite characters who gave us all the exposition (Fiddler/Quick Ben etc.) suddenly became so mysterious, hiding all their inner thoughts and seemingly never talking to each other!

As for OST, I liked it, but really... the main villain, the Tyrant, who was he? I don't have a clue, and I probably should. I'll still keep reading, because I love the world, the depth and some of the characrers, but without any of the great expectations I once had. Looking at the Malazan books, my main feeling is one of sadness- this could have been one of the great fantasy series, but I probably wouldn't even recommend it to a friend now, which seems incredible, because Memories of Ice was for a long time my favourite novel.

Ah well, rant over. Back to lurking.

I actually agree with this. From BH onwards (bar TTH but that was because the writing was epic) ive felt like SE and ICE have created a universe they cant deliver on. I know alot of people didnt think TCG was a decent end to the series and found it incredibly difficult to get through. I didnt struggle but really after MT it does decline Im sorry to say.

 Angel, on 24 January 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

I can't help but offer the same opinion.

ICE's writing style makes me want to beat myself over the head. It's like being tiny little droplets that are meant to form together to make a big river at the end - but it just doesn't work! There are too many droplets coming from too many directions, and as was mentioned by the OP, I just don't care about these characters. I don't want to wait for the end of the story for my 'that's cool' moment, not that the end of the novel was in any way, particularly cool.

Some of my problems:

The Seguleh were destroyed by ICE. His description of sword battles is pedestrian. I got sick of reading 'something happened', or 'and then they started fighting' (the Palla scene for eg)... only to have the story resume ten plots later with the battle being over.

What was the purpose of the Tyrant? Weakest, lamest bad guy ever, who died in a pedestrian manner strangely befitting ICE"s writing.

Dassem is now the 1st - but he doesn't have to fight anyone...

...

...

...




Terrible.

It was a book that came with all the Mally bells and whistles, but forgot the key ingredient. QUALITY. Please look for it in the future ICE.

The Tyrant was a B movie bad guy with that mask. We are not going back to this continent till the Toblakai trilogy which is SE again. It answered no questions.

Dassem becoming First I thought was one of the best bits of this book. Jan was very interesting and the Seguleh First having to be awarded rather than earned aspect (while contradictory to MOI) was nice. Jans sacrifice at the end for the good of the Seguleh I thought was strong.

I agree with the rest.

EDIT- As ive said before ICE needs the Jacuruku novel or more likely the Assail novel to really be a bridge between his novels. Hes writing 5 standalone books each on a different continent yet giving us info as if were returning to it in a book or two. These books are the continuation of SE plotlines taken to fruition and this simply want it.

This post has been edited by tiam: 24 January 2012 - 07:37 PM

[Paran]

I enjoyed the book - it's ICE's best yet, but it's not up to SE standard. It's missing the mystery, the ability to inspire awe through the written words, doesn't complete the hints or hide them well. E.g. - the fact that Thenaj can walk in the Vitr should be something that makes me this "awesome", but it just came off as "that's cool... ish".

I feel ICE is like Paul Kearney light in style, but unfortunately he doesn't/can't bring the intensity into the story. He just doesn't have the capacity to tug the heart strings, which sucks, 'cos there have been some pretty awesome moments in his books that just don't deliver on emotion (e.g. Laseen's death). I liked the concept of using the 2nd and 3rd to flip the script on the Rake vs Traveller scene, but again, didn't quite deliver. He can't build up those moments..

The ever-living tyrant is a cool concept, and maybe the Tyrant was able to continuously use Jaghut's as his bodies previously? This is another example of stings left hanging.

Agree that the Malazan reaction to the Seguleh massacre was a bit too inconsistent, esp considering Malazan discipline in holding lines and following orders, etc. Malazan soldiers seemed somewhat underwhelming in this book...

Unanswered Q's:
- Who the "Him" that faced/escaped the Tyrant in the past?
- Who is Lo (too tall and skinny for normal Seguleh)?
- Where was Iron Bars?? Wasn't he supposed to be with Oru?
- So we had Baruk(anal), Vorcan, Aman, Hinter, Derudan, and Mamot died in GotM... who/where were/are the other 6?
- WTF are the Culls?
- What's the deal with the renegade Seguleh? Are there more? Is Studlock a Seguleh or not??
- WTF was the point of the Miner Imass?
- Orchid - just who is she? Daughter of Rake and Envy? Rake and Silanah? Draconus?

Ok, enough with bashing, good parts:
- Ansty
- Seeing the inside of Moon's Spawn
- Concepts. From the Tyrant (Mumrah the ever living... ish; Moranth guilds;)
- Fisher, whatever he is, it's awesome!
- Duiker stepping up
- Bridgeburners, Spindle especially...
- Kruppe
- Topper
- Leoman and the 'tache... Deputy Dan Stark style!

Other thoughts...
- Did the First offer the mask to Rake?
- Shame Mok didn't make an appearance
- ditto for Karsa
- Characters seemed consistent w/ SE's representation
- Brood rocked!
- shame there was reflections on Murillio by Rallick, Kruppe, Coll...
- segues to Stonny and Harlo didn't add much

[Cause]

Unanswered Q's:
- Who the "Him" that faced/escaped the Tyrant in the past?: My guess is Kruppe. The circle breaker of the perfect circle of ruler ship. Not examined enough
- Where was Iron Bars?? Wasn't he supposed to be with Oru?: no they parted ways and Iron Bars went on to Fist
- What's the deal with the renegade Seguleh? Are there more? Is Studlock a Seguleh or not??: Def more. Studlock is not human I think
- WTF was the point of the Miner Imass?: No idea, more important why was he allowed to leave the house!
- Orchid - just who is she? Daughter of Rake and Envy? Rake and Silanah? Draconus?: My guess was Rake and Silanah, could be anyone.

Other thoughts...
- Shame Mok didn't make an appearance: I feel this was ICE purposefully replacing a SE character with his own
- ditto for Karsa: I disagree not ever character must take part in everything
- Characters seemed consistent w/ SE's representation: Disagree. Envy and Kruppe felt odd especially
- Brood rocked!:He travelled north, he travelled back south. He punched a rock! Also made the entire BB story line redundant in doing so.

[amphibian]

I agree with the vast majority of the criticisms already stated here.

Quick run through: better writing than the past three books, but still large chunks of stilted passages, unsubtle characters and some moronic non-answers regarding the Tyrant. The sacrifice of Jan was good, while big portions of the Moon's Spawn storylines and Spindle/Kruppe/Rallick/Caladan Brood/Torvald Nom/Coll were very good. ICE showed a nice willingness to build up the Malazan soldiers and kill off some of them (although it is stupid to have 400 duelists charge a massed shield-bearing army numbering in the thousands).

Also, who in the eff is on the cover? It is literally Generic Fantasy Guy. Only realistic option I see is Corian Lim, which is really a bizarre choice for a cover character.

ICE needs to find a more challenging editor. The talent and imagination is there, but he's allowed to be too complacent about not providing substance and the prose is not consistent at all.

I am actually considering jumping ship on this author and I'm an enormous Malazan junkie. This is four books, with three being full novels, by ICE and these problems are not going away. There needs to be a radical shake-up or he's going to chug along exactly as he's going right now.

[Urizen]

 Paran, on 25 January 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Unanswered Q's:
- So we had Baruk(anal), Vorcan, Aman, Hinter, Derudan, and Mamot died in GotM... who/where were/are the other 6?
- WTF are the Culls?
- Is Studlock a Seguleh or not??
- Orchid - just who is she? Daughter of Rake and Envy? Rake and Silanah? Draconus?

- I don't think we get all the names but the heavy implication from GOTM and TTH, is that the other 6 T'orrud cabal members allowed Vorcan to kill them to avoid the Tyrant's return.

- The Culls I suspect are another group of people from Assail much like Kyle's friends from ROTCG.

- Studlock don't appear to be Seguleh to me. Upon re-reads of OST I've started to wonder if Studlock might not be a Forkrul Assail given that he's appearently very hard to kill and at one point I seem to remember him being described as having multiple joints in his hand/arm, which is how FA's are described.

- I'd say the Daughter of Rake and Silanah or maybe Tiam.

[blackzoid]

I loved this book, (except for the Spawn bits. Those were rubbish.)

I loved the linking together of the history of the peoples of Genebackis.
We got:
1: A reason for the use of masks by the upperclass in Darujhistan during fetes and parties (like in GoTM). Its a remnant of what they did in the Tyrant's court.
2: A reason for why the Moranth developed munitions and an implied reason for why they started wearing armour from head to toe. Its to combat the Seguleh.

I loved the Seguleh in theis book. In the past, they have been on "our" side, but with their description as an occupying force, they were terrifying. The anger of the Rhvi and Moranth to them was well done. Though I thought the tearfullness of the Malazan's to their firebombing was overdone. The Malazan's have used munitions constantly in an unfair manner. And Jan did have the honesty to think that the Moranth had no obligation after all to fight the Seguleh on the Seguleh's terms.

Daseem and the Seguleh? Fantastic. The Jan-Gall fight was deliberately an echo of the Rake-Daseem fight, with Gall being broken at the end (and Dassem offering him some sympathy). Gall was doing what he thought was best for the Seguleh, he wasn't a douche like the 3rd at the start of the book. And the fact that Lo didn't actually fight Daseem was a good inversion of expectations.
Daseem's story is now done and he has found a place to heal. I imagine that Daseem will never kill another person.

[Angel]

 blackzoid, on 25 January 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

I loved this book, (except for the Spawn bits. Those were rubbish.)

I loved the linking together of the history of the peoples of Genebackis.
We got:
1: A reason for the use of masks by the upperclass in Darujhistan during fetes and parties (like in GoTM). Its a remnant of what they did in the Tyrant's court.
2: A reason for why the Moranth developed munitions and an implied reason for why they started wearing armour from head to toe. Its to combat the Seguleh.

I loved the Seguleh in theis book. In the past, they have been on "our" side, but with their description as an occupying force, they were terrifying. The anger of the Rhvi and Moranth to them was well done. Though I thought the tearfullness of the Malazan's to their firebombing was overdone. The Malazan's have used munitions constantly in an unfair manner. And Jan did have the honesty to think that the Moranth had no obligation after all to fight the Seguleh on the Seguleh's terms.

Daseem and the Seguleh? Fantastic. The Jan-Gall fight was deliberately an echo of the Rake-Daseem fight, with Gall being broken at the end (and Dassem offering him some sympathy). Gall was doing what he thought was best for the Seguleh, he wasn't a douche like the 3rd at the start of the book. And the fact that Lo didn't actually fight Daseem was a good inversion of expectations.
Daseem's story is now done and he has found a place to heal. I imagine that Daseem will never kill another person.

An inversion of expectation only works if a) people don't anticipate the inversion, or the inversion isn't crap.

With this in mind, could you really not see this coming? Why else was Dassem travelling to D, other than to meet the Seguleh? When you add into it the points that the 2nd was a good guy (so Dassem wasn't going to fight him) and Gall was always going to challenge him - well, I realised very quickly that there was actually nobody for Dassem to fight in an epic battle. Is that dissapointing? Sure, more than a little. It was obvious that he was going to take a position, otherwise he would have stayed in his nice hillside homestead. So no, this wasn't a particularly creative move, nor was the idea of 'sacrifice' again thrown in. We only had that a few books ago!


If you didn't anticipate from all the previous hints that the Seguleh had an interaction with D'stan in the past, and hence it made sense for them to wear masks, I'm not sure what series you were reading. That isn't new information, nor is it particularly exciting.


Anyway, each to their own. My biggest query would be where this series is actually going? Unlike SE, who seems to have some purpose with his stories (the CG storyline predominantly), these standalone versions just jump around from character to character, and I can't for the life of me figure out, what's the end point? Each story, some 'bad' character is created, or used, and defeated. Each story, some character beats this bad guy convincingly, in the process referencing a 'slow release' of Malaz information and history. I find myself wondering why I read these stories purely for the history. The world building is becoming very narrow, as is the scope and direction of these stories. You cannot argue that the Moranth from earlier novels were given any sort of justice in OST- at all! Dassem was boring and predicatable. The MS plot, the referencing the Gardens of the Moon, the Confederation - that was all trivial sidequests that you expect to find as optional in a RPG. There is also a very real sense with these stories that death doesn't mean anything, and hence, we shouldn't feel any sympathy when a character dies, because they'll likely be back in one form or another. It is all becoming very romanticised and to be honest, the improvement rate of ICE, is NOT good enough for an author with his established base. No other author would be given the opportunity to peddle what he is peddling. You could find fan fiction that would do the same job.

This post has been edited by Angel: 25 January 2012 - 01:38 PM

[blackzoid]

 Angel, on 25 January 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

An inversion of expectation only works if a) people don't anticipate the inversion, or the inversion isn't crap.

With this in mind, could you really not see this coming? Why else was Dassem travelling to D, other than to meet the Seguleh? When you add into it the points that the 2nd was a good guy (so Dassem wasn't going to fight him) and Gall was always going to challenge him - well, I realised very quickly that there was actually nobody for Dassem to fight in an epic battle. Is that dissapointing? Sure, more than a little. It was obvious that he was going to take a position, otherwise he would have stayed in his nice hillside homestead. So no, this wasn't a particularly creative move, nor was the idea of 'sacrifice' again thrown in. We only had that a few books ago!

Well all I can say as regards my expectations is that I expected that Daseem would possibly fight Lo and would certainly fight the evil Gall after Gall killed the good Jan. Than Daseem would order the Seguleh from the city. The fact that Jan maipulated Gall in the same manner that Rake manipulated Daseem is not at all what I expected. I didn't anticipate that Gall would step aside voluntarily (unless you mean from about a page ahead of time, which I don't think counts). The lack of an epic sword fight for Daseem was fine with me. Deseem/Rake was probably the greatest sword fight he had ever been in. We had already read about him demolishing Kallor and Skinner in RotCG as well. Did we really need another Daseem uber-fight?

Yes, it was obvious he was going to take a position (he is a swordsman after all) but not obvious that it would have been a non-violent way to do it. Which worked with the theme of Daseem trying to give up sword-fighting. The cliche would have been the master from the mountains coming back for one last fight. Unless I have not seen enough kung-fu films and that is actually not the cliche.

As regards the inversion being crap, well thats a subjective choice for people I think. It worked for me.

 Angel, on 25 January 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

If you didn't anticipate from all the previous hints that the Seguleh had an interaction with D'stan in the past, and hence it made sense for them to wear masks, I'm not sure what series you were reading. That isn't new information, nor is it particularly exciting.

Yes I knew that the Seguleh were connected to the city. What I did not put together was where the tradition of the noblemen of D'stan duelling and that the noblemen (not the Tyrant nor the Seguleh) used to wear masks at fetes and parties as a result of that tradition of being in the Tyrant's court. I'm not sure that anyone in this forum has ever made the link between the masks worn at the fete at the climax of GOTM and the Seguleh masks. I presumed most people thought it was coincidence, but I stand ready to be corrected.

Additionally there has never been speculation to my mind by anyone on this forum, that the Moranth originally developed explsives to fight the Seguleh. That was very interesting information to me, that was never thought of by the fans, but looking back in hindsight makes sense. But again, perhaps I was wrong and this was common speculation. It certainly added to the richness of the Tyrant storyline and tied the disparate peoples of Genebackis together.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 25 January 2012 - 03:04 PM

[tiam]

 blackzoid, on 25 January 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

 Angel, on 25 January 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

An inversion of expectation only works if a) people don't anticipate the inversion, or the inversion isn't crap.

With this in mind, could you really not see this coming? Why else was Dassem travelling to D, other than to meet the Seguleh? When you add into it the points that the 2nd was a good guy (so Dassem wasn't going to fight him) and Gall was always going to challenge him - well, I realised very quickly that there was actually nobody for Dassem to fight in an epic battle. Is that dissapointing? Sure, more than a little. It was obvious that he was going to take a position, otherwise he would have stayed in his nice hillside homestead. So no, this wasn't a particularly creative move, nor was the idea of 'sacrifice' again thrown in. We only had that a few books ago!

Well all I can say as regards my expectations is that I expected that Daseem would possibly fight Lo and would certainly fight the evil Gall after Gall killed the good Jan. Than Daseem would order the Seguleh from the city. The fact that Jan maipulated Gall in the same manner that Rake manipulated Daseem is not at all what I expected. I didn't anticipate that Gall would step aside voluntarily (unless you mean from about a page ahead of time, which I don't think counts). The lack of an epic sword fight for Daseem was fine with me. Deseem/Rake was probably the greatest sword fight he had ever been in. We had already read about him demolishing Kallor and Skinner in RotCG as well. Did we really need another Daseem uber-fight?

Yes, it was obvious he was going to take a position (he is a swordsman after all) but not obvious that it would have been a non-violent way to do it. Which worked with the theme of Daseem trying to give up sword-fighting. The cliche would have been the master from the mountains coming back for one last fight. Unless I have not seen enough kung-fu films and that is actually not the cliche.

As regards the inversion being crap, well thats a subjective choice for people I think. It worked for me.

 Angel, on 25 January 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

If you didn't anticipate from all the previous hints that the Seguleh had an interaction with D'stan in the past, and hence it made sense for them to wear masks, I'm not sure what series you were reading. That isn't new information, nor is it particularly exciting.

Yes I knew that the Seguleh were connected to the city. What I did not put together was where the tradition of the noblemen of D'stan duelling and that the noblemen (not the Tyrant nor the Seguleh) used to wear masks at fetes and parties as a result of that tradition of being in the Tyrant's court. I'm not sure that anyone in this forum has ever made the link between the masks worn at the fete at the climax of GOTM and the Seguleh masks. I presumed most people thought it was coincidence, but I stand ready to be corrected.

Additionally there has never been speculation to my mind by anyone on this forum, that the Moranth originally developed explsives to fight the Seguleh. That was very interesting information to me, that was never thought of by the fans, but looking back in hindsight makes sense. But again, perhaps I was wrong and this was common speculation. It certainly added to the richness of the Tyrant storyline and tied the disparate peoples of Genebackis together.

I also never put together the fact that the Councilmen and people of D'stan wear masks because of a Seguleh. I simply assumed it was to do with the fete of Gedderone whereas there was a growth in this book to mirror the golden mask of the Tyrant in a courtly fashion.

As to why the Moranth developed munitions it wasnt to combat the Seguleh. They simply learnt them from the Tist'en'ur according to Cafal in MOI, referring to the Edur obviously. This was at a time when they and the Moranth, who were Barghast at this time,were fighting on the sea with the Edur. I never understood how large numbers of Edur sailed around the world to Genabackis and 7C when only 18000 made it through after the battle with the KCCM. Hopefully this will be explained as a splinter group who went looking for different land/Scabbys soul on a fleet of ships. That would explain the link between the HFE and KE, why the Moranth have a fragment of KE in Cloud Forest and the Edur population on the Island of Sepik. In any case the Moranth simply learnt it from the Edur.

I had a problem with the fact that Ebbin was ridiculed by the scholarly community in D'stan for looking into a D'stan Imperial Age. Admittedly in D'stan proof of the period may have been concealed but if it was a D'stan led Genabackan confederacy of cities then there should have been some evidence. There Rhivi legends and all sorts of relation to the Moranth but no other reference. I found that hard to swallow as I did with Broods lack of inactivity, moaning about how people have forgotten hes an ancient powerful being sitting down fo a while after walking, then nullifying the BB plot then disappearing.

[blackzoid]

 tiam, on 25 January 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

As to why the Moranth developed munitions it wasnt to combat the Seguleh. They simply learnt them from the Tist'en'ur according to Cafal in MOI, referring to the Edur obviously. This was at a time when they and the Moranth, who were Barghast at this time,were fighting on the sea with the Edur. I never understood how large numbers of Edur sailed around the world to Genabackis and 7C when only 18000 made it through after the battle with the KCCM. Hopefully this will be explained as a splinter group who went looking for different land/Scabbys soul on a fleet of ships. That would explain the link between the HFE and KE, why the Moranth have a fragment of KE in Cloud Forest and the Edur population on the Island of Sepik. In any case the Moranth simply learnt it from the Edur.

Ya I know the Moranth spoke to the Edur and declared peace instead of fighting them like the Barghast did and according to Cafal they taught the Moranth the use of alchemies, but its strange that neither the Edur nor the Andii or Liosan have never used muntions before. I know the Edur have lost much knowledge, but its never mentioned once in connection with the Edur again. And they display shock at the Malazan use of it against them. I wonder if Cafal knew the full truth about that, he is a pov from an antagonistc culture to the Moranth after all.

If we have to use his explanation as gospel, we can say that perhaps the Moranth only developed muntions on a huge scale when the Tyrants and the Seguleh first arose, but were taught the THEORY of munitions from the Edur long before. This tracks with Jan thinking that the Moranth have enhanced their weapon effectiveness since the ancient wars of the Seguleh and the Moranth.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 25 January 2012 - 05:05 PM

[Messremb]

 Paran, on 25 January 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Unanswered Q's:
- So we had Baruk(anal), Vorcan, Aman, Hinter, Derudan, and Mamot died in GotM... who/where were/are the other 6?

Vorcan indicates there are 9 targets when she takes the contract to kill them all, herself makes it to 10, I assume the one remaining tomb where the Tyrant was imprisoned was an eleventh, who was the twelfth though?

We have Mammot, Derudan, Paral, Tholas and Travale die in GotM.

[Illuyankas]

Characters with names who died: Jan, Bendan's sergeant (Hethok or whatever), Fist Steppen, uh, Jlegate Lim? Maybe?
Characters we gave a damn about who died: Apart from Jan, possibly, not a single damn person.

"The Seguleh and the other guy moved near each other. The other guy fell down."
"The Imass and Palla fought for a bit. The Imass won."
More descriptive fighting would be nice, just maybe.

Things we learnt about the Moranth: Their city is nice, they had colonies across Genabackis, they specialised to deal with the Seguleh who pushed them back to the mountains, they don't use enough flamers.
Things we didn't learn about the Moranth: Literally every other facet of their society.

Things we learnt about the Tyrant: He's a mask! All Tyrants have been him, or at least all of them after Raest! He summoned and chained 12 demons to fight for him!
Things we didn't learn about the Tyrant: Who is he? No, seriously, who is he? Where did he come from? What is the source of his power? What warrens does he use? Why is he so terrible in every scene where he wasn't ripping off other people's faces with his mask?

How did Scorch and Leff get those bolts again? How many times can Taya be UTTERLY SHOCKED that someone didn't immediately die against her? Could ICE have written Humble Measure and Barathol making the bolts and then unmaking the mask any more obtuse and unclear? If they didn't make the arrows, where the fuck did they come from? How can one Seguleh parry the body mass of a dozen screaming Malazans charging with shields locked? Why didn't the Moranth mages simply murder the Seguleh safely out of sword range from quorlback? "T'renn"? Why include a Karsa cameo and then not include a Torvald/Karsa reunion scene? (unless that's happening in the Karsa trilogy which is a shame but I've waited this long I guess) (also I'll have more questions later damn it!)


Up to 60% through I was enjoying it and how much ICE had improved over previous books and looking forward to the ending, and by the end I was regretting the lack of anything happening that I cared about, no plotlines ending well, no questions answered whether from before or asked this book. ICE is pretty good at simultaneously improving and getting worse in separate areas, but overall I was still disappointed after the good start. The fact I didn't pay the full £20 I saw it costing in Waterstones and got the nearly half price Kindle version is a big factor in me not being as pissed as I could be, I suppose.

[champ]

Fully agree Illy, I was hooked on the book when I started reading it, I thought ICE had really improved as a writer and I couldn't wait to find out the resolution at the end, who the Tyrant was, the truth behind the Seguleh masks (wooden one, why Rake had the first) and just where the 12 came from, these things to name a few, safe to say when these details didnt materialise I was somewhat disappointed... SW all over again!