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D, on 12 January 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:
Lots of good points in there I hadn't thought of or didn't remember...
Had totally forgotten the mention of the 2nd missing in MoI, good call.
Also I like how it furthers my crazy Jan = Senu theory.
It's interesting to note as well that the undead 2nd's feud with Skinner seems to be quite personal, not a tasked forced upon him by Hood. Though I suppose he could've been tasked with hunting down Skinner by Hood (I'm sure given Skinner's craziness Hood could have a good reason for it) and then after Skinner got the best of him in their first encounter it got personal.
Doesn't work particularly well for the Skinner angle because the Crimson Guard on Genebackis were the (Shimmer's) 3rd Company (who packed up and left for the south side of the Assail continent around MoI so Kyle could star in RotCG), and I believe Shimmer notes in RotCG that her company hasn't run into Skinner's 1st Company (who have been around Jacuruku somewhat in the last while) in a long time.
Of course that's exactly the kind of details ICE doesn't usually comply with, but I would hope how the Jacuruku bit is from his own stories that he would match up with this one!
In tBH he was called the Soldier, and the glossaries up until then TtH said the Knight was Baudin. OTOH, TtH showed us these things are pretty interchangeable, so who knows.
2000, 3000 what's the difference
I do like the idea that he lead the Revenants, it seems more meaningful and a better fit than Studious Lock (unless Studious turns out to be undead under all those bandages). But of course you could argue equally that the 2nd became associated with Hood and the Revenants before dying or raised up the Revenants as part of some job for Hood after becoming Soldier.
I think the biggest indicator for me is that he knew the long-form names of the Torrud Cabal and not knowing where the Seguleh had gone to from Darujhistan (he's surprised when Crokus says it's an island off Morn). I feel that any attempts to make that fit with him being alive in the last century means you need a reason for most of the Seguleh to have stayed in the city cavorting with the Torrud long past the Tyrant's demise, but that doesn't fit with their mysterious reputation amongst all the other Genebackii cultures as isolated and not known to be seen much outside their island.
tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:
However as late as MOI we see that Krul mentions the Second was missing. Jan is presumably new to the role which is fine but we have a missing Seguleh Second and a rogue undead Seguleh Second. Hence (as you say) the initial leap of logic that the undead one was the missing one mentioned. However how does this tie to Skinner? Granted its plausible that over the last thousand years they have crossed blades or had some contact but based on ROTCG knowledge it would have had to have been recent as Skinner is only 100+ years old. You say we now 'know for certain that he wasnt Seguleh Second before Jan' but, while that is possible, I still think its possible for him to be the same character. As you say its guess work with the age.
Had totally forgotten the mention of the 2nd missing in MoI, good call.
Also I like how it furthers my crazy Jan = Senu theory.
It's interesting to note as well that the undead 2nd's feud with Skinner seems to be quite personal, not a tasked forced upon him by Hood. Though I suppose he could've been tasked with hunting down Skinner by Hood (I'm sure given Skinner's craziness Hood could have a good reason for it) and then after Skinner got the best of him in their first encounter it got personal.
tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:
-Linked with the CGRD thus explaining the Skinner hatred as Jorrick Sharplance was active there
Doesn't work particularly well for the Skinner angle because the Crimson Guard on Genebackis were the (Shimmer's) 3rd Company (who packed up and left for the south side of the Assail continent around MoI so Kyle could star in RotCG), and I believe Shimmer notes in RotCG that her company hasn't run into Skinner's 1st Company (who have been around Jacuruku somewhat in the last while) in a long time.
Of course that's exactly the kind of details ICE doesn't usually comply with, but I would hope how the Jacuruku bit is from his own stories that he would match up with this one!
tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:
-Dassem had been Hoods Knight for a while so its possible the Second took over from Dassem as this somewhat fits the timeline.
In tBH he was called the Soldier, and the glossaries up until then TtH said the Knight was Baudin. OTOH, TtH showed us these things are pretty interchangeable, so who knows.
tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:
As for your 'when' of the Seguleh Second- I thought D'Stan was only 2000 years old according to Baruk though Hetan (forum member) mentions some things have been changed and this may be one of them. Still, the age of the Tyrants may have only lasted around 500 years. While we dont know the nature of these Tyrants they may have had (or some of the them may have had) mortal lifespans, with the last Tyrant being something special. They seem humanoid on the coins that have been found though this ofc means little. As for lengthy succession of Tyrants I thought there was only 7, though its been many years since I read that portion of GOTM.
2000, 3000 what's the difference
I do like the idea that he lead the Revenants, it seems more meaningful and a better fit than Studious Lock (unless Studious turns out to be undead under all those bandages). But of course you could argue equally that the 2nd became associated with Hood and the Revenants before dying or raised up the Revenants as part of some job for Hood after becoming Soldier.
I think the biggest indicator for me is that he knew the long-form names of the Torrud Cabal and not knowing where the Seguleh had gone to from Darujhistan (he's surprised when Crokus says it's an island off Morn). I feel that any attempts to make that fit with him being alive in the last century means you need a reason for most of the Seguleh to have stayed in the city cavorting with the Torrud long past the Tyrant's demise, but that doesn't fit with their mysterious reputation amongst all the other Genebackii cultures as isolated and not known to be seen much outside their island.
Seguleh point-Indeed it seems personal as you say but I dont think its a job by Hood that just happens to be personal. We see in TBH that Second is furious at Hood derailing him from his personal quest of hunting down Skinner. What initially put me off this was the fact that Skinner is foremost warrior or the CGRD and the Hood may have initially have sent the Second after him as revenge against the essence of the CGRD itself i.e. theyve dodged death so the Second, on Hoods orders, was hunting down those who have dodged Hoods grasp in the same way he hates the Imass for defying him for so long.
Skinner Genabackis point- Indeed this had occured to me to and does admittedly throw a spanner in the works. The thing is we know Dassem clashed with numerous Guardsmen, including Skinner and its never stated where. Admittedly Dassem falls before the Genabackis campaign (or before One Eye Cat atleast) so his clash with Skinner must have been on Quon. Ofcourse my crazy theory is correct and Cowl magicked him over from Stratem to kill the Second
I also hope hes consistent with his own books but then the priestess from ROTCG that decalres Ereko sacrosanct and turns up in SW was Edur I thought, though her race may not have been stated. Even so shes commanding Edur so im not sure how shed be anything but. Anyway Hetan has mentioned theres some changes including a gender swap which is always fun
Dassem and the Soldier- This annoyed me since Baudin was mentioned as the Knight of HHD and I think I even made a post about it. It seems pretty clear the the Second was always the Knight and Baudin the Soldier given their skill levels. I remember being surprised that the knights go Rake, Osserc etc then Hood changes from Dassem to Baudin.
Revenants and D'Stan- Yes as I mentioned in my post the Second could have simply led the Revenants while undead. And again as I said in my post your probably right
. TBH I like the idea of the Second instigating a level of social unrest amongst the Seguleh, mocking their new (to him at least as I admit hes probably ancient given his views) traditions and leading a few enlightened souls away to serve his new master. Would make for some good reading.
This post has been edited by tiam: 12 January 2012 - 11:19 PM
