[Flawed]

After reading the prologue and the first 2 chapters I cannot wait for the entire book to come out. Amazon still has it as 19th of Jan. This is fine as I get paid on the 15th. Yoik.

Drooling aside.

The whole Segluth thing is a lot simpler then I think we are reading into. Jan is the Second. He has risen there by way of singular skill. He had to defeat those above him as will the people below him to gain rank.

Now in previous books a lot was made about the whole dual weild factor. But also remember that a lot was made about how secretive the Segluth were. No one really knew much about them except you don’t get into a staring contest with one of them.

So I think its perfectly reasonable for a Segluth to be proficiently skilled in a two handed weapon instead of 2. Traditional doesn’t mean “ you have to “

We saw two people fight in the prologue with one weapon each. This isn’t complete proof that there is some irregularities within the books saying that all Segluth use 2 swords. If its traditional and this type of society that would mean preferred but its not essential.

And even if it was the “ correct thing to do “ in a society where by skill with a sword is everything it would stand to reason that they could use whatever sword they wanted to in whichever situation arose.

Too much is being read into this whole scenario.

I am really looking into reading more into the book and all the characters that were revealed and what may come about. It seems too long since the last release and as I get older I find it harder and harder to find a book in this genre I haven’t read.

I guess its always faster to read then it is to write.

[tiam]

Flawed, on 10 January 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

After reading the prologue and the first 2 chapters I cannot wait for the entire book to come out. Amazon still has it as 19th of Jan. This is fine as I get paid on the 15th. Yoik.

Drooling aside.

The whole Segluth thing is a lot simpler then I think we are reading into. Jan is the Second. He has risen there by way of singular skill. He had to defeat those above him as will the people below him to gain rank.

Now in previous books a lot was made about the whole dual weild factor. But also remember that a lot was made about how secretive the Segluth were. No one really knew much about them except you don’t get into a staring contest with one of them.

So I think its perfectly reasonable for a Segluth to be proficiently skilled in a two handed weapon instead of 2. Traditional doesn’t mean “ you have to “

We saw two people fight in the prologue with one weapon each. This isn’t complete proof that there is some irregularities within the books saying that all Segluth use 2 swords. If its traditional and this type of society that would mean preferred but its not essential.

And even if it was the “ correct thing to do “ in a society where by skill with a sword is everything it would stand to reason that they could use whatever sword they wanted to in whichever situation arose.

Too much is being read into this whole scenario.

I am really looking into reading more into the book and all the characters that were revealed and what may come about. It seems too long since the last release and as I get older I find it harder and harder to find a book in this genre I haven’t read.

I guess its always faster to read then it is to write.

Yes too much is being read into the fact he uses one sword instead of two.

I completely agree that im looking forward to this more than I was TCG I think. Blasphemy I know but still...SEGULEHZ

[Hetan]

This book is a much more solid and enjoyable read than anything Ice has produced yet.

Being based in Darujhistan it does of course have a little of the feel of Gardens of the Moon about it but the flow of the novel is much smoother and more pleasurable to read. One of the things I found really annoying in Stonewielder was the way the character PoV's were written as I found them short, disjointed and clunky. This book has managed to avoid all of that and I think it's quite plain that Ice is getting into his writing stride. Whilst I said it has a feel of Gardens of the Moon it is almost as good to read as Memories of Ice but without the epic battles and Holy Shit! moments. I can't say that there's been any really big surprises in it for me but Rallick Nom is Rallick Nom, Leoman is the same and Ice has done a good job of writing what I consider to be the more difficult characters like Kruppe.

Another thing that I have enjoyed about the book is that it is purely a story and has less of the philosophising that Steve tends to insert into his novels (and which, quite frankly I do tend to speed read through and then don't read them again) and I think that helps the novel stay on track and keep you immersed in whats being written.

I hope it's not his Memories of Ice because this is a good book and I would hope he has still more room for improvement - the story flows well and despite some issues with continuity with certain things that Steve has written about (another gender switch, some names, the location of the spawns etc - blah blah ) I think the majority are going to be well pleased with it - I know I am

[Abalieno]

Hetan, on 10 January 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

despite some issues with continuity with certain things that Steve has written about (another gender switch, some names, the location of the spawns etc - blah blah ) I think the majority are going to be well pleased with it - I know I am

I'm wondering why ICE isn't getting you or others involved sooner in the writing process so that these kinds of issues could be easily dealt with.

I mean, if his editors aren't as familiar with the nature of the work, why not using a bit more the community so that the finished product is the best possible?

[tiam]

Hetan, on 10 January 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

This book is a much more solid and enjoyable read than anything Ice has produced yet.

Being based in Darujhistan it does of course have a little of the feel of Gardens of the Moon about it but the flow of the novel is much smoother and more pleasurable to read. One of the things I found really annoying in Stonewielder was the way the character PoV's were written as I found them short, disjointed and clunky. This book has managed to avoid all of that and I think it's quite plain that Ice is getting into his writing stride. Whilst I said it has a feel of Gardens of the Moon it is almost as good to read as Memories of Ice but without the epic battles and Holy Shit! moments. I can't say that there's been any really big surprises in it for me but Rallick Nom is Rallick Nom, Leoman is the same and Ice has done a good job of writing what I consider to be the more difficult characters like Kruppe.

Another thing that I have enjoyed about the book is that it is purely a story and has less of the philosophising that Steve tends to insert into his novels (and which, quite frankly I do tend to speed read through and then don't read them again) and I think that helps the novel stay on track and keep you immersed in whats being written.

I hope it's not his Memories of Ice because this is a good book and I would hope he has still more room for improvement - the story flows well and despite some issues with continuity with certain things that Steve has written about (another gender switch, some names, the location of the spawns etc - blah blah ) I think the majority are going to be well pleased with it - I know I am

This is making me happy.

I think thats why I really liked ROTCG because it came out around the same time (sort of) as TTH and provided a stark contrast to SE more philosopical writing and was very enjoyable. I expected some inconsistencies between works tbh (im interested to see Antsy as a woman ) but aslong as it doesnt take away from the narrative structure I dont mind. If its along the lines as the unexplained missing/fake Kazz plotline then it should be ok and not a deal breaker.

BTW Hetan I expect a nice OST quote in your sog to go mad at

Abeliono- I couldnt agree more. Why not let those who know the books inside out go through them to find these little niggles. If hes changed it for the plot then fine but if theyre simply oversights...

This post has been edited by tiam: 10 January 2012 - 05:16 PM

[Asharak]

How much of the book have you read Hetan?

[Paran]

Wow, no reviews of the book prior to release?

[amphibian]

Abalieno, on 10 January 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

I mean, if his editors aren't as familiar with the nature of the work, why not using a bit more the community so that the finished product is the best possible?

Because 1) he essentially has no relationship with this community and 2) probably because he and his editors feel they are doing just fine.

It's been a bone of contention for a while now. I don't see it changing anytime soon. At least, we're buoyed by hopes that he is indeed getting better and isn't just polishing off 15 year old books and submitting them with very litttle updating or editing.

[Greyfrog32]

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

[amphibian]

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

This is the least useful comment in the thread. What Hood's Soldier of Death (the undead Seguleh Second) says to Crokus and Heboric is exactly the teaser text on the back of the book.

To paraphrase him, "The Tyrant will return. The Seguleh have something to do with it and have a strong connection to Darujhistan. The Torrud Cabal are related to the Tyrant and have been in power for a very long time."

That's all. What additional information are you drawing from this scene?

[Greyfrog32]

amphibian, on 11 January 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

This is the least useful comment in the thread. What Hood's Soldier of Death (the undead Seguleh Second) says to Crokus and Heboric is exactly the teaser text on the back of the book.

To paraphrase him, "The Tyrant will return. The Seguleh have something to do with it and have a strong connection to Darujhistan. The Torrud Cabal are related to the Tyrant and have been in power for a very long time."

That's all. What additional information are you drawing from this scene?

Well it shows where the seguleh came from and what purpose they were made for

[Greyfrog32]

and anyways its just a great scene

[amphibian]

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Well it shows where the seguleh came from and what purpose they were made for

Not really. Nor does it show "whats going to happen with seguleh".

[Hust]

I can't wait for this book to come out.

I'm not the biggest ICE fan, I think SE is a better writer overall.

But on reading the prologue it feels like his writing has matured and he is now more comfortable describing his creations.

Its good to see some familiar characters in the new book - Kruppe, Rallick Nom, who fingers crossed will not be significantly different than in tMBotF.

I will be very interesting to see what the story behind the Seguleh is. Also the moranth angle came out of nowhere for me.

Roll on release date.

[tiam]

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

Kind of agree with Amph here. Weve all read TBH and weve all most likely reread the Seguleh scene. The only thing thats interesting is he says things along the lines of 'the Seguleh are being held back in readiness' suggesting a level of forethought from potentially the Tyrant though this is ofc speculation. Another hint is actually in your sig in that the Second seems unaware of the location of the Seguleh, I think he even claims its madness that there is no Seguleh in the city at all, again suggesting that theyre being held in readiness but also they may have moved more recently to the Island, rather than being there traditional homeland.

This post has been edited by tiam: 11 January 2012 - 11:16 PM

[D'rek]

tiam, on 11 January 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

Kind of agree with Amph here. Weve all read TBH and weve all most likely reread the Seguleh scene. The only thing thats interesting is he says things along the lines of 'the Seguleh are being held back in readiness' suggesting a level of forethought from potentially the Tyrant though this is ofc speculation. Another hint is actually in your sig in that the Second seems unaware of the location of the Seguleh, I think he even claims its madness that there is no Seguleh in the city at all, again suggesting that theyre being held in readiness but also they may have moved more recently to the Island, rather than being there traditional homeland.

The undead Seguleh 2nd is clearly a little out-of-touch with the living Seguleh's current situation, though. He is surprised there are no Seguleh in the city, surprised they still tend to be unspoken to foreigners, and later remarks that the Seguleh in Dragnipur have different principles than he does. So the bit about the Seguleh being held in readiness for the Tyrant's return could easily be just a misunderstanding/assumption on his part. That doesn't mean the Seguleh will not play an important part in the return of the last Tyrant King (or lack thereof), but their reason for leaving Darujhistan and settling on that island may not be a matter of being held in readiness.

Given Oru's quest to relciam their honour, their vow of silence, etc, I wonder if maybe when the last Tyrant King fell they retired to settle on a secluded island out of shame.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 12 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

[tiam]

D, on 12 January 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

tiam, on 11 January 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

Kind of agree with Amph here. Weve all read TBH and weve all most likely reread the Seguleh scene. The only thing thats interesting is he says things along the lines of 'the Seguleh are being held back in readiness' suggesting a level of forethought from potentially the Tyrant though this is ofc speculation. Another hint is actually in your sig in that the Second seems unaware of the location of the Seguleh, I think he even claims its madness that there is no Seguleh in the city at all, again suggesting that theyre being held in readiness but also they may have moved more recently to the Island, rather than being there traditional homeland.

The undead Seguleh 2nd is clearly a little out-of-touch with the living Seguleh's current situation, though. He is surprised there are no Seguleh in the city, surprised they still tend to be unspoken to foreigners, and later remarks that the Seguleh in Dragnipur have different principles than he does. So the bit about the Seguleh being held in readiness for the Tyrant's return could easily be just a misunderstanding/assumption on his part. That doesn't mean the Seguleh will not play an important part in the return of the last Tyrant King (or lack thereof), but their reason for leaving Darujhistan and settling on that island may not be a matter of being held in readiness.

Given Oru's quest to relciam their honour, their vow of silence, etc, I wonder if maybe when the last Tyrant King fell they retired to settle on a secluded island out of shame.

Yes thats what I was trying to say. We dont know the circumstances of the Tyrants initial demise but the Seguleh may have retired to the Island for a number of reasons. Held in readiness waiting for a sign of the Tyrants return, out of shame at not being able to help him the first time. It would be nice to know when the Seguleh 2nd actually died. With the Second being absent in MOI and the appearance of a dead Seguleh Second in TBH I assumed it was fairly recent though he may be an ancient Seguleh Second tbh.

Really looking forward to finding out.

[D'rek]

tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

D, on 12 January 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

tiam, on 11 January 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

Kind of agree with Amph here. Weve all read TBH and weve all most likely reread the Seguleh scene. The only thing thats interesting is he says things along the lines of 'the Seguleh are being held back in readiness' suggesting a level of forethought from potentially the Tyrant though this is ofc speculation. Another hint is actually in your sig in that the Second seems unaware of the location of the Seguleh, I think he even claims its madness that there is no Seguleh in the city at all, again suggesting that theyre being held in readiness but also they may have moved more recently to the Island, rather than being there traditional homeland.

The undead Seguleh 2nd is clearly a little out-of-touch with the living Seguleh's current situation, though. He is surprised there are no Seguleh in the city, surprised they still tend to be unspoken to foreigners, and later remarks that the Seguleh in Dragnipur have different principles than he does. So the bit about the Seguleh being held in readiness for the Tyrant's return could easily be just a misunderstanding/assumption on his part. That doesn't mean the Seguleh will not play an important part in the return of the last Tyrant King (or lack thereof), but their reason for leaving Darujhistan and settling on that island may not be a matter of being held in readiness.

Given Oru's quest to relciam their honour, their vow of silence, etc, I wonder if maybe when the last Tyrant King fell they retired to settle on a secluded island out of shame.

Yes thats what I was trying to say. We dont know the circumstances of the Tyrants initial demise but the Seguleh may have retired to the Island for a number of reasons. Held in readiness waiting for a sign of the Tyrants return, out of shame at not being able to help him the first time. It would be nice to know when the Seguleh 2nd actually died. With the Second being absent in MOI and the appearance of a dead Seguleh Second in TBH I assumed it was fairly recent though he may be an ancient Seguleh Second tbh.

Really looking forward to finding out.

I would say the undead Seguleh 2nd has been dead for over a thousand years.

Hood may be gone but the undead Seguleh 2nd is not. Having only seen up to the third alive in MBotF there was the possibility of the undead 2nd being still the current 2nd (via strange explanations wherein the Seguleh know when one of their upper positions is still "active" or not, be it dead or alive {and supported by the notion of them still considering Rake the 7th} ). Now we know with certainty that that is not the case. With Jan as the current 2nd, it means the undead 2nd is just some Seguleh who was at some point the 2nd and died (of course to be Hood's Soldier/Knight obviously he was pretty impressive in life).

So, considering then how odd he finds it that Seguleh are not in the city and keeping to their vow of silence plus his familiarity with the Torrud mages, he probably died before the Seguleh left Darujhistan. Given that Seguleh warriors object to sorcerous healing, they probably can't live longer than a regular mortal lifespan and so the undead 2nd would have to have lived and died around the time of the Tyrant Kings, probably the last Tyrant King (aka The Tyrant). Maybe he lived a little beyond that to see the Seguleh take up a vow of silence after the death of The Tyrant, maybe not.

So why a thousand years? Well it's really just a ball-park number I'm throwing out, but The Tyrant seems to have been the last Tyrant King of Darujhistan, and we know there was quite a lengthy succession of them. Presumably the Imperial Age of Darujhistan ended with the fall of The Tyrant, and we know that the Imperial Age was quite a long time ago - so long ago some people don't believe it even existed (see scholar Ebbin's sections). With Darujhistan being 3000 years old, I thought I'd put the Imperial Age as stretching roughly from the 1000th to 2000th year of Darujhistan's existance, and hence the undead Seguleh being (very roughly) a thousand years dead.

[tiam]

D, on 12 January 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

D, on 12 January 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

tiam, on 11 January 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Greyfrog32, on 11 January 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

If anyone want a little tid bit about whats going to happen with seguleh read pages 127-129 in the american version of bonehunters. might be slight spoilers. but at same time since its already been read i dont know if you can consider it a spoiler anyways give it a read like to hear some peoples comments about it. its the scene where cutter and clan visit a d'rek monastery. they meet a undead warrior on horseback there he has some interesting things to say and hilarious as well. love SE.

Kind of agree with Amph here. Weve all read TBH and weve all most likely reread the Seguleh scene. The only thing thats interesting is he says things along the lines of 'the Seguleh are being held back in readiness' suggesting a level of forethought from potentially the Tyrant though this is ofc speculation. Another hint is actually in your sig in that the Second seems unaware of the location of the Seguleh, I think he even claims its madness that there is no Seguleh in the city at all, again suggesting that theyre being held in readiness but also they may have moved more recently to the Island, rather than being there traditional homeland.

The undead Seguleh 2nd is clearly a little out-of-touch with the living Seguleh's current situation, though. He is surprised there are no Seguleh in the city, surprised they still tend to be unspoken to foreigners, and later remarks that the Seguleh in Dragnipur have different principles than he does. So the bit about the Seguleh being held in readiness for the Tyrant's return could easily be just a misunderstanding/assumption on his part. That doesn't mean the Seguleh will not play an important part in the return of the last Tyrant King (or lack thereof), but their reason for leaving Darujhistan and settling on that island may not be a matter of being held in readiness.

Given Oru's quest to relciam their honour, their vow of silence, etc, I wonder if maybe when the last Tyrant King fell they retired to settle on a secluded island out of shame.

Yes thats what I was trying to say. We dont know the circumstances of the Tyrants initial demise but the Seguleh may have retired to the Island for a number of reasons. Held in readiness waiting for a sign of the Tyrants return, out of shame at not being able to help him the first time. It would be nice to know when the Seguleh 2nd actually died. With the Second being absent in MOI and the appearance of a dead Seguleh Second in TBH I assumed it was fairly recent though he may be an ancient Seguleh Second tbh.

Really looking forward to finding out.

I would say the undead Seguleh 2nd has been dead for over a thousand years.

Hood may be gone but the undead Seguleh 2nd is not. Having only seen up to the third alive in MBotF there was the possibility of the undead 2nd being still the current 2nd (via strange explanations wherein the Seguleh know when one of their upper positions is still "active" or not, be it dead or alive {and supported by the notion of them still considering Rake the 7th} ). Now we know with certainty that that is not the case. With Jan as the current 2nd, it means the undead 2nd is just some Seguleh who was at some point the 2nd and died (of course to be Hood's Soldier/Knight obviously he was pretty impressive in life).

So, considering then how odd he finds it that Seguleh are not in the city and keeping to their vow of silence plus his familiarity with the Torrud mages, he probably died before the Seguleh left Darujhistan. Given that Seguleh warriors object to sorcerous healing, they probably can't live longer than a regular mortal lifespan and so the undead 2nd would have to have lived and died around the time of the Tyrant Kings, probably the last Tyrant King (aka The Tyrant). Maybe he lived a little beyond that to see the Seguleh take up a vow of silence after the death of The Tyrant, maybe not.

So why a thousand years? Well it's really just a ball-park number I'm throwing out, but The Tyrant seems to have been the last Tyrant King of Darujhistan, and we know there was quite a lengthy succession of them. Presumably the Imperial Age of Darujhistan ended with the fall of The Tyrant, and we know that the Imperial Age was quite a long time ago - so long ago some people don't believe it even existed (see scholar Ebbin's sections). With Darujhistan being 3000 years old, I thought I'd put the Imperial Age as stretching roughly from the 1000th to 2000th year of Darujhistan's existance, and hence the undead Seguleh being (very roughly) a thousand years dead.

pretty sound logic as always Drek

However as late as MOI we see that Krul mentions the Second was missing. Jan is presumably new to the role which is fine but we have a missing Seguleh Second and a rogue undead Seguleh Second. Hence (as you say) the initial leap of logic that the undead one was the missing one mentioned. However how does this tie to Skinner? Granted its plausible that over the last thousand years they have crossed blades or had some contact but based on ROTCG knowledge it would have had to have been recent as Skinner is only 100+ years old. You say we now 'know for certain that he wasnt Seguleh Second before Jan' but, while that is possible, I still think its possible for him to be the same character. As you say its guess work with the age.

I have a feeling that the undead Seguleh Second was missing, and is somehow involved with the Revenants of One Eye Cat. Units of troops sworn to Hood led by renegade Seguleh fits the bill to an extent. We know from little info we have on the situation that there was alot involved in One Eye Cat rather than simply an origin story for Humble Measure. So

- Troops led by Renegade Seguleh sworn to Hood
-Explains how the undead Seguleh became Hoods knight as he was already associated
-Linked with the CGRD thus explaining the Skinner hatred as Jorrick Sharplance was active there
-Fits the timeline well enough as the POV we see that (cant remember her name) mentions her grandfather was in the Revenants
-Explains the undead Segulehs loquaciousness as he may have been renegade to begin with.
-Dassem had been Hoods Knight for a while so its possible the Second took over from Dassem as this somewhat fits the timeline.

Dassem renounces Hood, some sort of altercation at One Eye Cat with the 'missing' Second still alive leading Hoods forces. Killed in the process, possibly by Skinner, and then becomes Hoods new Knight

Granted it takes some piecing together but the pieces kinda fit. A crazy theory ofc

I admit his comments of 'no Seguleh in the city? Madness' make little sense in this light I just think its possible unless the Revenants are solely Madrun Badrun and Co's plotline.

Though ofc it could be a mix of the two now that I think about it. Could the undead Seguleh Second have led the Revenant renegade Seguleh in Hoods name in One Eye Cat? That seems possible. Its also plausible that the Second encouraged such reneging of traditional Seguleh ways in an effort to have them serve Hood or even because of his own dislike, the disdain for Seguleh customs that shines through when he meets Crokus and Co. He could have done this with any amount of knowledge
he knew as a ancient Seguleh so its plausible enough I suppose.

As for your 'when' of the Seguleh Second- I thought D'Stan was only 2000 years old according to Baruk though Hetan (forum member) mentions some things have been changed and this may be one of them. Still, the age of the Tyrants may have only lasted around 500 years. While we dont know the nature of these Tyrants they may have had (or some of the them may have had) mortal lifespans, with the last Tyrant being something special. They seem humanoid on the coins that have been found though this ofc means little. As for lengthy succession of Tyrants I thought there was only 7, though its been many years since I read that portion of GOTM.

In anycase your probably right about the age (or atleast him being an 'ancient' Seguleh) given his lack of knowledge but I just hope the Revenant idea is picked up, unlike the fake Kazz plotline.

This post has been edited by tiam: 12 January 2012 - 09:06 PM

[D'rek]

Lots of good points in there I hadn't thought of or didn't remember...

tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

However as late as MOI we see that Krul mentions the Second was missing. Jan is presumably new to the role which is fine but we have a missing Seguleh Second and a rogue undead Seguleh Second. Hence (as you say) the initial leap of logic that the undead one was the missing one mentioned. However how does this tie to Skinner? Granted its plausible that over the last thousand years they have crossed blades or had some contact but based on ROTCG knowledge it would have had to have been recent as Skinner is only 100+ years old. You say we now 'know for certain that he wasnt Seguleh Second before Jan' but, while that is possible, I still think its possible for him to be the same character. As you say its guess work with the age.

Had totally forgotten the mention of the 2nd missing in MoI, good call.

Also I like how it furthers my crazy Jan = Senu theory.

It's interesting to note as well that the undead 2nd's feud with Skinner seems to be quite personal, not a tasked forced upon him by Hood. Though I suppose he could've been tasked with hunting down Skinner by Hood (I'm sure given Skinner's craziness Hood could have a good reason for it) and then after Skinner got the best of him in their first encounter it got personal.

tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

-Linked with the CGRD thus explaining the Skinner hatred as Jorrick Sharplance was active there

Doesn't work particularly well for the Skinner angle because the Crimson Guard on Genebackis were the (Shimmer's) 3rd Company (who packed up and left for the south side of the Assail continent around MoI so Kyle could star in RotCG), and I believe Shimmer notes in RotCG that her company hasn't run into Skinner's 1st Company (who have been around Jacuruku somewhat in the last while) in a long time.

Of course that's exactly the kind of details ICE doesn't usually comply with, but I would hope how the Jacuruku bit is from his own stories that he would match up with this one!

tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

-Dassem had been Hoods Knight for a while so its possible the Second took over from Dassem as this somewhat fits the timeline.

In tBH he was called the Soldier, and the glossaries up until then TtH said the Knight was Baudin. OTOH, TtH showed us these things are pretty interchangeable, so who knows.

tiam, on 12 January 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

As for your 'when' of the Seguleh Second- I thought D'Stan was only 2000 years old according to Baruk though Hetan (forum member) mentions some things have been changed and this may be one of them. Still, the age of the Tyrants may have only lasted around 500 years. While we dont know the nature of these Tyrants they may have had (or some of the them may have had) mortal lifespans, with the last Tyrant being something special. They seem humanoid on the coins that have been found though this ofc means little. As for lengthy succession of Tyrants I thought there was only 7, though its been many years since I read that portion of GOTM.

2000, 3000 what's the difference


I do like the idea that he lead the Revenants, it seems more meaningful and a better fit than Studious Lock (unless Studious turns out to be undead under all those bandages). But of course you could argue equally that the 2nd became associated with Hood and the Revenants before dying or raised up the Revenants as part of some job for Hood after becoming Soldier.

I think the biggest indicator for me is that he knew the long-form names of the Torrud Cabal and not knowing where the Seguleh had gone to from Darujhistan (he's surprised when Crokus says it's an island off Morn). I feel that any attempts to make that fit with him being alive in the last century means you need a reason for most of the Seguleh to have stayed in the city cavorting with the Torrud long past the Tyrant's demise, but that doesn't fit with their mysterious reputation amongst all the other Genebackii cultures as isolated and not known to be seen much outside their island.